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8 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

It's possible.  I also heard that Kairi was close to Lea.

They've been hinting that the two have become close during their time training with Merlin. Of course, this means  that people are already saying that they're going to become a couple, which I think might be jumping the gun a little.

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8 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

They've been hinting that the two have become close during their time training with Merlin. Of course, this means  that people are already saying that they're going to become a couple, which I think might be jumping the gun a little.

I doubt they'll become a couple since Kairi is like seventeen and Axel is what like 25 or 26.

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1 minute ago, ienzo628 said:

I doubt they'll become a couple since Kairi is like seventeen and Axel is what like 25 or 26.

Yeeeeahh, that's kind of my thought process. I do think there is aome romantic chemistry there but unless we get some clarification on Lea's age and he turnes out to be only like 18 or 19 then I would rather they just be friends.

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3 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Yeeeeahh, that's kind of my thought process. I do think there is some romantic chemistry there but unless we get some clarification on Lea's age and he turns out to be only like 18 or 19 then I would rather they just be friends.

I rather have Sora and Kairi together than Kairi to get with Lea.  Lea also has some connection to Kairi through being friends with Xion and holding Namine captive.  Didn't Axel lie to Saix about Namine's whereabouts in Days after he mentioned killing off Zexion to help Saix get to the top?

Plus, in the cutscene from Sunset Hill, we see Namine, Axel and possibly Riku talking together.  Did the three of them form some sort of plan during the events of Com behind Saix's back?  I don't remember seeing the three of them interacting in Com, just Axel with Namine and Axel with Repliku.

Edited by ienzo628

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:54 PM, ienzo628 said:

I doubt they'll become a couple since Kairi is like seventeen and Axel is what like 25 or 26.

On 1/11/2019 at 12:57 PM, Allwil13 said:

Yeeeeahh, that's kind of my thought process. I do think there is aome romantic chemistry there but unless we get some clarification on Lea's age and he turnes out to be only like 18 or 19 then I would rather they just be friends.

I agree, I think people are jumping the gun a bit. Lea is like the older brother/college friend in the group. It's not that uncommon in real life for teens to have people in their early twenties in their friendship groups imo. From personal experience, I've seen/have had groups of friends with people ranging between 15 and 25 included.

I don't think Kairi likes Lea in that way, there's actually a lot of hints she likes Sora back. And for Lea's side, I'm pretty sure it's just platonic/Reminds him of Xion.

About the ages, Sora, Riku and Kairi are actually characters that we know for sure what their ages are. The ultimanias and PS2 game booklets state it outright that:

Riku is 15 in KH1 and 16 in KH2. He will be 17 in KH3. He's one year older than Sora and Kairi.

Sora and Kairi are both 14 in KH1 and 15 in KH2. So, they will be 16, not 17. This means that Namine, Xion, and Roxas are also (Mentally/Physically)14/15 in between the events of KH1/CoM/KH2. They are always the same age as Sora and Kairi. Even though the only one who has a model that reflects this is Namine. Then again, maybe Xion being a replica means she doesn't age. Roxas has no excuse though, lol. 

So, we know that Roxas has to be 15 by the end of Days. It's likely that Ventus is around the same age. I think he was 14 in BBS, however, since apparently him meeting Aqua and Terra happened four years after Xehanort found him(Again, they didn't make different models for that but it's understandable since it's only one scene). Since lea and Isa look around the same age as Ventus in BBS, and it's been ten years since, Lea and Isa pretty much have to be at least 24. For lea to be 18 or 19, would mean he only aged four or five years in that ten year span. Which is still possible, but I feel like it's less likely. If nobodies age slowly, then how come Namine aged normally? 🤔  

Then again, we all assumed Aqua was in her early twenties, and then Nomura said "she's around 18/19". lol

 

On 1/11/2019 at 1:00 PM, ienzo628 said:

I rather have Sora and Kairi together than Kairi to get with Lea.  Lea also has some connection to Kairi through being friends with Xion and holding Namine captive.  Didn't Axel lie to Saix about Namine's whereabouts in Days after he mentioned killing off Zexion to help Saix get to the top?

