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33 minutes ago, Aqua_Wren said:

The graveyard was not created in union cross at all, when KHUX starts, the war has already come and passed and the dandelions have fled to the unchained realm. The KHUX simulation goes over the events that lead to the war, but bypasses the war itself while the Dandelions have their memory of it occurring erased. I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what the similation with these data worlds and the unchained realm and such is actually FOR according to the Master of Masters, and the new union leaders. It wasn't to study those events, it was to essentially brainwash the dandelions (other than the new union leaders) into forgetting the war ever took place.

Sorry I didn't word myself properly back there

I didn't mean that it was created in UX, but like you said, that it happened just like you said, UX goes over what leads to the war and unlike Chi it continues after that you could say that UX contains Chi itself, as it is a recreation, seen like:

(KHUX(KHChi))

I think the fact the new union leaders weren't subject to that brainwashing is pretty compelling, if we (bear with me) that at least half of them (Ven, Strelitzia and Lariam) are "real" people added into a simulated world it would be pretty easy to brainwash the others, who are essencially NPCs into forgetting the war

Also as a sidenote, Ven's choice for being selected to be a dandelion leader makes a lot of sense since they were chosen by Ava because they were less likely to give in to darkness, (this makes even more sense for the case of Ventus being placed in UX during his comatose state when Vanitas was created, he would be a good test subject since showed that reluctance to give into darkness even at the cost of his life)

I understand where you are coming from, and I admit that I'm no expert in the Chi/UX lore (that's why I try to supplement the gaps with what we've seen characters do in games like KH2 & BBS) my main problem with the idea that they were all originally from the past and they went into stasis to get to the present (via the pods, the realm of darkness or another medium) is that it doesn't help answer the question, "Why?" it all becomes "Because the Master of Master saw it/said it" (again, a character who we know nothing about so he can do anything) that's why I like the idea of it all being Ansem's research, something that has been built up for over a decade, even the latest Final Battle trailer (which came AFTER I started this whole thing lol) The exchange betwen both Ansems at 2:23

"I have created enough victims"

"All of the children sacrificed in the name of YOUR RESEARCH"

some people may attribute that line to the time when the apprentices lost their hearts and became nobodies but first they were not children, and second it wasn't Ansem's research (he prohibited Xehanort to continue the research into hearts and darkness), that's why I belive that line talks about something else a controlled scenario where children were in danger AKA UX is the only other event that fits

 

Sorry if this seemed a little all over the place I'm at work and writting this as is in my brain without a lot of time to properly organize it lol

 

 

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2 hours ago, corpiman said:

Sorry I didn't word myself properly back there

I didn't mean that it was created in UX, but like you said, that it happened just like you said, UX goes over what leads to the war and unlike Chi it continues after that you could say that UX contains Chi itself, as it is a recreation, seen like:

(KHUX(KHChi))

I think the fact the new union leaders weren't subject to that brainwashing is pretty compelling, if we (bear with me) that at least half of them (Ven, Strelitzia and Lariam) are "real" people added into a simulated world it would be pretty easy to brainwash the others, who are essencially NPCs into forgetting the war

Also as a sidenote, Ven's choice for being selected to be a dandelion leader makes a lot of sense since they were chosen by Ava because they were less likely to give in to darkness, (this makes even more sense for the case of Ventus being placed in UX during his comatose state when Vanitas was created, he would be a good test subject since showed that reluctance to give into darkness even at the cost of his life)

I understand where you are coming from, and I admit that I'm no expert in the Chi/UX lore (that's why I try to supplement the gaps with what we've seen characters do in games like KH2 & BBS) my main problem with the idea that they were all originally from the past and they went into stasis to get to the present (via the pods, the realm of darkness or another medium) is that it doesn't help answer the question, "Why?" it all becomes "Because the Master of Master saw it/said it" (again, a character who we know nothing about so he can do anything) that's why I like the idea of it all being Ansem's research, something that has been built up for over a decade, even the latest Final Battle trailer (which came AFTER I started this whole thing lol) The exchange betwen both Ansems at 2:23

"I have created enough victims"

"All of the children sacrificed in the name of YOUR RESEARCH"

some people may attribute that line to the time when the apprentices lost their hearts and became nobodies but first they were not children, and second it wasn't Ansem's research (he prohibited Xehanort to continue the research into hearts and darkness), that's why I belive that line talks about something else a controlled scenario where children were in danger AKA UX is the only other event that fits

 

Sorry if this seemed a little all over the place I'm at work and writting this as is in my brain without a lot of time to properly organize it lol

 

 

 

Ok, so, the issue with all this is that in order for KHUX to be a present day simulation. It has to be a present day simulation of the simulated worlds that appeared in the actual past. Regardless of your theory, KHUX -definitely- happened at some point, essentially exactly how it is presented, in the past immediately after the Keyblade War. Your theory only really works at all if you're literally arguing that Ansem created a simulation of a simulation of the real war. KHUX is -explicitly- not a remake of Chi, it is a sequel. Chi happens, and then KHUX happens directly and immediately after it according to the Master of Masters orders that Ava then passed on to the new Union Leaders, before the Keyblade War took place.

 

At some point, most definitely in the past, Strelitzia was a real person who lived before the war and wanted to save the player character of Chi (Who is also the player character of KHUX afterwards) and then died and was replaced by one of the union leaders BEFORE the war took place.

 

At some point, -directly- before the war, the real Dandelions fled to the unchained realm, and had the replacement union leaders working with the Chirithy to erase the Dandelions memories of the war ever taking place. With the Dandelions reliving the events that led up to the war, but having their memories erased regarding it actually happen.

 

At some point, the Dandelions plucked the Player character of the original Chi into the unchained realm to join them anyway, thus starting off KHUX as they too are in that dream simulation thing.

 

These are all canon facts that have been definitively established as to the nature of KHUX and adding yet another layer of simulation on this would just go too far even for Kingdom Hearts in my opinion.

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19 minutes ago, Aqua_Wren said:

Ok, so, the issue with all this is that in order for KHUX to be a present day simulation. It has to be a present day simulation of the simulated worlds that appeared in the actual past. Regardless of your theory, KHUX -definitely- happened at some point, essentially exactly how it is presented, in the past immediately after the Keyblade War. Your theory only really works at all if you're literally arguing that Ansem created a simulation of a simulation of the real war. KHUX is -explicitly- not a remake of Chi, it is a sequel. Chi happens, and then KHUX happens directly and immediately after it according to the Master of Masters orders that Ava then passed on to the new Union Leaders, before the Keyblade War took place.

