Why the Disney Worlds Matter (Part 2)

[Dave 5,715]

Part 1, which covers Kingdom Hearts 1, can be found here: http://kh13.com/forum/topic/49053-why-the-disney-worlds-matter/

 

In regards to Kingdom Hearts 2, the game starts out, interestingly enough, sans Disney for the entirety of Roxas's stay in Twilight Town. In the prologue, the themes and questions of the game are laid out for the audience. What does it mean to exist? What does it mean to be your own person, or at least unique in your own right? How tied are you to your past, at the expense of being who you are now? All this and more are at the forefront of Roxas's life in DiZ's computer, but they don't just up and vanish once Roxas's summer vacation is over. Indeed, once Sora, Donald, and Goofy begin to undertake their quest, the questions are dug into even more. Once we begin our foray into the Disney Worlds, they are scrutinized, examined, and usually end up providing an answer that helps Roxas's case to believe that he really does exist as his own person.

 

The Land of Dragons: Come on, you all know the words!

 

"Who is that girl I see

Staring straight back at me

When will my reflection show

Who I am inside?"

 

On top of being a really catchy tune, Mulan's story is a great one to juxtapose next to Roxas. Mulan's got a bevy of problems. She's stuck in a strictly organized society, being pressured into roles based solely on what the prime directive has declared she must do, and as a result, is never allowed to step out of bounds, or else be guilt tripped and regarded as a failure. But even in spite of this, there's a bigger problem at hand: she truly, genuinely cares for her father, and doesn't want to see him die as a result of being drafted. Thus, she takes his place, going rogue and donning a false identity in order to join the Chinese Army and fight the Huns. What happens here, then, is that Mulan is now two people: herself, and Ping. And for a long time, it feels that everything she does under the guise of Ping is limited solely to that persona, with nothing travelling back to Mulan herself. Even something like KOing the entire Hun army on his own only has merit when applied to Ping: when it's applied to Mulan, she is deemed worthless, and cast aside. This seems familiar for Roxas, at least from the perspective of DiZ. Roxas does not matter, but Sora does. There's nothing in Roxas's life worth saving, and any good he might have done in his rendition holds worth in and of itself. And thus, both Ping and Roxas vanish. However, although those faces are gone, what they have managed to accomplish is not gone. Mulan is still able to remind Chang and her war friends that everything that happened as Ping is still her: she, and her badassery, still exist. And so it is that she is able to rally her buds, bust into the palace, and kill the hell out of Shan Yu. Thus, it could be seen that even though Mulan existed temporarily in a state of falseness, what she did with her life is what made her matter, not whether or not she was "real." And this can be of some solace to Roxas: real or no, his life had merit, his actions had lasting repercussions, and he lived a life that was definitively his.

 

Beast's Castle: Once again, we have a protagonist that is simultaneously living as two people. For the Beast, it is complicated. He is trying to become a new man, but his physical state of being perpetually reminds him of his past. He's trying to live for the here and now, but everything else in his life is what has shackled him into this position. The question then becomes: how much of who we were in the past defines who we are right now? This is something that constantly pesters Roxas. The Organization plagues his every move, in spite of the fact that he no longer has any recollection of them, or his time there. It's the primary reason why DiZ wants him dead (or, at least, the fact that he was in league with the people responsible for punting Ansem out of office probably isn't helping his chances). Both characters are being held responsible for things in a space in time no longer applicable. So, what is the solution? For the Beast, he is indeed able to overcome his past: he learns how to love, and be loved in return, and the Beast that Belle loves by the end of the movie/game is indeed only linked to the past version of himself by name (in theory. I still have no idea what the guy's name is), and the fact that they both inhabit the same body. What matters is the prospect that people can not only change, they can find a different life outside of who they were as short as a year ago. Again, more hope for Roxas: he is not doomed to just be the Roxas who was picked up by the Organization. Had he been given time, he too, like the Beast, could have become his own, unique person, not doomed to being the same thing for the duration of his life.