Plus, in the cutscene from Sunset Hill, we see Namine, Axel and possibly Riku talking together.  Did the three of them form some sort of plan during the events of Com behind Saix's back?  I don't remember seeing the three of them interacting in Com, just Axel with Namine and Axel with Repliku.

Actually, in that scene, Riku was sent by DiZ to kill Namine and Axel. He allowed them to escape.

Here's the dubbed version:

Riku actually seemed to be contemplating his choice after they left. Damn

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32 minutes ago, Kittenz said:

Actually, in that scene, Riku was sent by DiZ to kill Namine and Axel. He allowed them to escape.

Here's the dubbed version:

Riku actually seemed to be contemplating his choice after they left. Damn

Was he? Wow. they didn't make that very clear, in my opinion. I thought they were all formulating a plan of action.

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9 hours ago, Allwil13 said:

Was he? Wow. they didn't make that very clear, in my opinion. I thought they were all formulating a plan of action.

I had no idea that was what the scene was about.  How did Axel help Riku during CO though?  The guy got Repliku to kill Zexion because he was in the way of Saix's position.  He did let Namine go and lie to Saix about what happened to Namine sort of.  Axel did let Namine go which got in the way of Larxene and Marluxia's plan of controlling the keyblade wielder.

I don't know if Axel letting Namine escape was part of his and Saix's plan to overthrow Xemnas or his way of helping Riku.  What were Saix and Axel planning on doing with Roxas?  Axel I know wanted to keep Sora intact because if he got defeated or learned about Roxas's existence than it would cause some problems for Roxas.   Roxas was also the only legitimate keyblade wielder in the Organization (Xion doesn't count in part that she gained her ability to wield the keyblade from Roxas) so I'd imagine that he played some role in Saix's and Axel's scheme.

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15 hours ago, ienzo628 said:

I had no idea that was what the scene was about.  How did Axel help Riku during CO though?  The guy got Repliku to kill Zexion because he was in the way of Saix's position.  He did let Namine go and lie to Saix about what happened to Namine sort of.  Axel did let Namine go which got in the way of Larxene and Marluxia's plan of controlling the keyblade wielder.

I don't know if Axel letting Namine escape was part of his and Saix's plan to overthrow Xemnas or his way of helping Riku.  What were Saix and Axel planning on doing with Roxas?  Axel I know wanted to keep Sora intact because if he got defeated or learned about Roxas's existence than it would cause some problems for Roxas.   Roxas was also the only legitimate keyblade wielder in the Organization (Xion doesn't count in part that she gained her ability to wield the keyblade from Roxas) so I'd imagine that he played some role in Saix's and Axel's scheme.

I suspect that Riku wanted to make sure that Namine would be safe, and he knew that Axel wasn't entirely loyal to the Organization so he trusted him to protect her. But that whole scene was really weird. Apart from the whole "I know you're here to get rid of us" thing, they didn't do much to explain Riku's motivations there.

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4 hours ago, Allwil13 said:

I suspect that Riku wanted to make sure that Namine would be safe, and he knew that Axel wasn't entirely loyal to the Organization so he trusted him to protect her. But that whole scene was really weird. Apart from the whole "I know you're here to get rid of us" thing, they didn't do much to explain Riku's motivations there.

This is why I really wanna read the KH2 novel. I just finised Days, fully anticipating it to just be a play by play if the game, but instead it dug into a lot of the points of view you dont get in the games. You learn about stuff that was happening off screen or dives deeper into character motivations or relationships. Ive only read some of the KH2 novel from a sample chapter, but it seems like they are doing the same thing! I need to get me that book!

For example, in the Days novel you spend more time in other peoples POV than in Roxas'! You get to see in roxas head, but when you are, you learn about things he was thinking about that you didnt before. It made me want individual books of the story from all the main players points of view. Especially Saixs'! 

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1 minute ago, Fates Chance XIII said:

This is why I really wanna read the KH2 novel. I just finised Days, fully anticipating it to just be a play by play if the game, but instead it dug into a lot of the points of view you dont get in the games. You learn about stuff that was happening off screen or dives deeper into character motivations or relationships. Ive only read some of the KH2 novel from a sample chapter, but it seems like they are doing the same thing! I need to get me that book!