How are you so sure that KHUX -definitely- happened? my argument it didn't, I never said it was a remake, I know it is a sequel, but it is a sequel that inside it contains the events of Chi and expands upon them, there has only been 1 true keyblade war, it was the one in chi which is then simulated in UX but no worlds were truly destroyed 

KH Chi happens-> war-> the worlds are consumed, separated and eventually restored by light-> "modern" era-> ansem, studying the past, creates the simulation, UX.

please tell me where I can find the evidence that prooves that KHUX truly happened, in the real world, I know about MoM's orders to Ava but I don't see how that connects it, I will gladly check out whatever reference you throw my way I'm not trying to just be stubborn and pretend I am 100% right and have all the answers lol, hell for all we know the black box contains a CPU that houses the simulation for UX I dunno

My whole theory started by asking myself "What IS ansem's research?" that's how I eventually reached UX, not the other way around by analizing the clues of creating digital simulations, adding people to them, the decor of the old mansion connecting to the factions, the lines said in trailers, epilogues like DDD & BBS, and the fact that it is knowledge that will in the end help Sora save everyone and what better knowledge to save people & prevent a new keyblade war, than knowledge from the previous war

So instead of just saying "it was like this, not like this" I ask you, What do YOU think is Ansem's Research? maybe we'll find the answer together

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2 minutes ago, corpiman said:

How are you so sure that KHUX -definitely- happened? my argument it didn't, I never said it was a remake, I know it is a sequel, but it is a sequel that inside it contains the events of Chi and expands upon them, there has only been 1 true keyblade war, it was the one in chi which is then simulated in UX but no worlds were truly destroyed 

KH Chi happens-> war-> the worlds are consumed, separated and eventually restored by light-> "modern" era-> ansem, studying the past, creates the simulation, UX.

please tell me where I can find the evidence that prooves that KHUX truly happened, in the real world, I know about MoM's orders to Ava but I don't see how that connects it, I will gladly check out whatever reference you throw my way I'm not trying to just be stubborn and pretend I am 100% right and have all the answers lol, hell for all we know the black box contains a CPU that houses the simulation for UX I dunno

My whole theory started by asking myself "What IS ansem's research?" that's how I eventually reached UX, not the other way around by analizing the clues of creating digital simulations, adding people to them, the decor of the old mansion connecting to the factions, the lines said in trailers, epilogues like DDD & BBS, and the fact that it is knowledge that will in the end help Sora save everyone and what better knowledge to save people & prevent a new keyblade war, than knowledge from the previous war

So instead of just saying "it was like this, not like this" I ask you, What do YOU think is Ansem's Research? maybe we'll find the answer together

I think a more likely culprit for what Ansem's research was, would be the research into darkness and the Heartless. Ansem Seeker of Darkness mentioned "children sacrificed IN THE NAME of your research." Keep in mind that his apprentices continued his research even after betraying and banishing him.

He wouldn't actually have to be directly involved in the children being sacrificed even, it could have been that his was only the original ideas, the seed that led to such things happening. It would still be in the name of his research even if he is not personally responsible if they were carrying on something he started and theorized about. Who knows how many people they sacrificed and experimented on while studying the Heartless and creating the emblem heartless... children could have easily been among that number, and in large quantity.

 

 

I am certain that KHUX definitely happened for real in some form because...

The player was in both Chi and KHUX and certainly doesn't seem like a data recreation to me. They're even having memories of the war crop up in their nightmares, and of fighting Aced, things that Ansem wouldn't need and wouldn't make any sense if they were just an original creation and NPC created as a blank slate.

The union leaders met in the Keyblade Graveyard in the real world just after the war -as they were ordered to explicitly by Ava- (that's important, regardless of a simulation going on, we have 5 people who were ordered in the time of Chi to meet after the war, in the place where the war took place.) when the Keyblade Graveyard shouldn't even be there if it's just a modern day recreation.

Ephemer was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having met with Ava during Chi, who was told to help set up KHUX right after the war to deal with the Dandelions remembering the Keyblade War.

Strelitzia was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having tried to save the player before the war occured. (And considering she's Lauriams sister... what reason would Ansem the Wise have to brainwash him into thinking someone from the past was his sister when he didn't actually have one?) And she was also assinated and replaced during the time of Chi, before the war took place, making one of the other replacement union leaders also definitively from the past.

The Dandelions were already departing to the unchained realm -during- Chi, there would be no reason for such a large time gap and if the ones in your proposed Ansem simulation existed and were just copies... then that wouldn't explain where the real Dandelions went unless Ansem somehow found out about them and... again... created a simulation of a simulation.

We already have a good, solid reason for the simulation to exist just after the war. To erase the Dandelions memories of the war so that they can live on and have a fresh start without being weighed down by such a horrible tragedy in the past. With the union leaders chosen from the Dandelions to lead in the foretellers place. There's no -reason- to suddenly say "no the real reason was that Ansem the Wise was studying the Keyblade War and created a simulation of... the aftermath of it."

 

I understand that your theory has a certain elegance to it, that you might -want- it to be true, but it's just not credible to me compared to the evidence before us that suggests that KHUX is exactly as it seems. The story of what happened to the Dandelions just after they fled the war.

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1 hour ago, Aqua_Wren said:

I think a more likely culprit for what Ansem's research was, would be the research into darkness and the Heartless. Ansem Seeker of Darkness mentioned "children sacrificed IN THE NAME of your research." Keep in mind that his apprentices continued his research even after betraying and banishing him.

He wouldn't actually have to be directly involved in the children being sacrificed even, it could have been that his was only the original ideas, the seed that led to such things happening. It would still be in the name of his research even if he is not personally responsible if they were carrying on something he started and theorized about. Who knows how many people they sacrificed and experimented on while studying the Heartless and creating the emblem heartless... children could have easily been among that number, and in large quantity.

 

 

I am certain that KHUX definitely happened for real in some form because...

The player was in both Chi and KHUX and certainly doesn't seem like a data recreation to me. They're even having memories of the war crop up in their nightmares, and of fighting Aced, things that Ansem wouldn't need and wouldn't make any sense if they were just an original creation and NPC created as a blank slate.

The union leaders met in the Keyblade Graveyard in the real world just after the war -as they were ordered to explicitly by Ava- (that's important, regardless of a simulation going on, we have 5 people who were ordered in the time of Chi to meet after the war, in the place where the war took place.) when the Keyblade Graveyard shouldn't even be there if it's just a modern day recreation.

Ephemer was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having met with Ava during Chi, who was told to help set up KHUX right after the war to deal with the Dandelions remembering the Keyblade War.

Strelitzia was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having tried to save the player before the war occured. (And considering she's Lauriams sister... what reason would Ansem the Wise have to brainwash him into thinking someone from the past was his sister when he didn't actually have one?) And she was also assinated and replaced during the time of Chi, before the war took place, making one of the other replacement union leaders also definitively from the past.

The Dandelions were already departing to the unchained realm -during- Chi, there would be no reason for such a large time gap and if the ones in your proposed Ansem simulation existed and were just copies... then that wouldn't explain where the real Dandelions went unless Ansem somehow found out about them and... again... created a simulation of a simulation.

We already have a good, solid reason for the simulation to exist just after the war. To erase the Dandelions memories of the war so that they can live on and have a fresh start without being weighed down by such a horrible tragedy in the past. With the union leaders chosen from the Dandelions to lead in the foretellers place. There's no -reason- to suddenly say "no the real reason was that Ansem the Wise was studying the Keyblade War and created a simulation of... the aftermath of it."

 

I understand that your theory has a certain elegance to it, that you might -want- it to be true, but it's just not credible to me compared to the evidence before us that suggests that KHUX is exactly as it seems. The story of what happened to the Dandelions just after they fled the war.

