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Cucco

It's Only Sexist When Men Do It

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you cant be sexist towards men tho. we live in a patriarchal society, so men have power. the oppressed (women) can't be sexist towards their oppressor (men).

 

the reason why men making jokes about violence towards women is wrong is bc in real life, men do have power in society and violence towards women happens every day. it's not a double standard

Edited by Godot

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I'm not trying to start anything, but I beg to differ. Saying all men are the same women-bashing pigs is no better than a man making a cringeworthy women-making a sandwich or in the kitchen joke. Sure, some of us guys deserve it, but honestly, as a guy I feel offended being listed as "just the same" as the other ones. It's not like I had a choice to be born as a guy or anything. Jeesh.

mmmm it all goes back to what i said about oppression. honestly, compared to how women are treated in society, being called a women-bashing pig is really nothing, and isn't as bad as a sexist joke against women. im not saying anything about you personally, or any guy specifically, and i can confirm that when people say that, they aren't talking about all men--just the ones who do say and do sexist things. i dont want to clog up this thread anymore but yeah thats rly what im trying to say

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mmmm it all goes back to what i said about oppression. honestly, compared to how women are treated in society, being called a women-bashing pig is really nothing, and isn't as bad as a sexist joke against women. im not saying anything about you personally, or any guy specifically, and i can confirm that when people say that, they aren't talking about all men--just the ones who do say and do sexist things. i dont want to clog up this thread anymore but yeah thats rly what im trying to say

You're right, it's not as bad, but people can still say some pretty nasty things. Anyway let's just end this here before things spiral out of control like others predicted.

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I feel like it stems from the sexist idea that women are the weaker sex and must be protected, that and for many years women, in bygone times, woman had little to no right to stand up to a man.

In my opinion most civil rights movements, when they succeed, make it so now the next generation of common person of the formerly oppressive group doesn't oppress. But there are still cases of the oppressive group still oppressing, even though it is now a minority, so the oppressive group must still be evil. EVIL. And if you sympathize with any of the oppressive group in a dispute in between the two groups, YOU MUST BE EVIL TOO! 

My opinion may be totally wrong. Though I just wish justice could be equal among all groups. And if there is an oppressive group just ACTUALLY deal with the ones who break laws, don't put more restrictions on them. REBOOT THE GUILLOTINE FOR PUBLIC EXAMPLES! (I am joking about that last part)But what I am saying is in a perfect world all groups would be treated relatively equally, there wouldn't be preferential laws for any group. Not for jobs, not for courts, not for anything. Everyone would be judged according to their own capabilities, motives, and actions. And not their gender, skin tone, or religion.

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Example: New fathers only get 2 weeks paternity leave when they have a baby.  Some guys actually like to bond with their kid.  The "sharing of caring" is considerably unbalanced.  On that note, parents don't have equal rights when it comes to children.  Regardless of the woman's history, she is generally always favored.  There's a case where a woman was giving up her child, she had a history of alcohol and drug abuse, and soon as the dad said he wanted it (whom had no history of drug abuse, a steady job and home) instead of letting it be adopted, she changed her mind and was granted custody even with her history.

 

Example: Woman attacks man in public and he defends himself and hits her back.  His behavior is disgusting but her's isn't?  They should just sit back and let them beat them because the public stereotype is that men are stronger?  There are plenty of women stronger than men.  The same reaction wouldn't be brought if a man hits a weaker man who hit him.

 

Example: Men can't be raped.  9000 were reported last year.  

 

Example: Prostate cancer is the second most common cancer to cause deaths per year, but doesn't receive anywhere near as much advertising, campaigning, funding or acknowledgment as breast cancer.

 

Example: There is a law protecting females from genital mutilation but there is no such law for male infants.  Why discriminate, shouldn't it be illegal to mutilate the body of any unconsenting minor?

 

Example: Lifetime alimony payments are a joke.  It's understandable when a woman quits work to raise the kids, but why isn't she going back into work after they're in primary school?  Why should an ex-husband have to finance her life years after they parted?  