For example, in the Days novel you spend more time in other peoples POV than in Roxas'! You get to see in roxas head, but when you are, you learn about things he was thinking about that you didnt before. It made me want individual books of the story from all the main players points of view. Especially Saixs'! 

Even the manga went more in depth with the characters than the games did. I remember in the Chain of Memories mange Larxene was always reading, and I loved that little inclusion. I think in the KH2 novel you got to see what the organization did in their down time too. I read somewhere that Luxord beat Axel in a card game and Axel was a sore loser, lol. 

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4 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

What were Axel and Saix planning on doing with Xion and Roxas?  Is their plan still in effect, whatever it was/is?

They never really gave a decent explanation as to what their plan was. I don't think it really involved Xion or Roxas, especially since Axel didn't know Xion's purpose or origins till later on in the game. I think Axel and Saix's plan was to boost Saix up through the ranks of the Organization so they could eventually take over. That's why Axel killed Zexion (I think).

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4 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

They never really gave a decent explanation as to what their plan was. I don't think it really involved Xion or Roxas, especially since Axel didn't know Xion's purpose or origins till later on in the game. I think Axel and Saix's plan was to boost Saix up through the ranks of the Organization so they could eventually take over. That's why Axel killed Zexion (I think).

But, they knew of Roxas; well Saix did anyways.  He was the keybearer's nobody.  I would think they would have had some strategy that involved Roxas helping them take over the Organization, especially with how significant he was to heart collection.  I wish there was more elaboration of their plan and how they planned to take over the Organization.

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Just now, ienzo628 said:

But, they knew of Roxas; well Saix did anyways.  He was the keybearer's nobody.  I would think they would have had some strategy that involved Roxas helping them take over the Organization, especially with how significant he was to heart collection.  I wish there was more elaboration of their plan and how they planned to take over the Organization.

Yeah, I agree that it was suuuuuper vague. I guess it would make sense if Axel knew Roxas was supposed to be part of their plan since he was paired with him right from the beginning. And he knew Roxas was Sora's nobody because he mentions it in one of the secret reports. I imagine we'll get some reference to it in KH3.

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10 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Yeah, I agree that it was suuuuuper vague. I guess it would make sense if Axel knew Roxas was supposed to be part of their plan since he was paired with him right from the beginning. And he knew Roxas was Sora's nobody because he mentions it in one of the secret reports. I imagine we'll get some reference to it in KH3.

Back in the Days game it was kinda talked about how Xion and Roxas were the only ones keeping Sora from coming back, essentially giving them two Keyblade wielders that were fully under their control. It wasn't until Xion started to "come out of her shell" really that started to cause the issues cus her heart was collecting memories and that interfered with Roxas and vice versa. Essentially the two together, while great in theory, wound up causing them both to fall into week long comas at different points in the story.

Axel knew about that plan, especially as Saix had mentioned it at a couple points and he was aware of the reason for Xion's creation in Castle Oblivion, but not the full reason and even so much as commented on the falsity of the friendship between him and Roxas/Xion. They might elaborate on it more for sure, but I think there is definitely room for more elaboration, especially since we know that Xion will at least make some appearance in KH3.

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23 minutes ago, LunaCatte said:

Back in the Days game it was kinda talked about how Xion and Roxas were the only ones keeping Sora from coming back, essentially giving them two Keyblade wielders that were fully under their control. It wasn't until Xion started to "come out of her shell" really that started to cause the issues cus her heart was collecting memories and that interfered with Roxas and vice versa. Essentially the two together, while great in theory, wound up causing them both to fall into week long comas at different points in the story.

Axel knew about that plan, especially as Saix had mentioned it at a couple points and he was aware of the reason for Xion's creation in Castle Oblivion, but not the full reason and even so much as commented on the falsity of the friendship between him and Roxas/Xion. They might elaborate on it more for sure, but I think there is definitely room for more elaboration, especially since we know that Xion will at least make some appearance in KH3.