 

 

Timeless River: The concept of Pete stealing Pete's boat never fails to make me grin. Future Pete is so full of skulduggery that he would even backstab himself! But again, what matters is the prospect of dual personalities. Both are the same Pete, yet one seems almost softer in a way, almost agreeable. Which begs the question, how much are the two Pete's responsible to one another? Can the black and white Pete be held liable for the sins of his future self, when he has no intention in the time and space he exists within to commit those crimes? For even if he does fight off future Pete, and wins for the time, he is still destined to become that same Pete later on. How much can the Pete's claim to be unique in their own right? They are, in fact, simultaneously both the same Pete, while still being their own version of Pete. Which brings us to Roxas and Sora, as well as Roxas in his Organization life. They are all the same person, while all being their own person.They each exist in a time and space where they can each claim to be unique, while being inevitably tied to one another. What this means, then, is that future Pete is proof that past Pete exists: for how could the present and future be there if not for the past? This, in turn, means that the fact that Sora is present means that Roxas too must have existed. His presence on the earth is not negligible, and is actually necessary in order for the future to continue.

 

Port Royal: The question that Will Turner faces is: how much of who he is now relates to who is connected to him? Meaning, of course, the fact that his father is a pirate, and how this reflects on Will himself. Again, apply this to Sora and Roxas: how much of Sora being Sora directly affects Roxas being Roxas. Both Roxas and Will have a dim view on the subject. WIll believes the fact that he's related to a pirate has practically stuck his own neck in the noose, which, ironically, is pretty much the case with Roxas. They are both in a position to be guilty by association. What, then, is the out-clause? For Will, he comes to accept the fact that he cannot change the past, his relation to it, or who his father is. But! This does not necessitate who he himself is. It is impossible to deny the heritage, but it is folly to live strictly by it. Will can be his own person; more importantly, he can CHOOSE who he can be. The possibility for autonomous action is present, meaning that his future is not painted into a corner by the past. Now, for Roxas, the case is a bit more murky, if only because he is actually destroyed by virtue of his relation to Sora. What matters, and what is worth noting, however, is that had DiZ not intervened, it would be fair to say that Roxas was indeed capable of becoming his own person. Granted, he would never be able to escape the fact that he was a part of Sora, but it does not mean that he is limited by it.

 

Agrabah: Iago's problem is essentially the same as that of the Beast, and thus I won't spend to much time on it. The only thing I think warrants more scrutiny is that, while Beast's past is out of sight and out of mind for the main cast, Sora and friends were actually directly inconvenienced by Iago in KH1, meaning that his past of treachery is still fresh in their minds. But it is worth noting that he is still able to turn his life around, and become a new bird. In this case, I think the reference is more directly applicable to perhaps Riku's relation to Roxas: Riku's only ever known him as the cause of problems, being that he was in the Organization, and thus is less inclined to be forgiving. Yet the lesson that can be learned for all is that, again, the past version of one's self should not be considered the only incarnation of a person's prospective existence.

 

Halloweentown: There are two Jacks to be seen here. One which loves frightening and scaring people, revelling in their screams. And another, which wants to see people be brought happiness and enjoys their smiles. Frankly, the two don't seem to work together, especially given how full bodied Jack seems to throw himself into either role, often embracing one at the expense of another. We are then presented the problem of two Jacks, each different, seemingly non compatible, and possibly with only one being able to exist at a time. Tie this in to the life of Sora and Roxas and his many incarnations. It is said that neither can really exist while the other is still around. But there is something that should be noted within both these cases. For Jack, both versions of himself are, in fact, completely correct and mutually compatible: they are both simply different versions of himself, which are always present, just muted at some times and awake at others. Christmas Jack and Halloween Jack can indeed be in existence at the same time, because they are both still Jack in the present time. For Roxas, what this means is that he can still be Sora, still be the version of himself in the Organization, and still be the version of himself in Twilight Town. The presence of one or the other does not inherently mean the version of himself in the here and now cannot be. And what might even be more odd, if you think about it, is that even in the case of Sora being alive and well, it actually means that Roxas is still existing. Roxas doesn't just go away just because Sora is here: he's simply in a different form. 