No no ha ha

As I said quite before, Ansem SoD doesn't mean the research into darkness & hearts for many reasons

As I said before the apprentices, other than maybe Ienzo, weren't children, even by the time of BBS all of them are already adults, in the reports and cutscenes during KH2 it's shown how Ansem strictly prohibited to continue that research, after that point it was because of apprentice Xehanort hubris that they lied, betrayed him and continued the research, it wasn't done in his name or was his research after that, Ansem The wise wouldn't have any reason to feel guilty for what happened to them after that, in fact he pretty much hated them he literally said how he was driven by vengeance, it doesn't make sense for Ansem SoD to chastise him over that think about it

let's I tell you "hey let's play with knives" so we start doing it, but then I realize that it could be pretty dangerous so I decide we shouldn't do that any more and lock the knives away and tell you to not do it any more, but later at night you sneak to the kitches, grab the knives and cut yourself playing, would you really tell me it was my fault even though I told you not to do it, hid the knives, and you decided on your on will that you wanted to keep playing?

it doesn't make sense

Also your point about the research causing the creation of heartless by sacrificing people, why would Ansem SoD would specifically say "Children" tho? why not all the people sacrificed in the name of your research? so he was just trying to taunt AnsemTW to feel even worse? its just too specific wording to just be nothing, and again WHY would AnsemSoD would taunt him about making them lose their hearts, that's exactly what HE wanted someone like Sai'x maybe, but Xehanort got what he wanted he never showed dislike about being a heartless or Xemnas being a nobody (he wanted kingdom hearts not to be human again, but for power and to control the other nobodies)

Ansem The wise HATED that reseach into hearts and darkness, it made him lose everything, why would he ever put that inside Sora "as a mean of clearing his concience" and now say it's a clue to "finding yourself or your lost friends in your hour of need" that doesn't sound anything like what the research into hearts and darkness, remember in the reports how Ansem pretty much gives that because he realizes the heart is much more complex than anything else and he can't just try to learn and control it and it's darkness that's why he stops

Also I never said Strelitzia Ephemer and the other special dandelions were fake, (We really don't know much about the likes of Ephemer, Brain & Skuld so that's why I didn't include them, but they could be real or not, doesn't matter) Strelitzia is real, she IS the reason Lauriam went into UX as well, her death is real, her dying in the simulation killed her just as much as if she died in the real world, just like Roxas was in danger from the attacks of nobodies at the begining of KH2

To me the player character both in Chi and UX is totally irrelevant, is just an avatar for the player that's why he doesn't get a backstory or lines (other than literally 1 time, last time I checked) he is just a way for the player to interact with the world, nothing would really change if he existed or not his dreams could be interpreted as foreshadowing in order to entice the player to keep playing.... you know considering you sometime have to play dozens of quests for a bit of story progression

And if we go back to the Master of Masters and Ava as you have pointed many times, the purpose of the dandelions wasn't just to survive, they were meant to survive to restore the world, WHY would they be taken to another realm then?

In summary,

There is a BUNCH of reasons from multiple sources along with common sense that point that the research ansem hid inside Sora is not the one that created the heartless

The dandelion leaders are real At least Strelitzia Lariam and Ventus, Elrena obviously too, even tho she isn't a dandelion they were the test subjects Ansem used, probably some voluntary, some not, that's why they appear out of the blue

Also, point about UX being "real" remember when she tried to travel back in time to undo her defeat she was specifically trapped in UX so she couldn't tamper with the real past, UX existed in the distant past, there wouldn't be a version of her to exist there she couldn't have time traveled to that era then 

To me the evidence, not only from Chi/UX but from ALL the games points to something else, and gives more justifications to the actions other than "they were brought to fight and then had them forget the fight took place" the master of masters was always adamant that the world was going to be engulfed in darkness, he wanted said that maaaybe they could save it if they gathered enough lux, that's why he like "Ok Ava, everyone's gonna die, gather people that can resist darkness so they can give the world a second chance AFTER it all goes down" 

As I said I don't claim to be 100% right and there are still a lot of loose ends, The Box, Luxu, the master of masters himself etc. but I have found the most amount of evidence pointing in that direction, its not that I just like Ansem and want to give him all the credit

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8 hours ago, Aqua_Wren said:

I think a more likely culprit for what Ansem's research was, would be the research into darkness and the Heartless. Ansem Seeker of Darkness mentioned "children sacrificed IN THE NAME of your research." Keep in mind that his apprentices continued his research even after betraying and banishing him.

He wouldn't actually have to be directly involved in the children being sacrificed even, it could have been that his was only the original ideas, the seed that led to such things happening. It would still be in the name of his research even if he is not personally responsible if they were carrying on something he started and theorized about. Who knows how many people they sacrificed and experimented on while studying the Heartless and creating the emblem heartless... children could have easily been among that number, and in large quantity.

 

 

I am certain that KHUX definitely happened for real in some form because...

The player was in both Chi and KHUX and certainly doesn't seem like a data recreation to me. They're even having memories of the war crop up in their nightmares, and of fighting Aced, things that Ansem wouldn't need and wouldn't make any sense if they were just an original creation and NPC created as a blank slate.

The union leaders met in the Keyblade Graveyard in the real world just after the war -as they were ordered to explicitly by Ava- (that's important, regardless of a simulation going on, we have 5 people who were ordered in the time of Chi to meet after the war, in the place where the war took place.) when the Keyblade Graveyard shouldn't even be there if it's just a modern day recreation.

Ephemer was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having met with Ava during Chi, who was told to help set up KHUX right after the war to deal with the Dandelions remembering the Keyblade War.

Strelitzia was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having tried to save the player before the war occured. (And considering she's Lauriams sister... what reason would Ansem the Wise have to brainwash him into thinking someone from the past was his sister when he didn't actually have one?) And she was also assassinated and replaced during the time of Chi, before the war took place, making one of the other replacement union leaders also definitively from the past.

The Dandelions were already departing to the unchained realm -during- Chi, there would be no reason for such a large time gap and if the ones in your proposed Ansem simulation existed and were just copies... then that wouldn't explain where the real Dandelions went unless Ansem somehow found out about them and... again... created a simulation of a simulation.

We already have a good, solid reason for the simulation to exist just after the war. To erase the Dandelions memories of the war so that they can live on and have a fresh start without being weighed down by such a horrible tragedy in the past. With the union leaders chosen from the Dandelions to lead in the foretellers place. There's no -reason- to suddenly say "no the real reason was that Ansem the Wise was studying the Keyblade War and created a simulation of... the aftermath of it."

 

I understand that your theory has a certain elegance to it, that you might -want- it to be true, but it's just not credible to me compared to the evidence before us that suggests that KHUX is exactly as it seems. The story of what happened to the Dandelions just after they fled the war.

But couldn't Strelitzia be some sort of memory from Lauriam's mind.  Maybe, it was a stimulation that has some influence from the kids placed in it.  Maybe, they are unconsciously influencing their environment and it is somehow affecting the stimulation, sort of distorting it.  And, we don't know how long ago UX took place, some say a 100 years ago while others say a millennia ago.  Maybe, some of the Dandelion Leaders are just mere projections from Ventus, Lauriam, and Strelitzia's minds.

There has also been some theory about Ava being Kairi's grandma.  Maybe, she got put into the stimulation.  Perhaps, her memories from her time as a Union Leader from say a century ago played a part in simulation.  It's kind of bonkers though.  Why would Ansem the Wise much less the apprentices waste their resources on some random old lady that has only appeared a few times in the series? 

Maybe the simulation is all based upon her perspective.  Xehanort could have started up the simulation again after banishing Ansem the Wise and used it as a way of kidnapping Kairi.

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9 hours ago, ienzo628 said:

But couldn't Strelitzia be some sort of memory from Lauriam's mind.  Maybe, it was a stimulation that has some influence from the kids placed in it.  Maybe, they are unconsciously influencing their environment and it is somehow affecting the stimulation, sort of distorting it.  And, we don't know how long ago UX took place, some say a 100 years ago while others say a millennia ago.  Maybe, some of the Dandelion Leaders are just mere projections from Ventus, Lauriam, and Strelitzia's minds.

There has also been some theory about Ava being Kairi's grandma.  Maybe, she got put into the stimulation.  Perhaps, her memories from her time as a Union Leader from say a century ago played a part in simulation.  It's kind of bonkers though.  Why would Ansem the Wise much less the apprentices waste their resources on some random old lady that has only appeared a few times in the series? 