 

 

These things are all fine 'cause more female sexism is more rampant.  Just like when a person is raped is totally okay cause there was someone who was gang raped and that's much worse so it belittles the former; so it's totally justifiable to be a dick based on their gender.  

violence towards men =/= sexism

 

it's not justifiable to be a dick based on gender but it would be incorrect to call it sexism due to the oppression thing i mentioned earlier. it's not ok to rape men, and the reason why so little male rapes are reported is because of the patriarchal assumption that all men love sex and that he should be a man and "suck it up" if he gets raped which is incorrect and extremely harmful. the same thing goes with the "it's okay to be abusive towards a man, but not a woman" which is also wrong.

 

and the point you made about breast cancer and prostate cancer is extremely cissexist and irrelevant. 

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violence towards men =/= sexism

 

it's not justifiable to be a dick based on gender but it would be incorrect to call it sexism due to the oppression thing i mentioned earlier. it's not ok to rape men, and the reason why so little male rapes are reported is because of the patriarchal assumption that all men love sex and that he should be a man and "suck it up" if he gets raped which is incorrect and extremely harmful. the same thing goes with the "it's okay to be abusive towards a man, but not a woman" which is also wrong.

 

and the point you made about breast cancer and prostate cancer is extremely cissexist and irrelevant. 

 

Ok, so 9000 reports are "so little"?

 

Ok, so it's fine to have a prostate cancer, it's "irrelevant".

 

But if it's breast cancer, OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD

 

Cancers are all the same. It's cancer. It doesn't matter where it is, it can still kill you.

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I didn't say violence towards men is sexism.  Berating a man  because he defended himself against a female is sexist, because if they roles were reversed, in both situations, he's the monster.  That idea is just supporting the idea that women are the weaker sex and need protecting.

 

"Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender."

Sexism by definition is not "the mistreatment towards an oppressed/oppressed badly in the past and thus must be treated like never-can-do-wrong-saints group.  It's mistreating someone based on their gender, and women aren't the only victims of it.  My examples were all points to this that sexism isn't just a female thing, and the kind of thinking that it is is just leaving the door open to allow it to happen and oppress men from reporting it.  Shitty things in the past or your personal past don't justify trying to oppress other people, even when there is a history or number of people who engaged in it, they don't speak for an entire gender.  

thats the dictionary definition that isnt used when talking about this situation. you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how oppression works--one group has power (in this case men) that they use to oppress another group who historically does not have as much power. sexism is built off of oppression. you can be discriminatory towards men which isn't ok, but you can't be sexist towards them. either way, it's not the same thing.

 

Ok, so 9000 reports are "so little"?

 

Ok, so it's fine to have a prostate cancer, it's "irrelevant".

 

But if it's breast cancer, OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD

 

Cancers are all the same. It's cancer. It doesn't matter where it is, it can still kill you.

you didn't even try to understand what im saying. 9000 reports isnt a little but the reason why more action isn't taken is because of what i said before. i said that argument was irrelevant because it's cissexist--not all men have prostates and not all women have breasts. it's exclusionary towards trans and nb people and has nothing to do with the argument at hand. i never said it was fine to have prostate cancer and that it was bad to have breast cancer, please stop putting words in my mouth. 

 

anyway if any of you want to ask me privately about this (w/out being rude please) then you can do that but im not going to add more to this thread. peace out

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okay ewww I agree with everything Godot said. SMH. I think everyone here is just jumping on the fact that for once men are taking some abuse. And is it wrong to discriminate against men? Yeah. But you all are completely invalidating everything shitty that happens to women. Sacha mentioned the patriarchy earlier on--it's men's faults that men are called sexist when they do things. We live in a patriarchal society, and because of this MEN pick how they are portrayed. Men are the ones mocking men when they get raped (and feminist groups usually are the ones standing up for those men), men are the ones creating rules about how to act around women, men are the ones who have created this stereotype against themselves about being "strong, tough, not caring about pain or family". That view is thankfully changing, but it's because of the patriarchy that men are being discriminated against. Laws and most peoples' actions are based on how they were raised and what they were taught to believe, and they were brought up in a patriarchy. Women can be discriminatory towards men (after, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of years of abuse) but men are the ones who are making things like short paternity leaves, etc. okay. Literally none of this is the fault of women. 