 

Pride Rock: Simba's saga is a neat little package consisting of the same issues that Will, the Beast, and Roxas all face. Simba cannot come to grips with his past: he believes that his father was killed as a result of his negligence, which is a thought that haunts him most of his adult life, compelling him to keep running from the problem. The same question keep arising: how much of the past defines who he is now? How can he escape the past? In regards to the latter question, the answer is different from that of the Beast: he comes to the conclusion that he cannot escape his past, and in fact in trying to do so, is making the problem worse. He is trying to deny a shocking incident of his childhood because he does not know how to accept it. And so he runs, and fights, but it isn't until the end, when he is forced to finally turn and accept his life for what it is that he's able to move on. That, really, is the ultimate sign of maturity: he forces himself to go back to Pride Rock and accept that his life needs to move on. He can still be his own person in the future, but in order to get that far, he needs to first reconcile with the past. And maybe, that's what drives Roxas at the end of his tunnel. He spends the final day in Twilight Town in denial and frustration, desperately trying to cling on to what he has left, yet all the while secretly knowing that this is not the answer. When that white pod finally opens, and Roxas is forced to look into the face of the boy who's presence means that it's game over, he seems shockingly calm. Perhaps he, like SImba, comes the realization that coming face to face with your greatest fears, and confronting all the is wrong with your past, is really the only way to move on with your future. For Simba, he's able to overcome the trauma of his father's death. For Roxas, although he loses his worldly form, we see at the end of KH2 that he has indeed found solace, such as it is.

 

Space Paranoids: Fun fact about Tron and Nobodies: neither of are supposed to be actually capable of feeling. Nobodies do not have the organs necessary to generate emotion, and Tron is simply the physical embodiment of numbers, which have no feelings, or indeed are capable of anything other than what their programmer has told them to do. Thus, Tron really ought to be a completely blank slate. Interestingly enough, though, this does not seem to completely limit Tron. In spite of having no practical reason to do so, he feels that the MCP is no good, mainly because of the latter's tendency to do physical harm to others. Tron, then, can sense the concept of right and wrong, as well as a slew of other irrational motivations: loyalty, compassion, and empathy, to name a few. Although he's not as fluent in the subject as someone like Sora is, the tendencies for having a heart is clearly still there. He's created out of bits and bytes, existing far less on this worldy plane that the Nobodies, yet even he is capable of generating emotion. Thus, it is perhaps not so impossible for the Nobodies, especially Roxas, to actually feel. For if a person has a heart, and is capable of registering thought enough to know how they feel about the situation, it is more than likely they exist. This is true of Tron, and surely the same can be said of Roxas.

 

 

I know I'm missing Olympus Coliseum, but I've just typed several thousand words, and I'm a little fried right now. I'll try to pick that up again later.

[Zola 3,038]

Eat your hearts out.

Dave has spoken.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Zola

[Kaweebo 3,617]

I feel much better after that disastrous thread about why they don't. 

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

The Beast's human name is Adam. 

I wonder how the worlds in KH III will tie into Sora and Riku's personal lives

Edited November 18, 2013 by Isamu_Kuno

[Jilly Shears 2,144]

[Kaweebo 3,617]

The Beast's human name is Adam.

I don't think that's ever been confirmed, but honestly I think it fits, anyway.

[KHUndertaleFan25 2,858]

Part 1, which covers Kingdom Hearts 1, can be found here: http://kh13.com/forum/topic/49053-why-the-disney-worlds-matter/

 

In regards to Kingdom Hearts 2, the game starts out, interestingly enough, sans Disney for the entirety of Roxas's stay in Twilight Town. In the prologue, the themes and questions of the game are laid out for the audience. What does it mean to exist? What does it mean to be your own person, or at least unique in your own right? How tied are you to your past, at the expense of being who you are now? All this and more are at the forefront of Roxas's life in DiZ's computer, but they don't just up and vanish once Roxas's summer vacation is over. Indeed, once Sora, Donald, and Goofy begin to undertake their quest, the questions are dug into even more. Once we begin our foray into the Disney Worlds, they are scrutinized, examined, and usually end up providing an answer that helps Roxas's case to believe that he really does exist as his own person.

 

The Land of Dragons: Come on, you all know the words!

 

"Who is that girl I see

Staring straight back at me

When will my reflection show

Who I am inside?"