Maybe the simulation is all based upon her perspective.  Xehanort could have started up the simulation again after banishing Ansem the Wise and used it as a way of kidnapping Kairi.

I don't know it wouldn't make much sense, first because we see her interact with other characters, there's moments with just herself and he was introduced way before Lauriam, I truly believe that she when into the simulation and the Lauriam went after her, maybe wanting to make sure no harm comes to her (and obviously failed) and with the other Leaders, we still lack a lot on info to make an informed guess about them (I'm sure there's people that believe that Brain is a Xehanort because he is the "Brain" of the bad guys, or something like that) 

Yeah I've heard about the theory on Kairi's grandma, but I think its more of a joke, her grandma was pretty much created just to narrate the story she is a pretty generic old lady, I believe the era of fairy tales, aka Chi and the setting of UX took place longer than 100 years ago, maybe not 1000 but long enough for official records on that time to not exist anymore, only in the way of, well... fairy tales which could very much distort the truth each time they are told

But again, my claim is that while the setting inside UX is of the distant past, UX itself was created fairly recently, no more than a couple decades. 

Regarding your last point, I don't think Xehanort would mess with the simulation after banishing Ansem, he was busy trying to get to Kingdom Hearts since by them he had become a heartless, but I do think there's a possiblity that Ansem the Wise's banishment was what allowed Maleficent to escape that digital realm and return in time for KH2

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4 hours ago, corpiman said:

I don't know it wouldn't make much sense, first because we see her interact with other characters, there's moments with just herself and he was introduced way before Lauriam, I truly believe that she when into the simulation and the Lauriam went after her, maybe wanting to make sure no harm comes to her (and obviously failed) and with the other Leaders, we still lack a lot on info to make an informed guess about them (I'm sure there's people that believe that Brain is a Xehanort because he is the "Brain" of the bad guys, or something like that) 

Yeah I've heard about the theory on Kairi's grandma, but I think its more of a joke, her grandma was pretty much created just to narrate the story she is a pretty generic old lady, I believe the era of fairy tales, aka Chi and the setting of UX took place longer than 100 years ago, maybe not 1000 but long enough for official records on that time to not exist anymore, only in the way of, well... fairy tales which could very much distort the truth each time they are told

But again, my claim is that while the setting inside UX is of the distant past, UX itself was created fairly recently, no more than a couple decades. 

Regarding your last point, I don't think Xehanort would mess with the simulation after banishing Ansem, he was busy trying to get to Kingdom Hearts since by them he had become a heartless, but I do think there's a possiblity that Ansem the Wise's banishment was what allowed Maleficent to escape that digital realm and return in time for KH2

Probably.   I just think that perhaps the simulation could hold some weight.   We don't know who the kid were playing as is or how they are important to the plot.   Why did they get dragged along and what about those other kids we interact with such as the boy with Moogle head?  Is he and his guide real or part of the simulation? 

It would be kind of insulting for Lauriam to go into the simulation, thinking he can save his sister, only to realize she as never real to begin with. 

But the simulation could work similar to CO in that memories impact the rooms Sora and Riku ventured into. 

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21 hours ago, corpiman said:

No no ha ha

As I said quite before, Ansem SoD doesn't mean the research into darkness & hearts for many reasons

As I said before the apprentices, other than maybe Ienzo, weren't children, even by the time of BBS all of them are already adults, in the reports and cutscenes during KH2 it's shown how Ansem strictly prohibited to continue that research, after that point it was because of apprentice Xehanort hubris that they lied, betrayed him and continued the research, it wasn't done in his name or was his research after that, Ansem The wise wouldn't have any reason to feel guilty for what happened to them after that, in fact he pretty much hated them he literally said how he was driven by vengeance, it doesn't make sense for Ansem SoD to chastise him over that think about it

let's I tell you "hey let's play with knives" so we start doing it, but then I realize that it could be pretty dangerous so I decide we shouldn't do that any more and lock the knives away and tell you to not do it any more, but later at night you sneak to the kitches, grab the knives and cut yourself playing, would you really tell me it was my fault even though I told you not to do it, hid the knives, and you decided on your on will that you wanted to keep playing?

it doesn't make sense

Also your point about the research causing the creation of heartless by sacrificing people, why would Ansem SoD would specifically say "Children" tho? why not all the people sacrificed in the name of your research? so he was just trying to taunt AnsemTW to feel even worse? its just too specific wording to just be nothing, and again WHY would AnsemSoD would taunt him about making them lose their hearts, that's exactly what HE wanted someone like Sai'x maybe, but Xehanort got what he wanted he never showed dislike about being a heartless or Xemnas being a nobody (he wanted kingdom hearts not to be human again, but for power and to control the other nobodies)

Ansem The wise HATED that reseach into hearts and darkness, it made him lose everything, why would he ever put that inside Sora "as a mean of clearing his concience" and now say it's a clue to "finding yourself or your lost friends in your hour of need" that doesn't sound anything like what the research into hearts and darkness, remember in the reports how Ansem pretty much gives that because he realizes the heart is much more complex than anything else and he can't just try to learn and control it and it's darkness that's why he stops

Also I never said Strelitzia Ephemer and the other special dandelions were fake, (We really don't know much about the likes of Ephemer, Brain & Skuld so that's why I didn't include them, but they could be real or not, doesn't matter) Strelitzia is real, she IS the reason Lauriam went into UX as well, her death is real, her dying in the simulation killed her just as much as if she died in the real world, just like Roxas was in danger from the attacks of nobodies at the begining of KH2

To me the player character both in Chi and UX is totally irrelevant, is just an avatar for the player that's why he doesn't get a backstory or lines (other than literally 1 time, last time I checked) he is just a way for the player to interact with the world, nothing would really change if he existed or not his dreams could be interpreted as foreshadowing in order to entice the player to keep playing.... you know considering you sometime have to play dozens of quests for a bit of story progression

And if we go back to the Master of Masters and Ava as you have pointed many times, the purpose of the dandelions wasn't just to survive, they were meant to survive to restore the world, WHY would they be taken to another realm then?

In summary,

There is a BUNCH of reasons from multiple sources along with common sense that point that the research ansem hid inside Sora is not the one that created the heartless

The dandelion leaders are real At least Strelitzia Lariam and Ventus, Elrena obviously too, even tho she isn't a dandelion they were the test subjects Ansem used, probably some voluntary, some not, that's why they appear out of the blue

Also, point about UX being "real" remember when she tried to travel back in time to undo her defeat she was specifically trapped in UX so she couldn't tamper with the real past, UX existed in the distant past, there wouldn't be a version of her to exist there she couldn't have time traveled to that era then 

To me the evidence, not only from Chi/UX but from ALL the games points to something else, and gives more justifications to the actions other than "they were brought to fight and then had them forget the fight took place" the master of masters was always adamant that the world was going to be engulfed in darkness, he wanted said that maaaybe they could save it if they gathered enough lux, that's why he like "Ok Ava, everyone's gonna die, gather people that can resist darkness so they can give the world a second chance AFTER it all goes down" 

As I said I don't claim to be 100% right and there are still a lot of loose ends, The Box, Luxu, the master of masters himself etc. but I have found the most amount of evidence pointing in that direction, its not that I just like Ansem and want to give him all the credit

Thing is, it absolutely does make sense that Ansem Seeker of Darkness would just be referring to the Heartless experiments. People blame others for things that aren't strictly their fault all the time. And in a warped sort of way it does make sense to blame him for something that was "totally all just in your name."

Remember how Xemnas called Ansem the Wise the source of all heartless in KH2? And pointed out that his research is what inspired him to go farther than ever? Said that he was simply carrying on what he began? And Ansem the Wise didn't even deny it, said that his disregard had brought chaos to many worlds.