I didn't think Axel knew much about Xion coming from CO at first until Saix mentioned to him about her coming from the same place as Namine.  Axel seemed to be pretty ignorant about Xion until he came back from his mission and rescued her with Roxas's help in Twilight Town.  Axel agreed to be Xion's friend and that was when he noted the similarities between Xion and Namine.  I apologize for sounding incoherent.  I do think Saix was keeping some things from Axel just like Axel was called out by Saix for keeping secrets from him.

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32 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Yeah, I agree that it was suuuuuper vague. I guess it would make sense if Axel knew Roxas was supposed to be part of their plan since he was paired with him right from the beginning. And he knew Roxas was Sora's nobody because he mentions it in one of the secret reports. I imagine we'll get some reference to it in KH3.

At least in the Days light novel it does out right say their plan was to take over the Org or more specifically over throw Xemnas. It's not said much but they knew he had ulterior motives than getting their hearts back which is what Saix and Axel wanted. 

They wanted to find out what Xemnas was planning and to do that they needed Saix to climb the ladder. Have him get closer to the upper command. I think the reason they (A&S) decided to have Saix play this part was 1: Saix tells Axel hes not good at hiding his intentions, and 2: they both acknowledge that Saix is more powerful of the two of them.

Which maked it sound like perhaps the rest of the plan was to have Saix get close, find out what was up, and if it was not conducive to them getting their hearts to have Saix take Xemnas out. Or maybe have both of them do it? Or maybe they thought Saix would stand a better chance if he got found out that close to Xemnas? 

This however i think was ultimately doomed to fail because Xemnas and Xigbar did not trust either of them very far and I'm not convinced they could have defeated Xemnas in a fight. Let alone both Xemnas and xigbar.

But whats more, Saix ultimately saw all ills they did as a means to an end and everything other than both of them as tools to get there. He didnt care who or what needed to be sacrificed. And it seemed Axel concurred until that end required him to give up and betray someone he cared about. And as Saix began to also treat Axel as a tool to the end plan rather than a partner, you can see where everything completely unraveled.

And Saix meanwhile seems to be feeling like he is the one who was betrayed by Axel. Since he no longer was willing to do what ever it took to get their hearts back.

I freaking love their dynamic in the books man! Everytime they are together in the books i just never want it to end. I just want to see more. I never really thought much of Saix or his character until i read the novel and got glimpses into his point of view and their relationship.

I really hope we get more of his point of view.

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Just now, Fates Chance XIII said:

At least in the Days light novel it does out right say their plan was to take over the Org or more specifically over throw Xemnas. It's not said much but they knew he had ulterior motives than getting their hearts back which is what Saix and Axel wanted. 

They wanted to find out what Xemnas was planning and to do that they needed Saix to climb the ladder. Have him get closer to the upper command. I think the reason they (A&S) decided to have Saix play this part was 1: Saix tells Axel hes not good at hiding his intentions, and 2: they both acknowledge that Saix is more powerful of the two of them.

Which maked it sound like perhaps the rest of the plan was to have Saix get close, find out what was up, and if it was not conducive to them getting their hearts to have Saix take Xemnas out. Or maybe have both of them do it? Or maybe they thought Saix would stand a better chance if he got found out that close to Xemnas? 

This however i think was ultimately doomed to fail because Xemnas and Xigbar did not trust either of them very far and I'm not convinced they could have defeated Xemnas in a fight. Let alone both Xemnas and xigbar.

But whats more, Saix ultimately saw all ills they did as a means to an end and everything other than both of them as tools to get there. He didnt care who or what needed to be sacrificed. And it seemed Axel concurred until that end required him to give up and betray someone he cared about. And as Saix began to also treat Axel as a tool to the end plan rather than a partner, you can see where everything completely unraveled.

And Saix meanwhile seems to be feeling like he is the one who was betrayed by Axel. Since he no longer was willing to do what ever it took to get their hearts back.

I freaking love their dynamic in the books man! Everytime they are together in the books i just never want it to end. I just want to see more. I never really thought much of Saix or his character until i read the novel and got glimpses into his point of view and their relationship.

I really hope we get more of his point of view.