 

On top of being a really catchy tune, Mulan's story is a great one to juxtapose next to Roxas. Mulan's got a bevy of problems. She's stuck in a strictly organized society, being pressured into roles based solely on what the prime directive has declared she must do, and as a result, is never allowed to step out of bounds, or else be guilt tripped and regarded as a failure. But even in spite of this, there's a bigger problem at hand: she truly, genuinely cares for her father, and doesn't want to see him die as a result of being drafted. Thus, she takes his place, going rogue and donning a false identity in order to join the Chinese Army and fight the Huns. What happens here, then, is that Mulan is now two people: herself, and Ping. And for a long time, it feels that everything she does under the guise of Ping is limited solely to that persona, with nothing travelling back to Mulan herself. Even something like KOing the entire Hun army on his own only has merit when applied to Ping: when it's applied to Mulan, she is deemed worthless, and cast aside. This seems familiar for Roxas, at least from the perspective of DiZ. Roxas does not matter, but Sora does. There's nothing in Roxas's life worth saving, and any good he might have done in his rendition holds worth in and of itself. And thus, both Ping and Roxas vanish. However, although those faces are gone, what they have managed to accomplish is not gone. Mulan is still able to remind Chang and her war friends that everything that happened as Ping is still her: she, and her badassery, still exist. And so it is that she is able to rally her buds, bust into the palace, and kill the hell out of Shan Yu. Thus, it could be seen that even though Mulan existed temporarily in a state of falseness, what she did with her life is what made her matter, not whether or not she was "real." And this can be of some solace to Roxas: real or no, his life had merit, his actions had lasting repercussions, and he lived a life that was definitively his.

 

Beast's Castle: Once again, we have a protagonist that is simultaneously living as two people. For the Beast, it is complicated. He is trying to become a new man, but his physical state of being perpetually reminds him of his past. He's trying to live for the here and now, but everything else in his life is what has shackled him into this position. The question then becomes: how much of who we were in the past defines who we are right now? This is something that constantly pesters Roxas. The Organization plagues his every move, in spite of the fact that he no longer has any recollection of them, or his time there. It's the primary reason why DiZ wants him dead (or, at least, the fact that he was in league with the people responsible for punting Ansem out of office probably isn't helping his chances). Both characters are being held responsible for things in a space in time no longer applicable. So, what is the solution? For the Beast, he is indeed able to overcome his past: he learns how to love, and be loved in return, and the Beast that Belle loves by the end of the movie/game is indeed only linked to the past version of himself by name (in theory. I still have no idea what the guy's name is), and the fact that they both inhabit the same body. What matters is the prospect that people can not only change, they can find a different life outside of who they were as short as a year ago. Again, more hope for Roxas: he is not doomed to just be the Roxas who was picked up by the Organization. Had he been given time, he too, like the Beast, could have become his own, unique person, not doomed to being the same thing for the duration of his life.

 

 

Timeless River: The concept of Pete stealing Pete's boat never fails to make me grin. Future Pete is so full of skulduggery that he would even backstab himself! But again, what matters is the prospect of dual personalities. Both are the same Pete, yet one seems almost softer in a way, almost agreeable. Which begs the question, how much are the two Pete's responsible to one another? Can the black and white Pete be held liable for the sins of his future self, when he has no intention in the time and space he exists within to commit those crimes? For even if he does fight off future Pete, and wins for the time, he is still destined to become that same Pete later on. How much can the Pete's claim to be unique in their own right? They are, in fact, simultaneously both the same Pete, while still being their own version of Pete. Which brings us to Roxas and Sora, as well as Roxas in his Organization life. They are all the same person, while all being their own person.They each exist in a time and space where they can each claim to be unique, while being inevitably tied to one another. What this means, then, is that future Pete is proof that past Pete exists: for how could the present and future be there if not for the past? This, in turn, means that the fact that Sora is present means that Roxas too must have existed. His presence on the earth is not negligible, and is actually necessary in order for the future to continue.