People aren't always purely logical, especially when it comes to guilt.

 

The Dandelions would be taken to another realm so that they wouldn't be around when the world was plunged into darkness? That's pretty obvious.

 

There's a version of Maleficent in the distant past though, the data version of her that existed in that world.

 

Strelitzia CANNOT have died in the simulation is the problem here. She died before the Keyblade War began, before Chi was over. Remember, Elrena's Chirithy (And the Chirithy are all fully aware of the war having happened) mentions that the last time they saw Strelitzia (or her Chirithy) was "before the bell." which means before the war, the bell is what kicked off the war to begin with. Saying she could be real and died in the simulation fails to understand that she was real during the time of Chi. Just like Ephemer and Skuld.

 

The Union Leaders have also been shown to be capable of directly accessing and manipulating the data of the KHUX simulations, taking the data of various players and turning it into enemies for you to fight in PvP. There's no need for Ansem to be around when they're already the ones controlling it. Especially given that it's explicitly the Book of Prophecies that's projecting the worlds for the players in Chi (and later the dandelions in KHUX) to traipse around in.

The timeline also doesn't really make sense to me, Birth By Sleep was a few years after Ventus was brought to the Land of Departure, which was just after his heart was fractured. Ansem the wise MOST CERTAINLY did not know enough about the keyblade and the heart to be messing around with stuff then, Apprentice Xehanorts arrival is what inspired him to start studying Heartless, Darkness, and the Heart. It's true that he had some experience with data beforehand in the form of Trons world, but studying the Keyblade War -is- to study the Heart and the darkness within it.

Frankly, I think you're just cherry picking the evidence at this point while ignoring anything and everything that doesn't fit and will be proven wrong either when KH3 drops or when KHUX gets farther in the story, so I'm just gonna leave this conversation. We'll see who's right soon enough. If either of us are, lol. From past experiences given Nomura's love of pulling plot points from thin air, there's a better than even chance it's actually something entirely unforeseen and nothing to do with anything already in the games.

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8 hours ago, Aqua_Wren said:

Thing is, it absolutely does make sense that Ansem Seeker of Darkness would just be referring to the Heartless experiments. People blame others for things that aren't strictly their fault all the time. And in a warped sort of way it does make sense to blame him for something that was "totally all just in your name."

Remember how Xemnas called Ansem the Wise the source of all heartless in KH2? And pointed out that his research is what inspired him to go farther than ever? Said that he was simply carrying on what he began? And Ansem the Wise didn't even deny it, said that his disregard had brought chaos to many worlds.

People aren't always purely logical, especially when it comes to guilt.

 

The Dandelions would be taken to another realm so that they wouldn't be around when the world was plunged into darkness? That's pretty obvious.

 

There's a version of Maleficent in the distant past though, the data version of her that existed in that world.

 

Strelitzia CANNOT have died in the simulation is the problem here. She died before the Keyblade War began, before Chi was over. Remember, Elrena's Chirithy (And the Chirithy are all fully aware of the war having happened) mentions that the last time they saw Strelitzia (or her Chirithy) was "before the bell." which means before the war, the bell is what kicked off the war to begin with. Saying she could be real and died in the simulation fails to understand that she was real during the time of Chi. Just like Ephemer and Skuld.

 

The Union Leaders have also been shown to be capable of directly accessing and manipulating the data of the KHUX simulations, taking the data of various players and turning it into enemies for you to fight in PvP. There's no need for Ansem to be around when they're already the ones controlling it. Especially given that it's explicitly the Book of Prophecies that's projecting the worlds for the players in Chi (and later the dandelions in KHUX) to traipse around in.

The timeline also doesn't really make sense to me, Birth By Sleep was a few years after Ventus was brought to the Land of Departure, which was just after his heart was fractured. Ansem the wise MOST CERTAINLY did not know enough about the keyblade and the heart to be messing around with stuff then, Apprentice Xehanorts arrival is what inspired him to start studying Heartless, Darkness, and the Heart. It's true that he had some experience with data beforehand in the form of Trons world, but studying the Keyblade War -is- to study the Heart and the darkness within it.

Frankly, I think you're just cherry picking the evidence at this point while ignoring anything and everything that doesn't fit and will be proven wrong either when KH3 drops or when KHUX gets farther in the story, so I'm just gonna leave this conversation. We'll see who's right soon enough. If either of us are, lol. From past experiences given Nomura's love of pulling plot points from thin air, there's a better than even chance it's actually something entirely unforeseen and nothing to do with anything already in the games.

I'm not cherry picking anything, saying "in a warped sort of way it does make sense" seems like like Cherry picking to me plus you are ignoring all the other facts I presented (or cherry picked apparently) 

Ansem hates his apprentices after the betrayal and couldn't care less if they suffered or not, he wanted to get rid of them because they pretty much destroyed his world and his name

The apprentices WERE. NOT. CHILDREN, if SoD would be reffering to the apprentices why would he speak of them in such an indirect maner HE WAS ONE OF THEM why didn't he say something like "all the suffering you caused us" "everything that happened to us was because of you"?

Ansem The Wise ended up doing a lot of bad things to people (let's exclude UX totally for now) He manipulated Riku, tried to brainwash Roxas, showed little care for Naminé (pretty much for all the nobodies, he considered them less than nothing) and wanted to use Sora to destroy the Organization, eventually he learned his ways and decided to not be consumed by hatred, BUT HE NEVER, EVEN AFTER THAT, FELT BAD FOR XEHANORT not when he was his star apprentice, certainly not now that he has probably been filled in into what he truly is

again KHUX Contains (a simulated) Chi inside it, Strelitzia died in KHUX (during the part of the simulation that was set before the keyblade war, as you said) , she NEVER appeared once during the gameplay of Kingdom Hearts Chi, both games (so far) have been confirmed to exist in the same universe you can't say that  KHUX is just Chi's sequel when it clearly shows diverging events and the lack of key characters in one game, not just Strelitzia is not important, THAT is the definition of cherry picking

I haven't ignored things that don't fit as I said multiple times, I know I'm leaving possible stuff behind, like the box, Luxu, the pods in the mansion mainly because they aren't as critical or we know close to nothing to make it matter and I know that by doing that it's pretty much impossible to be 100% but I'm not trying to, the box could be literally anything so taking it to account would be just adding a wild card, If I truly wanted to make everything fit I could throw that as a possible explanation, you can not proove that the box doesn't contain the heart of strelitzia, or the true X-Blade or pretty much anythig else, that's why it's futile

But that's also why I tried to look into all the places that we know of

Ansem The Wise's knowledge of encoding physical objects into data, and creating data worlds, his pride that made him disregard the well being of others (See: Riku, Roxas, Naminé), his status as a wise and good ruler that allowed radiant garden to flourish

The decorations all around twilight town's mansion alluding the the unicornis faction

All the dandelion leaders appearing and dissappearing at will 

THE APPRENTICES WERE NOT CHILDREN "but what about the possible children lost when the emblem heartless were created" that wasn't an accident, it was deliberately made by Xehanort, he created the whole heartless factory 

"But KH2 happened waaay before Chi/UX connecting the mansion and the research from to UX would be ridiculous foreshadowing and detail planning"

Yes, just like the brown robbed figure at the beginning of KH1 that Nomura decided, to reveal 10 years later, that it was a time traveling Xehanort's disembodied heart"

Or how the reason Kairi has a keyblade it's not because she is Sora's friend or a princess of heart or anything else, it was because she touched Aqua's keyblade once, by accident, during a 2 second scene, that no one ever references (in game) 

Or how you can see Braig pre and post getting norted in BBS during the battle with Aqua, before being norted was a thing no one addresses it, he is just back, and at the time no one went like, oh suddenly has a yellow eye wonder what that's about, those people probably also said he pulled the idea out of thin air when they played DDD

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Ok, you know what. Fine. I guess I'm a sucker for getting drawn into a debate, and a liar about not responding again. Putting aside what you've said. Lets simplify a little. After a quick aside on some -facts- of the situation in KHUX, as I have actually played the entirity of it and am familiar with the translations of the parts currently still in Japanese.