I'm really hoping that some of the elements from the books are somehow incorporated into the games. I've never read the books personally, but I know about a bunch of the extra development that they provided for certain characters. It would be great to see some of those elements brought into the games themselves. Because yeah, there was clearly some stuff that went down between Axel and Saix in the past, heavily implied through their interactions in Days, but they never really went into detail on that. But again, I imagine they'll expand on that in KH3. At least, they'd better.

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9 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

I didn't think Axel knew much about Xion coming from CO at first until Saix mentioned to him about her coming from the same place as Namine.  Axel seemed to be pretty ignorant about Xion until he came back from his mission and rescued her with Roxas's help in Twilight Town.  Axel agreed to be Xion's friend and that was when he noted the similarities between Xion and Namine.  I apologize for sounding incoherent.  I do think Saix was keeping some things from Axel just like Axel was called out by Saix for keeping secrets from him.

I do wonder what happened between those two to make them so distrustful of each other. Why did Saix start keeping secretes? Why did he start treating Axel like someone to just be ordered arround? 

I sometimes wonder if Saix literally couldnt tell Axel more or if it was a choice. 

Like did being Norted make him not fully in control of himself and his mind? If he revealed things to Axel, would Xemnas know somehow since Saix was Norted? 

Did being Norted chabge his personality?

Did Saix think he was being watched? I wouldnt put it past them considering how they really did not trust Saix much and Axel even less.

 

 

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Their dynamic is amazing and I'm really kinda upset that they don't go into is as much in the games, but at the same time writing/manga they are able to go in a bit more in-depth than the games just due to having a little bit more freedoms in a way.

From what we've really been able to see so far it doesn't really seem to alter their personalities from when they're a Nobody, since the Nobodies that we have seen before and afters of really seem to act the same, so it's hard to say!

10 minutes ago, Fates Chance XIII said:

Like did being Norted make him not fully in control of himself and his mind? If he revealed things to Axel, would Xemnas know somehow since Saix was Norted? 

For them I think it was Isa had a little bit more of a different ideal in the end and that's why they kinda drifted apart. Isa seemed to devote himself FULLY to things from the get go and was at times critical of Lea with how he was, in ways, less serious about it all. What I think is, if anything, it might enhance parts of their base personality. Isa was more of the "adult" than Lea was from the get go and that still kinda shows! I really think things did get kinda derailed from their original plans though from it.

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8 minutes ago, Fates Chance XIII said:

I do wonder what happened between those two to make them so distrustful of each other. Why did Saix start keeping secretes? Why did he start treating Axel like someone to just be ordered arround? 

I sometimes wonder if Saix literally couldnt tell Axel more or if it was a choice. 

Like did being Norted make him not fully in control of himself and his mind? If he revealed things to Axel, would Xemnas know somehow since Saix was Norted? 

Did being Norted chabge his personality?

Did Saix think he was being watched? I wouldnt put it past them considering how they really did not trust Saix much and Axel even less.

I always got the impression that Xemnas took Saix under his wing and Saix just put all his faith in him. Saix was apparently second-in-command of the organization despite his rank of 7. The fact that Saix always refers to Xemnas as "Lord Xemnas" always gave me the impression that Saix saw him as almost a savior of sorts. And Axel seemed to view that with a certain level of contempt, which always made me think that he didn't trust Xemnas the way Saix did. If you watch the cutscene movie packaged with the HD collection you'll notice Axel always has this sarcastic tone when Saix talks about Xemnas to him.

So maybe Axel eventually confronted Saix about the whole thing and Saix disagreed, and maybe it escalated? And as a result this caused a rift between them. But that's just my theory.

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Do the Novels actually give any insight as to what Axel and Saix's motives were towards Roxas?  He had to play a part.  It's kind of funny that Roxas was the one that pretty much unraveled their plans in a manner of speaking.  I remember Saix saying to Axel, "Which would you prefer the loss of; some make-believe friendship or a real one?"

I do think they planned on using Roxas to help them take over the Organization.  I skimmed through the Novel and Axel seemed to be made aware of Roxas's connection to Sora through Marluxia and this was either after Roxas's mission with Axel to find the chest in Twilight Town or when Roxas went with Zexion to do some recon.