 

Port Royal: The question that Will Turner faces is: how much of who he is now relates to who is connected to him? Meaning, of course, the fact that his father is a pirate, and how this reflects on Will himself. Again, apply this to Sora and Roxas: how much of Sora being Sora directly affects Roxas being Roxas. Both Roxas and Will have a dim view on the subject. WIll believes the fact that he's related to a pirate has practically stuck his own neck in the noose, which, ironically, is pretty much the case with Roxas. They are both in a position to be guilty by association. What, then, is the out-clause? For Will, he comes to accept the fact that he cannot change the past, his relation to it, or who his father is. But! This does not necessitate who he himself is. It is impossible to deny the heritage, but it is folly to live strictly by it. Will can be his own person; more importantly, he can CHOOSE who he can be. The possibility for autonomous action is present, meaning that his future is not painted into a corner by the past. Now, for Roxas, the case is a bit more murky, if only because he is actually destroyed by virtue of his relation to Sora. What matters, and what is worth noting, however, is that had DiZ not intervened, it would be fair to say that Roxas was indeed capable of becoming his own person. Granted, he would never be able to escape the fact that he was a part of Sora, but it does not mean that he is limited by it.

 

Agrabah: Iago's problem is essentially the same as that of the Beast, and thus I won't spend to much time on it. The only thing I think warrants more scrutiny is that, while Beast's past is out of sight and out of mind for the main cast, Sora and friends were actually directly inconvenienced by Iago in KH1, meaning that his past of treachery is still fresh in their minds. But it is worth noting that he is still able to turn his life around, and become a new bird. In this case, I think the reference is more directly applicable to perhaps Riku's relation to Roxas: Riku's only ever known him as the cause of problems, being that he was in the Organization, and thus is less inclined to be forgiving. Yet the lesson that can be learned for all is that, again, the past version of one's self should not be considered the only incarnation of a person's prospective existence.

 

Halloweentown: There are two Jacks to be seen here. One which loves frightening and scaring people, revelling in their screams. And another, which wants to see people be brought happiness and enjoys their smiles. Frankly, the two don't seem to work together, especially given how full bodied Jack seems to throw himself into either role, often embracing one at the expense of another. We are then presented the problem of two Jacks, each different, seemingly non compatible, and possibly with only one being able to exist at a time. Tie this in to the life of Sora and Roxas and his many incarnations. It is said that neither can really exist while the other is still around. But there is something that should be noted within both these cases. For Jack, both versions of himself are, in fact, completely correct and mutually compatible: they are both simply different versions of himself, which are always present, just muted at some times and awake at others. Christmas Jack and Halloween Jack can indeed be in existence at the same time, because they are both still Jack in the present time. For Roxas, what this means is that he can still be Sora, still be the version of himself in the Organization, and still be the version of himself in Twilight Town. The presence of one or the other does not inherently mean the version of himself in the here and now cannot be. And what might even be more odd, if you think about it, is that even in the case of Sora being alive and well, it actually means that Roxas is still existing. Roxas doesn't just go away just because Sora is here: he's simply in a different form. 

 

Pride Rock: Simba's saga is a neat little package consisting of the same issues that Will, the Beast, and Roxas all face. Simba cannot come to grips with his past: he believes that his father was killed as a result of his negligence, which is a thought that haunts him most of his adult life, compelling him to keep running from the problem. The same question keep arising: how much of the past defines who he is now? How can he escape the past? In regards to the latter question, the answer is different from that of the Beast: he comes to the conclusion that he cannot escape his past, and in fact in trying to do so, is making the problem worse. He is trying to deny a shocking incident of his childhood because he does not know how to accept it. And so he runs, and fights, but it isn't until the end, when he is forced to finally turn and accept his life for what it is that he's able to move on. That, really, is the ultimate sign of maturity: he forces himself to go back to Pride Rock and accept that his life needs to move on. He can still be his own person in the future, but in order to get that far, he needs to first reconcile with the past. And maybe, that's what drives Roxas at the end of his tunnel. He spends the final day in Twilight Town in denial and frustration, desperately trying to cling on to what he has left, yet all the while secretly knowing that this is not the answer. When that white pod finally opens, and Roxas is forced to look into the face of the boy who's presence means that it's game over, he seems shockingly calm. Perhaps he, like SImba, comes the realization that coming face to face with your greatest fears, and confronting all the is wrong with your past, is really the only way to move on with your future. For Simba, he's able to overcome the trauma of his father's death. For Roxas, although he loses his worldly form, we see at the end of KH2 that he has indeed found solace, such as it is.

