how can the concept of darkness challenge the light?

[Seyin95 175]

Hello again! It's been awhile, anyway after replaying the series again and reflecting on the trailers, my biggest question now is regarding the concept of light and is it strong enough to withstand the darkness?

 

From the start of the series ( I'll start chronologically here with the Chi series), light has been viewed in a positive light and as both players and our characters we tend to favour the light and it is seen as worthwhile of protecting. In philosophical terms, the light represents peace, tolerance and I'd say justice. Whereas the forces of darkness are seen to bring ruin, destruction and misery to others.

 

Throughoutnthe series, light always triumphs. Whether this is merely stopping the disney villains succeeding in their plans or the overall game with the organisation being defeated. The closest the darkness has been to winning is during BBS with the fate of the Ven, Aqua and Terra, but even then the darkness did not win as X blade was destroyed and Xehanort did not win outright.

 

In relation to KH3, I think it's high time the light was challenged and perhaps even defeated ( temporaily as I'll explain). Whilst we can theorise that the seven guardians of light will be established and will probably win the new Keyblade War, I think the darkness should challenge the light like never before. I want one of either Maleficient and Pete or Xehanort to be successful. I'll explain how and why each scenario could work and how light would be challenged.

 

Let's start off with the obvious scenario and that's Xehanort. The darkness could challenge light in numerous ways, either act as a barrier to prevent the lights forming and require a change of tactics ( say one of the suspected lights cannot be saved in time for the war or despite Merlin's best efforts, Lea or Kairi isn't ready) then the darkness would have the upperhand, maybe prompting Sora to take extreme measures to bring Roxas back? Another way the Xehanort scenario could work would be that Xehanort' wins and the lights are defeated. My biggest fear would be an imbalance and I would not advocate this. However, let's say the X blade is formed and briefly darkness is in control, how would light retaliate?

 

We don't need to necessarily kill any of the lights of to have a ' dark' story, but if the war tilts towards the darkness, then in the finale of the game, we could see how light responds to facing defeat and make the victory seem hard won and justified.

 

Maleficent would be my preferred choice to tilt things towards the darkness. We know she's looking for the box and I'm banking on her finding it. The rest of this scenario depends on what is inside the box...

 

I don't think it will be the fragments of the X blade as that would be too obvious and it wouldn't make sense why Xehanort didn't try and find it througout his master hood. I'm leaning towards it either being related to the Book of Prophecies or something unexpected ( perhaps the MoMs heart?) thus when Malefiecient finds it the contents will be a surprise and present a new threat to the light. We know she isn't actively aiming to get in Sora's way, which is why having her be successful is preferred. She would present Sora with a new challenge and one which must be dealt with, consider it another arc in the game.

 

This would be a diversion from the battle with Xehanort and would be unexpected to both sides. It would be highly unlikely Xehanort had precautions in place for such an event and the light would be forced to act rashly to prevent her succeeding. Also from a plot perspective, this could be how the series continues, let's say the box opens and darkness consumes a world and during a heated battle a single heart escapes somewhere, alluding towards someone or Maleficient summons future characters to our world and one escapes and awaits their own destiny....

 

Either way, the concept of light needs to be challenged and darkness needs to have momentum. If the light wins easily, then the threat of darkness is diminished. we know the game will be darker, and people will suspect deaths, but I feel as if darkness is handled well then light can be challenged without death. In my opinion we need to see light close to expiring, we need to see those on the side of light make rash decesions and feel hopeless, likewise we need to see darkness in it's glory, if we're going with a reason for light to win, have darknes become overconfident and cause it's own defeat.

 

To conclude, the series has expanded from having the light triumph relatively easily, it's high time the concept of darkness provided a true challenge and one that should have an element of success.

[Shifter 12]

Darkness did prevail in chi/unchained and technically did in BBS and DDD.

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

Well, your argument is pretty solid, but you forget that darkness has actually had a strong hold for most of the series! 

• In Kingdom Hearts X, the Keyblade War blanketed the world in darkness and consumed countless hearts. Were it not for the hearts of children, the world would have been completely lost, so the world was restored. But the world would never be the same again.
• In Birth By Sleep, while the X-Blade was not formed, Terra, Ventus and Aqua still met their demise, and Xehanort succeeded in getting a new vessel and managed to push forward with his plans.
• In Kingdom Hearts, while Sora did defeat Ansem, he couldn't return home, he had to go find Riku and King Mickey! Thus he trudged on through darkness to go to Castle Oblivion.
• In Chain Of Memories, Sora might have won against Marluxia, but everything he had experienced there would be forgotten, and he had to be put into a deep sleep in order to regain all the memories he and his friends lost! And during that whole time, the Organization went on collecting hearts to form Kingdom Hearts, so darkness had a strong advantage.
• In 358 Days, that whole game is about the darkness winning, as its operating behind the scenes and causing discord in the worlds. Roxas' tale ended in tragedy, as his friendship with Axel and Xion crumbled, and Xion faded from memory.
• In Re:Coded, we're reminded of all the people whom have suffered because of Xehanort's ambitions, and that they still lie in slumber, awaiting to be awakened from their suffering!
• In Dream Drop Distance, Xehanort makes his intentions all the more clear, and establishes that everything has been according to plan, and that everything Sora and his friends have been through had already been decided. So darkness is as strong as ever at this point!
• In 0.2, Aqua had a chance to return to the Realm Of Light, but decided to remain the Realm Of Darkness to ensure Riku and Mickey could get out.