It's kind of funny that Roxas wasn't sent to CO but I think that has more to do with Xemnas.  It would be too risky for Xemnas to send Roxas there since he would collapse right after entering the castle due to Ven's influence or would be at a huge disadvantage and possibly life threatening situation if he were to be both there and facing off against his other.

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It makes sense why Saix and Axel drifted apart. They both kept secerts from each other as explained. Saix was also higher up on the food chain in the Organization, and didn't keep Axel in the loop on Xemnas's plans. Only the top dogs knew of the Replica project which Saix kept from Axel. It was only after Axel befriended Xion that he started to vaguely give Axel hints on what it was. And Axel made new friends and Saix saw this as a betrayal of sorts.

That portion kinda interest me. It always made me feel that Saix/Isa has abandonment issues. Even in Birth By Sleep, Isa scolded Lea for picking up another stray in Ventus. Maybe something happened with Isa that makes him defensive about people leaving him or something like that. I don't know but I'll have to see when KH3 arrives.

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21 hours ago, Allwil13 said:

I always got the impression that Xemnas took Saix under his wing and Saix just put all his faith in him. Saix was apparently second-in-command of the organization despite his rank of 7. The fact that Saix always refers to Xemnas as "Lord Xemnas" always gave me the impression that Saix saw him as almost a savior of sorts. And Axel seemed to view that with a certain level of contempt, which always made me think that he didn't trust Xemnas the way Saix did. If you watch the cutscene movie packaged with the HD collection you'll notice Axel always has this sarcastic tone when Saix talks about Xemnas to him.

So maybe Axel eventually confronted Saix about the whole thing and Saix disagreed, and maybe it escalated? And as a result this caused a rift between them. But that's just my theory.

I always got that feeling from Saix too until i read the novels, which made me look closer at his character.

In the novels you get more of a window into how this devotion is more of an act. You see the contempt and mistrust a lot more. And even in the games it's there but i never really noticed it from the subtlety. 

When you get into Saix point of view, he never thinks of Xemnas in any sort of devoted or special way. He sees Xemnas as poweful but doesnt trust him at all. He puts on a face.

Something i never took much notice of is how Saix refers to Xemnas. When he and Axel are talking about their plans and stuff, he drops the 'Lord' from Xemnas name. I never thought about it, but those moments showed a difference between Saix mask as a loyal underling to xemnas and how he really felt about him when plotting.

The novel actually brings attention to this detail through Axels point of view. 

 

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2 hours ago, Fates Chance XIII said:

I always got that feeling from Saix too until i read the novels, which made me look closer at his character.

In the novels you get more of a window into how this devotion is more of an act. You see the contempt and mistrust a lot more. And even in the games it's there but i never really noticed it from the subtlety. 

When you get into Saix point of view, he never thinks of Xemnas in any sort of devoted or special way. He sees Xemnas as powerful but doesnt trust him at all. He puts on a face.

Something i never took much notice of is how Saix refers to Xemnas. When he and Axel are talking about their plans and stuff, he drops the 'Lord' from Xemnas name. I never thought about it, but those moments showed a difference between Saix mask as a loyal underling to xemnas and how he really felt about him when plotting.

The novel actually brings attention to this detail through Axel's point of view. 

 

Days also revealed some information about Saix where he came into Axel's room asking if he found the chamber.  I know they were looking for the chamber to get leverage over Xemnas.  How would the chamber of helped them though?

I am also curious as to how the Organization functioned and came to be between BBS and KH1.  Was it formed shortly after the fall of Radiant Gardens?  When did Saix become second command and what was his purpose prior to Roxas showing up?  Did he become second in command after Zexion, Lexaeus and Vexen were wiped out?

I mean, what does it even mean to be second in command in the Organization?  All Saix did throughout Days was hand out missions in the Gray Area yet his throne was higher than 4-6.  Wasn't the Organization hierarchy based on high the thrones in Where Nothing Gathers were?  How is Saix's throne so tall if we never seen him go on any missions?  Why should he concern himself with Zexion being killed off indirectly by Axel?  The guy's throne was lower than his.

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