 

Space Paranoids: Fun fact about Tron and Nobodies: neither of are supposed to be actually capable of feeling. Nobodies do not have the organs necessary to generate emotion, and Tron is simply the physical embodiment of numbers, which have no feelings, or indeed are capable of anything other than what their programmer has told them to do. Thus, Tron really ought to be a completely blank slate. Interestingly enough, though, this does not seem to completely limit Tron. In spite of having no practical reason to do so, he feels that the MCP is no good, mainly because of the latter's tendency to do physical harm to others. Tron, then, can sense the concept of right and wrong, as well as a slew of other irrational motivations: loyalty, compassion, and empathy, to name a few. Although he's not as fluent in the subject as someone like Sora is, the tendencies for having a heart is clearly still there. He's created out of bits and bytes, existing far less on this worldy plane that the Nobodies, yet even he is capable of generating emotion. Thus, it is perhaps not so impossible for the Nobodies, especially Roxas, to actually feel. For if a person has a heart, and is capable of registering thought enough to know how they feel about the situation, it is more than likely they exist. This is true of Tron, and surely the same can be said of Roxas.

 

 

I know I'm missing Olympus Coliseum, but I've just typed several thousand words, and I'm a little fried right now. I'll try to pick that up again later.

Edited November 18, 2013 by KingdomHearts25

[Varnish 319]

I know that this is probably directed at me, but I am not going to be bothered in replying to this properly. I read both of those "essays", and they have done nothing for me.

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

I don't think that's ever been confirmed, but honestly I think it fits, anyway.

It was conformed in a (admittedly third party) video game that ties in with the movie. (though this may change in the prequel novel that is being written.) Nevertheless, Disney continues to use it for their Disney Princes line.Just as "The Prince" (Florian) from Snow White was confirmed when the Princesses line first started, "Prince Charming (Henry) was confirmed in the sequels to Cinderella and "The Queen" (Grimhilde) was confirmed in comic adaptations of the movie.

Though all these names were only created after the initial events of the movies. 

So while these names may not technically be "official" if Disney chooses to use fan-made names rather than ones they make themselves, I have no problem considering them canon. Not that they have much choice. Just about everybody accepts these names and it would take a great deal of time and effort to change public opinion. So they've pretty much been forced to make the fan names the actual names.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Isamu_Kuno

[Kaweebo 3,617]

It was conformed in a audio CD that ties in with the movie.Just as "The Prince" (Florian) from Snow White was confirmed when the Princesses line first started and "Prince Charming (Henry) was confirmed in the sequels to Cinderella

Well, then you've earned my respect on Disney movie knowledge. I thought I was smart for knowing the evil queen's name from Snow White.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Kaweebo

[keystrike 145]

Its been a while since I've seen such a long post! Looks like it will be fun to read but I'll have to get to it later.

[xoblivionx13 1,133]

 Genie approves.

 

 

 

 

 So does this guy. 

 

Edited November 18, 2013 by xoblivionx13

[PillowHead 569]

I've been waiting for another bit of Dave genius.  Thank you so much for restoring my hope in the fanbase.  Extremely well put.

[CROW 115]

Beautifully written. And there I realize that I need to look more deeply into things concerning KH. I feel like I actually know nothing about it. 

 

I should probably hate you for making me realize it, but I will instead hate myself for not digging deep enough myself. 

 

*claps*

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

Well, then you've earned my respect on Disney movie knowledge. I thought I was smart for knowing the evil queen's name from Snow White.

I'll admit, I had to re do the research. (hence all the edits) But at this point, Disney has pretty much been forced to make fan names canon.

[Keyblader 325]

There was a split second where I noticed that you didn't put up anything about Atlantica..now, excuse me while I go cut off my big toe as a penance for such horrible thoughts.

 

But seriously, I don't have the focus to do stuff like this.  Believe me, I've tried, and it gets no where cause I'm so lazy Good work Dave.

[Handsome_the_Wise 20]

I know that this is probably directed at me, but I am not going to be bothered in replying to this properly. I read both of those "essays", and they have done nothing for me.

 

Dave started threads like these before you even registered.