 

Women can't be sexist against men anyway. Sexism is like racism in the respect that you need to be in a position of power to be racist/sexist against someone. A black person cannot be racist toward a white person because they don't have an entire nation catering to them (aka power), BUT they can discriminate. It's the same for men and women. Women cannot be sexist toward men because they don't have the same power in society (aka sexism). 

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Can you explain exactly why you don't take the actual dictionary definitions of words into account?

I Googled the dictionary definition just for kicks, and it does clarify "especially towards women", but in case that isn't enough: 

 

 

 

A woman can have power, and a man can be oppressed. But the woman’s power does not come from being a woman, and the man’s oppression does not come from being a man.

 

The point is, sexism is a power dynamic. You need to have power over the person you're being sexist towards. Men are born with power simply because they are men, and women do not have that power because they're not men. I'll use racism as an example: imagine the 1920's era, or any other super racist time you want. Black people could hate white people. They could call them names and stuff if they wanted. But they would never be the president, they would never be the boss of, they would never pass laws discriminating against white people. But since white people were in power, white people could kill them, blame them, and do whatever the heck crap they wanted. Those white people were being racist. Those black people could be rude to white people, but they couldn't be racist: they could only discriminate, but they didn't have the power to do anything else. 

 

Anyway, as I stated earlier, all the issues men face in regards to this stuff is a result of the patriarchy, so it's basically men causing these problems for themselves. 

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I will not argue that almost all groups can oppress it is just the most powerful group can oppress the most. Even if that's what I believe. Though I will admit it is hard to defend that stance given the dictionary definition of "oppression" (depending on the dictionary).

thats the dictionary definition that isnt used when talking about this situation.

So, your definition is basically oppression by gender differences?Dictionaries are used to unite people under common meanings of words in a language. If everyone disregarded the dictionary there would be utter chaos in a common language.So, I honestly DON'T CARE what you think about gender differences and oppression, nor do I care to convince you to think like me about them. But DON'T ATTACK DICTIONARIES, just cause they don't let you use a word how you want to use it.And yes if a word is used one way long enough it will get into a Dictionary with that definition. Or will be a commonly known slang word. But still without a dictionary different groups of people would develop their own dialects, and inter group conversations would become harder and harder as time progresses. And harder it gets to communicate the more chaos will reign and the stronger OPPRESSION will get.It is fine if you don't believe me, but I'll stand by that standardized meanings of words in dictionaries are EXTREMELY important.I used all caps for emphasis on words, not for yelling. But if you want to read them that way that's fine.

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I Googled the dictionary definition just for kicks, and it does clarify "especially towards women", but in case that isn't enough: 

 

 

No, that isn't enough, because even if it is especially against women, the definition still doesn't exclude men. It still encompasses hate towards another individual based only on their sex.

 
sex·ism
ˈsekˌsizəm/
noun
noun: sexism
1.

 prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

 

 To ignore this is to make your argument invalid.  You are using a word by your unique definition when everyone you're arguing against is using that word by a different one (the one that is actually in the dictionary). It will lead nowhere and will only be a circlejerk for all involved. Based on that, I'll opt out of arguing this any further, and I recommend everyone else in the thread do the same.

 

If two teams are playing by a different rulebook, the game isn't going to go well.

Edited by RoxSox

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Okay, I'll play your game: assuming sexism can be applied to both genders, then so what? Women being sexist doesn't achieve anything. Maybe, occasionally, it'll get a man fired, but most time it's just women venting and men's feelings getting hurt. Men's sexism results in murder, abuse, assault, sexist laws, sexist public opinion, etc

 

With that said, do these really seem like the same thing? 

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