KHUX has no bell having been rung, because it has no Keyblade war during it. The bell cannot have been rung to start the Keyblade War in the simulation, because it just didn't happen during KHUX. Strelitzia dying before the bell, makes no sense without KHUX being a direct sequel to Chi in which certain events run again due to the dreamlike nature of the realm they are in. Furthermore, it shows further proof that Lauriam, as well as the other Dandelion leaders, have full knowledge of, and memory of the war having happened. Strelitzia, did not die in the KHUX timeline, she died in Chi in a flashback beforehand.

As a union leader, if it had been during KHUX, she would have had full knowledge of the fact that the player was already a Dandelion, and already saved, and the war was not about to happen therefore going after them would be foolish and silly. If Strelitzia died during KHUX, the entire motivation for her actions that get her assassinated, make no sense. Furthermore, Lauriam would have had no reason to assume that Strelitzia may have gone into the war after the player, and died there, if the war had already taken place before her disappearance by his own knowledge. Him asking the Chirithy before or after the bell, is very explicitly, before or after the Keyblade War that occured before the events of KHUX.

 

 

 

Putting aside the issues with your interpretation of what happened to Strelitzia as established by canon facts. I am going to present one fact. Not conjecture, not fan theory, fact. And I would like you to explain, if you can, how this fact fits in with your theory.

 

The Master of Masters vanished before Chi even began. Any cutscenes with him involved are flashbacks to before Chi and his disappearance. Specifically, the cutscene I am referencing is a continuation of the one in Back Cover in the time of Chi when he is meeting with Ava.

 

The Master of Masters, met with Ava, and told her to choose all five union leaders as Dandelions and make them the new leaders to carry on after the foretellers.

 

Again, this is not fantheory, this is not conjecture. This is fact. Ava had the Dandelion Leaders set up KHUX on the masters orders. And met with them all, in the time of Chi. This is also supported by several conversations between the Dandelion Leaders, and the Chirithy as well.

 

How does your theory, deal with that? Because unless you can disprove it. Which I do not believe you can. The entire theory regarding Ansem the Wise being the one running KHUX, completely falls apart.

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:21 PM, Aqua_Wren said:

Putting aside the issues with your interpretation of what happened to Strelitzia as established by canon facts. I am going to present one fact. Not conjecture, not fan theory, fact. And I would like you to explain, if you can, how this fact fits in with your theory.

 

The Master of Masters vanished before Chi even began. Any cutscenes with him involved are flashbacks to before Chi and his disappearance. Specifically, the cutscene I am referencing is a continuation of the one in Back Cover in the time of Chi when he is meeting with Ava.

 

The Master of Masters, met with Ava, and told her to choose all five union leaders as Dandelions and make them the new leaders to carry on after the foretellers.

 

Again, this is not fantheory, this is not conjecture. This is fact. Ava had the Dandelion Leaders set up KHUX on the masters orders. And met with them all, in the time of Chi. This is also supported by several conversations between the Dandelion Leaders, and the Chirithy as well.

 

How does your theory, deal with that? Because unless you can disprove it. Which I do not believe you can. The entire theory regarding Ansem the Wise being the one running KHUX, completely falls apart.

OKAY this finally gets interesting, that's a nice wrench you threw into the mix, and I'm as intrigued as you into discovering how I can work it in

Yes, the master of masters did vanish in Chi, but the cutscenes you refer to are only shown in KHUX not in Chi, where I'm going with this is you can not assume can't assume that anything that KHUX shows is 100% real, it being a simulation, as I said before UX contains its own Chi inside it, so just as the worlds themself were artificial, those flashbacks could be created, I'll explain what I mean, but I simply refused to accept that they are suddenly showing flashbacks to Chi in UX that were never shown in Chi proper, it's not like they couldn't show them during the real chi they weren't made so far apart that Nomura hadn't thought of those plot points for Chi on time

What I mean by the flashbacks being created, as I stated before the only people I believe to truly be real during KHUX are Ventus, Lauriam Elrena and Strelitzia (Ephemer, Skuld & Brian could go either way but as it is know, it doesn't matter if they are real or not) that means that neither the foretellers nor the Master of Masters that appear in KHUX are real, howver the MoM is a special case, there is no denial that he is a special individual whether its Chi or KHUX wer are talking about, knowing pretty much everything there is to know and having all the answers (almost like entities like presence in dc or the one above all in marvel) he stated multiple times I'm going to vanish and the worlds gonna end, and in Chi that's exactly what happened

so if KHUX is a simulation after the fact, which character would be the perfect avatar for some sort of GM or administrator to use in case he would want to interact with the simulation directly, let's say, give a forteller a list of names that would suddenly appear into the world in order to recruit? ideally it would be someone who fits the world, its regarded as all knowing, and could suddenly appear and disappear, and again wouldn't be a stretch since we've already seen Ansem the Wise use fake names & wear the black coat

So no, I won't disprove your statements you clearly know much more about Chi/UX than I do, I can assure you you've forced me to rewatch scenes, articles and character bios, so it would be pretty lazy to try and say nah you wrong lol, cause yea, facts are facts, nothing you said was a lie, but maybe those facts didn't happen in the context they seemed

And hey, it was pretty fun trying to find a satisfactory solution, you just increased my hype for the game even more 

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2 minutes ago, corpiman said:

OKAY this finally gets interesting, that's a nice wrench you threw into the mix, and I'm as intrigued as you into discovering how I can work it in

Yes, the master of masters did vanish in Chi, but the cutscenes you refer to are only shown in KHUX not in Chi, where I'm going with this is you can not assume can't assume that anything that KHUX shows is 100% real, it being a simulation, as I said before UX contains its own Chi inside it, so just as the worlds themself were artificial, those flashbacks could be created, I'll explain what I mean, but I simply refused to accept that they are suddenly showing flashbacks to Chi in UX that were never shown in Chi proper, it's not like they couldn't show them during the real chi they weren't made so far apart that Nomura hadn't thought of those plot points for Chi on time

What I mean by the flashbacks being created, as I stated before the only people I believe to truly be real during KHUX are Ventus, Lauriam Elrena and Strelitzia (Ephemer, Skuld & Brian could go either way but as it is know, it doesn't matter if they are real or not) that means that neither the foretellers nor the Master of Masters that appear in KHUX are real, howver the MoM is a special case, there is no denial that he is a special individual whether its Chi or KHUX wer are talking about, knowing pretty much everything there is to know and having all the answers (almost like entities like presence in dc or the one above all in marvel) he stated multiple times I'm going to vanish and the worlds gonna end, and in Chi that's exactly what happened

so if KHUX is a simulation after the fact, which character would be the perfect avatar for some sort of GM or administrator to use in case he would want to interact with the simulation directly, let's say, give a forteller a list of names that would suddenly appear into the world in order to recruit? ideally it would be someone who fits the world, its regarded as all knowing, and could suddenly appear and disappear, and again wouldn't be a stretch since we've already seen Ansem the Wise use fake names & wear the black coat

So no, I won't disprove your statements you clearly know much more about Chi/UX than I do, I can assure you you've forced me to rewatch scenes, articles and character bios, so it would be pretty lazy to try and say nah you wrong lol, cause yea, facts are facts, nothing you said was a lie, but maybe those facts didn't happen in the context they seemed

And hey, it was pretty fun trying to find a satisfactory solution, you just increased my hype for the game even more 

Fair fair. I think we're probably going to disagree on the details forever, for one, KHUX itself has the new dandelion leaders -acknowledge- that it contains chi in it. They aren't locked into the simulation like the other dandelions, they are aware it is a simulation, and that the Keyblade War has already happened. They aren't some... clueless, test subjects and when they are alone, it would make more sense to me if they were to talk about the war having happened a very long time ago, as opposed to very recently since... there's nothing to suggest that they have any sort of overwrite of their own memories going on.