As you can see, darkness has been predominantly winning the entire series, with the only time light being somewhat triumphant being in Kingdom Hearts II! By all means, I want the situation in Kingdom Hearts III to be extremely dire, to the point that the heroes end up making rash decisions, as you explained! And with Nomura confirming that the game will be darker than other entries in the series, then there's some more darkness for ya!

[Komali 594]

They need to create a dark Kingdom Hearts

[Seyin95 175]

Well, your argument is pretty solid, but you forget that darkness has actually had a strong hold for most of the series! 

 

• In Kingdom Hearts X, the Keyblade War blanketed the world in darkness and consumed countless hearts. Were it not for the hearts of children, the world would have been completely lost, so the world was restored. But the world would never be the same again.
• In Birth By Sleep, while the X-Blade was not formed, Terra, Ventus and Aqua still met their demise, and Xehanort succeeded in getting a new vessel and managed to push forward with his plans.
• In Kingdom Hearts, while Sora did defeat Ansem, he couldn't return home, he had to go find Riku and King Mickey! Thus he trudged on through darkness to go to Castle Oblivion.
• In Chain Of Memories, Sora might have won against Marluxia, but everything he had experienced there would be forgotten, and he had to be put into a deep sleep in order to regain all the memories he and his friends lost! And during that whole time, the Organization went on collecting hearts to form Kingdom Hearts, so darkness had a strong advantage.
• In 358 Days, that whole game is about the darkness winning, as its operating behind the scenes and causing discord in the worlds. Roxas' tale ended in tragedy, as his friendship with Axel and Xion crumbled, and Xion faded from memory.
• In Re:Coded, we're reminded of all the people whom have suffered because of Xehanort's ambitions, and that they still lie in slumber, awaiting to be awakened from their suffering!
• In Dream Drop Distance, Xehanort makes his intentions all the more clear, and establishes that everything has been according to plan, and that everything Sora and his friends have been through had already been decided. So darkness is as strong as ever at this point!
• In 0.2, Aqua had a chance to return to the Realm Of Light, but decided to remain the Realm Of Darkness to ensure Riku and Mickey could get out.

As you can see, darkness has been predominantly winning the entire series, with the only time light being somewhat triumphant being in Kingdom Hearts II! By all means, I want the situation in Kingdom Hearts III to be extremely dire, to the point that the heroes end up making rash decisions, as you explained! And with Nomura confirming that the game will be darker than other entries in the series, then there's some more darkness for ya!

As always Transcedent Key I respect your comments however I have a few queries myself to ask.

 

First of all I'm not arguing about the Chi series, darkness did clearly win then and it would be redundant to argue against this.

 

However, I'd argue against BBS being a complete victory for the darkness, technically the light did prevail due to the fact that the fate of those who fought for the light excluding Terra made an individual choice to meet their fate. Ven chose to defeat Vanitas and Aqua chose to sacrifice herself, whilst this is not a victory for them and their fate is cruel, the darkness I would argue did not direct this path. Also as players we know all is not lost due to the fact that we know Sora, Riku and Kairi will arise and claim their places in history, therefore some of the impact ( in my opinion anyrate) is slightly lost.

 

I'll address KH1 and CoM in one paragraph, we know that the ambitions of darkness failed in both games ( yes, Xemnas succeeded in acquiring what was necessary for the Replica Program) and Sora not returning home is not the same as darkness winning. In relation to CoM, Sora made the decision to go into slumber, theoretically he could have remained awake and retained his memories, thus I wouldnt class this as a victory for darkness.

 

Skipping forward with the series to 0.2 briefly, again we are dealing with an individual choice and the decision to retain the information by Yen Sid afterwards. Whilst darkness was an obstacle, it wasn't as direct as previous instalments and I actually enjoyed how the game focused more on Aqua's self struggle than some form of Xehanort for a change!