And it... doesn't... contain the entirety of Chi, it only contains certain events leading up to it, while completely skipping and overwriting, the stuff that actually led to a war. Exactly like the plan that the Master tells Ava to have the dandelion leaders implement.  The context all works without needing it to be a modern simulation of something that happened in the past.

 

Actually, come to think it. I also question how Ansem the Wise would have even managed to get the data to even run the simulation, he has never before been shown creating a simulation without an original of some sort.

Data twilight town was created from the town he himself was in, he converted Roxas into data I think, when he put him inside.

he tried to convert the fake KH2 Kingdom Hearts into data... Tron was also stolen from another persons database (the tron we see in 3D...) and was just a copy...

Where on earth would he have gotten the required data to recreate all this? I just don't think him capable of recreating something that happened so long ago in such ridiculous detail. He can make small alterations sure, tweak things, but this is multiple, full scale worlds, one of which (Daybreak Town) Is massive and populated and he wouldn't really have a way to get copies of people that no longer exist and aren't around anymore.

 

 

But it is fun to have discussions like this. Looking forward to 3 as well, hopefully it will actually answer some things, even if it's almost definitely going to leave some questions for the next saga, even if just in the epilogue and secret movie.

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OK SO LETS RECAP

KH3 SPOILERS, SECRET MOVIES, REPORTS AND PRETTY MUCH ALL THE SECRET STUFF

Spoiler

 

OK?

OK

Soo.. it all seems to point to Ansem having 2 researches, instead of a big one

the one that concerns Sora he did it while he was asleep and that's when he found out about the other hearts inside him

the other, more sinister one was done way before Involved experimenting on people(this research was then forbidden and eventually lead into the apprentices' betrayal and a third research lead by Xehanort), let's talk about this

So it seem's the jury is still out about how exactly people from the past (ven, lauriam, elrena etc.) came into the present (other than Malificent "might" be a clue) 

The fact that apprentice Xehanort himself writes about a girl suddenly appearing in the square (with out favourite cliché, amnesia) who OF COURSE NEVER GETS NAMED, this girl seems to be the catalyst that motivated Xehanort into continuing the forbidden research since she was the perfect test subject to study the past, quite an unpleasant experience according to the reports

This girl is trapped in the castle, with the only respite being the somewhat frequent visits by Isa and Lea who would sneak into the castle to talk to her (and again she is the reason they become apprentices, to rescue her...even tho it happens literally 1 day before they become nobodies)

So, the new debate is, who is this girl? from what I've scoured, there are 3 possible candidates: Ava the missing foreteller, Skuld and yes, Strelitzia. I think we can discard Ava right off the bat because of the reports which say the girl is around 15 years old, and even if she looks young she looks older than 15 (I would say she is around the same age as Aqua, who should be around 18, without considering her time in the realm of darkness)

On Skuld we don't have enough information to go on as to why she would disappear 

and on Strelitzia it would be hard for her to appear in the future (with a body) if she is just a heart, mainly because there is a STRONG possiblity that we talk with her heart, in the missable cutscene in the final world we speak to a heart who (AGAIN) doesn't remember it's name, but it remembers:

A)having everything be stolen from it (everything as in her spot as a dandelion leader?)

B)waiting for someone (a he) to get her back, he even tells the name to Sora (not the audience) and his lack of reaction when hearing it suggests it is a new name for him so if he had heard "Lauriam" would've made sense

 

So, recap of the recap

Ventus and the other guys from the past somehow made it to the future, with their bodies (so pretty much breaking both the rules of time travel in KH) with maleficent help, but some at different times, seeing as Skuld maybe arrived first and everyone lost their memories (UUUUGGGHHHHH....) Strelitzia's heart went on to wait on the final world for pretty much hundreds of years guarded by a Chirithy, who goes on to reunite with Ventus at the end (firetruck)

But hey, at least I was right, the "darkness" that trapped Maleficent and the Master of Masters are NOT Xehanort and others in the organization know about the past in addition to Marluxia/Lauriam and Larxene/Elrena, it seems Luxord and Demyx know something...

Oh, and Brain is most likely the traitor, and the "virus" going against the future that the MoM saw

 

But I think it's to early to start predicting again, considering DLC's is still on the table and who knows if we will get a Final Mix version that will expand upon things

And I think the next game won't be as big in scope focusing on bringing Sora back after he abused the power of waking and only after that could the return of the master of masters begin, like Xehanort's return was treated in DDD

 

 

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9 hours ago, corpiman said:

OK SO LETS RECAP

KH3 SPOILERS, SECRET MOVIES, REPORTS AND PRETTY MUCH ALL THE SECRET STUFF

  KH3 Spoilers (Hide contents)

 

OK?

OK

Soo.. it all seems to point to Ansem having 2 researches, instead of a big one

the one that concerns Sora he did it while he was asleep and that's when he found out about the other hearts inside him

the other, more sinister one was done way before Involved experimenting on people(this research was then forbidden and eventually lead into the apprentices' betrayal and a third research lead by Xehanort), let's talk about this

So it seem's the jury is still out about how exactly people from the past (ven, lauriam, elrena etc.) came into the present (other than Malificent "might" be a clue) 

The fact that apprentice Xehanort himself writes about a girl suddenly appearing in the square (with out favourite cliché, amnesia) who OF COURSE NEVER GETS NAMED, this girl seems to be the catalyst that motivated Xehanort into continuing the forbidden research since she was the perfect test subject to study the past, quite an unpleasant experience according to the reports

This girl is trapped in the castle, with the only respite being the somewhat frequent visits by Isa and Lea who would sneak into the castle to talk to her (and again she is the reason they become apprentices, to rescue her...even tho it happens literally 1 day before they become nobodies)

So, the new debate is, who is this girl? from what I've scoured, there are 3 possible candidates: Ava the missing foreteller, Skuld and yes, Strelitzia. I think we can discard Ava right off the bat because of the reports which say the girl is around 15 years old, and even if she looks young she looks older than 15 (I would say she is around the same age as Aqua, who should be around 18, without considering her time in the realm of darkness)

On Skuld we don't have enough information to go on as to why she would disappear 

and on Strelitzia it would be hard for her to appear in the future (with a body) if she is just a heart, mainly because there is a STRONG possiblity that we talk with her heart, in the missable cutscene in the final world we speak to a heart who (AGAIN) doesn't remember it's name, but it remembers:

A)having everything be stolen from it (everything as in her spot as a dandelion leader?)

B)waiting for someone (a he) to get her back, he even tells the name to Sora (not the audience) and his lack of reaction when hearing it suggests it is a new name for him so if he had heard "Lauriam" would've made sense

 

So, recap of the recap

Ventus and the other guys from the past somehow made it to the future, with their bodies (so pretty much breaking both the rules of time travel in KH) with maleficent help, but some at different times, seeing as Skuld maybe arrived first and everyone lost their memories (UUUUGGGHHHHH....) Strelitzia's heart went on to wait on the final world for pretty much hundreds of years guarded by a Chirithy, who goes on to reunite with Ventus at the end (firetruck)

But hey, at least I was right, the "darkness" that trapped Maleficent and the Master of Masters are NOT Xehanort and others in the organization know about the past in addition to Marluxia/Lauriam and Larxene/Elrena, it seems Luxord and Demyx know something...

Oh, and Brain is most likely the traitor, and the "virus" going against the future that the MoM saw

 

But I think it's to early to start predicting again, considering DLC's is still on the table and who knows if we will get a Final Mix version that will expand upon things

And I think the next game won't be as big in scope focusing on bringing Sora back after he abused the power of waking and only after that could the return of the master of masters begin, like Xehanort's return was treated in DDD

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

The biggest issue I would have with "discarding Ava right off the bat" is just basing it solely on how she "doesn't look 15". She is not only smaller than the other Foretellers, Invi is the one I would say is closer to Aqua's age than Ava based on build, we also never see her face fully, or her body fully in general to make a good assumption, and even then it's not entirely possible to say.

I would also like to post this excerpt that was included with the KHUx: Back Cover movie:

Quote

One of the Master's disciples who receives a copy of the Book of Prophecies. Despite being a Keyblade Master, she is often treated as a friend by other wielders due to her age.

This puts her in a younger age bracket than the other Foretellers. Likely her MID teens, rather than late teens-early adulthood like the others. We also see her talking to Ephemer and he tends to be around the same size as her, which means that she's around the size of a mid-teens boy as well. When standing with the other Foretellers we can see that she is JUST shorter than GULA, who is also a younger member.

3fa8bad291ca6847f46aaf4638bbe09e7e7d4c68_hq.thumb.jpg.d46a0c61cbead52117c380aae9bc0a01.jpg

Yes, I said shorter. Gula is standing further back than her and they're about equal height which would make him taller on the same plane.

One of the other clues is her face. In the KH style we see faces gain sharpness with older characters, Aqua being key as you have mentioned her as an example. Compared to her, Ava's face is more in line with the shape of Namine's and Xions rather than Aqua's and we can see that from what is visible under her mask.

While I am not saying it is Ava, we don't have nearly enough information for that to be something I can slam down and say is accurate, judging age as more than 15 with her is actually quite difficult, especially with how she is compared to the other Foretellers and is specifically mentioned to be YOUNGER than the others.

 

 

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Spoiler

The biggest issue I would have with "discarding Ava right off the bat" is just basing it solely on how she "doesn't look 15". She is not only smaller than the other Foretellers, Invi is the one I would say is closer to Aqua's age than Ava based on build, we also never see her face fully, or her body fully in general to make a good assumption, and even then it's not entirely possible to say.

I would also like to post this excerpt that was included with the KHUx: Back Cover movie:

Quote

One of the Master's disciples who receives a copy of the Book of Prophecies. Despite being a Keyblade Master, she is often treated as a friend by other wielders due to her age.

This puts her in a younger age bracket than the other Foretellers. Likely her MID teens, rather than late teens-early adulthood like the others. We also see her talking to Ephemer and he tends to be around the same size as her, which means that she's around the size of a mid-teens boy as well. When standing with the other Foretellers we can see that she is JUST shorter than GULA, who is also a younger member.

3fa8bad291ca6847f46aaf4638bbe09e7e7d4c68_hq.thumb.jpg.d46a0c61cbead52117c380aae9bc0a01.jpg

Yes, I said shorter. Gula is standing further back than her and they're about equal height which would make him taller on the same plane.

One of the other clues is her face. In the KH style we see faces gain sharpness with older characters, Aqua being key as you have mentioned her as an example. Compared to her, Ava's face is more in line with the shape of Namine's and Xions rather than Aqua's and we can see that from what is visible under her mask.

While I am not saying it is Ava, we don't have nearly enough information for that to be something I can slam down and say is accurate, judging age as more than 15 with her is actually quite difficult, especially with how she is compared to the other Foretellers and is specifically mentioned to be YOUNGER than the others.

Spoiler

Yup you are right, it is too soon to declare anything as conclusive It wouldn't be a stretch for her to be the girl I still, however there is another thing that I think makes Skuld (or even Strelitzia, somehow but not likely at this point) a better candidate (for me) the fact that the girl says that in her fragmented memory she remembers her 4 friends, this would make sense for her to be one of the 5 new union leaders remembering her past friends, yes Ava could also fit this but there are two things that go against it, technically she would be remembering 5 friends if you include Luxu as he was part of the original apprentices, and second, as time goes on the foretellers' relationships begin to fracture so it wouldn't be suprising if they don't consider each other friends anymore while the dandelions seem to have quite a good relationship (so far)

 

Edited by corpiman

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4 hours ago, corpiman said:
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Yup you are right, it is too soon to declare anything as conclusive It wouldn't be a stretch for her to be the girl I still, however there is another thing that I think makes Skuld (or even Strelitzia, somehow but not likely at this point) a better candidate (for me) the fact that the girl says that in her fragmented memory she remembers her 4 friends, this would make sense for her to be one of the 5 new union leaders remembering her past friends, yes Ava could also fit this but there are two things that go against it, technically she would be remembering 5 friends if you include Luxu as he was part of the original apprentices, and second, as time goes on the foretellers' relationships begin to fracture so it wouldn't be suprising if they don't consider each other friends anymore while the dandelions seem to have quite a good relationship (so far)

 

 

Spoiler

 

Oh, for sure. My two guesses are primarily Ava and Skuld. I tend to lean more towards Ava than Skuld based on the fact that she was the only Foreteller not to be summoned with the others and we don't have a lot to go on with the new Union Leaders to say that any of them would have just appeared in Radiant Garden other than their Worldlining. Ephemera for example didn't really appear, it was more his heart that helps Sora at the end instead of him being physically around. Ventus appeared wherever he did LONG before Xehanort began studying with Ansem, which would mean either they were scattered not only across the worlds, but also TIME. Which is still possible.

Ava would also only consider 4 of the Foretellers as her friends. She never really considered any of them as enemies and actively spoke of how she did not want the Keyblade War to happen, and so fulfilled the role she was given by the Master of Masters and raised the Dandelions to be free of the union fighting to save them as she knew she would not be able to stop it. The only Foreteller she is shown actively despising is Luxu due to his role and secretive nature. She lashed out at him and that sparked the Keyblade War, but he was the only one she actually wanted to fight against, so it would make sense for her to not count him among her friends and not remember him.

I see Skuld being possible due to her connection with the new Union Leaders as well, my only drawbacks on saying she would be it for the time being is that they didn't really know each other very long. The only person she made a connection with so far is the Player and Ephemera. They just met the other Union Leaders prior to the current story and she's someone that feels like she wouldn't immediately just call them friends. But there is the case that she might due to them all being Union leaders and we don't have an exact count for time passage in the Ux universe.

I'm still kinda doubtful on Strelitzia though. While I would personally love to see her more, she didn't really have many friends that we know of and the only person she mentioned really  wanting to connect with was the Player. She never met the other Union leaders, and she was killed before the Keyblade War by someone. I hope we do wind up seeing her at some point in the story, but... for the time being, I do not think that she would be anyone outside of the "Nameless Star" and even then it's a stretch. Those are just my thoughts of course, as we still have much to learn on both X and the Nameless Star. I would love for any of those three to be either of those and if it winds up being someone else entirely I'd love to dig in and see if I can't find any clues as to why it's that person in KH3 and other games :3 

 

 

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