 

In relation to what I'll dub the a organisation block ( we've already covered CoM), the darkness did indeed make ground especially in days, more so in Riku embracing the darkness to beat Roxas, but this is a rare moment where a darkness fights darkness and the concept of light did not cause this. In relation to KH2, the darkness did not have any huge victories, the Hollow Bastion forces achieved a hard fought victory and in the finale, the worlds supported Sora in order to defeat Xemnas.

 

DDD for sure has set up the scene for KH3, Xehanort's failed attempt to Nort Sora has stripped his powers and has left him weaker and the overall plot has been revealed, this is the rare occasion where Time Travel has a positive aspect, due to it enabling the darkness to re-establish themselves and prepare for the final battle, however the forces of darkness did not fully assemble and they are still short, I'd say this is a draw due to both sides knowing what is needed in order to benefit themselves.

 

Overall, I think we are more discussing different perceptions in what we class as a victory and a defeat. My overall desire is for their to be a moment/ duration of time where we can all say for certain that the ambitions of darkness have achieved a victory and there isn't a bailout for the light, add some desperation and make us appreciate the measures the lights need in order to achieve victory. Perhaps I was slightly ambitious in the manner I expressed for darkness to win! I just feel like we have a real opportunity to understand the concepts in more detail and outline how a ' dark' storykine doesn't need death!

[The Transcendent Key 12,109]

As always Transcedent Key I respect your comments however I have a few queries myself to ask.

 

First of all I'm not arguing about the Chi series, darkness did clearly win then and it would be redundant to argue against this.

 

However, I'd argue against BBS being a complete victory for the darkness, technically the light did prevail due to the fact that the fate of those who fought for the light excluding Terra made an individual choice to meet their fate. Ven chose to defeat Vanitas and Aqua chose to sacrifice herself, whilst this is not a victory for them and their fate is cruel, the darkness I would argue did not direct this path. Also as players we know all is not lost due to the fact that we know Sora, Riku and Kairi will arise and claim their places in history, therefore some of the impact ( in my opinion anyrate) is slightly lost.

 

I'll address KH1 and CoM in one paragraph, we know that the ambitions of darkness failed in both games ( yes, Xemnas succeeded in acquiring what was necessary for the Replica Program) and Sora not returning home is not the same as darkness winning. In relation to CoM, Sora made the decision to go into slumber, theoretically he could have remained awake and retained his memories, thus I wouldnt class this as a victory for darkness.

 

Skipping forward with the series to 0.2 briefly, again we are dealing with an individual choice and the decision to retain the information by Yen Sid afterwards. Whilst darkness was an obstacle, it wasn't as direct as previous instalments and I actually enjoyed how the game focused more on Aqua's self struggle than some form of Xehanort for a change!

 

In relation to what I'll dub the a organisation block ( we've already covered CoM), the darkness did indeed make ground especially in days, more so in Riku embracing the darkness to beat Roxas, but this is a rare moment where a darkness fights darkness and the concept of light did not cause this. In relation to KH2, the darkness did not have any huge victories, the Hollow Bastion forces achieved a hard fought victory and in the finale, the worlds supported Sora in order to defeat Xemnas.

 

DDD for sure has set up the scene for KH3, Xehanort's failed attempt to Nort Sora has stripped his powers and has left him weaker and the overall plot has been revealed, this is the rare occasion where Time Travel has a positive aspect, due to it enabling the darkness to re-establish themselves and prepare for the final battle, however the forces of darkness did not fully assemble and they are still short, I'd say this is a draw due to both sides knowing what is needed in order to benefit themselves.

 

Overall, I think we are more discussing different perceptions in what we class as a victory and a defeat. My overall desire is for their to be a moment/ duration of time where we can all say for certain that the ambitions of darkness have achieved a victory and there isn't a bailout for the light, add some desperation and make us appreciate the measures the lights need in order to achieve victory. Perhaps I was slightly ambitious in the manner I expressed for darkness to win! I just feel like we have a real opportunity to understand the concepts in more detail and outline how a ' dark' storykine doesn't need death!

 

Once again, you make very solid points! When looking upon it that way, I can now understand what you mean. It would be very satisfying to see the heroes in a very dire situation! I think that something along the likes with which you could compare this is Final Fantasy VI! In that game, Kefka Palazzo, the villain, actually succeeds in destroying the world and screwing everything over, so think about this, but happening in Kingdom Hearts! The worlds being blanketed by darkness and a chunk of the game having the heroes desperately fight to make things right before all is lost! I can definitely see something this tense happening! And while I agree that there doesn't have to be death to make a story dark, odds are at least one or two lights will meet their demise...so that's gonna be something! O.O

[Smithee 327]

Darkness has already had some large (though not complete) successes in BBS, DDD, and Chi.

 

I, for one, am burned out from all the Bittersweet/Downer Endings.