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When Riku shows up in "The World that Never Was" is Riku still in Sora's dream or in the real world because he and and sora are still wearing the same clothes.

 

Also how were Mickey, Donald, Goofy, and Axel drop in. Because Riku and Sora are still in the past, so how did those 4 go back in time.

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 I want to ask more about the World That Never Was. Is that world a part of reality? Or is also a world of sleep?

Nomura: When that world’s logo appears, it indicates the boundary between the dream and reality. When Sora arrives, it’s reality and then goes into a world of sleep. Riku arrives in the sleeping world, and as you progress and the world logo appears, that’s when it becomes reality.

— When both of them are in the reality parts, they don’t return to their original bodies. Why is that?

Nomura: It’s because of Yen Sid’s magic that they’ve taken their old forms. If they didn’t return to Yen Sid’s place, their bodies wouldn’t return back to normal. Incidentally, their new outfits were thanks to Yen Sid’s magic as Sora suspected.

 

In the latter half of The World That Never Was, despite returning to the real world, why do Sora and co. stay in that form and why do Dream Eaters appear etc?

Nomura: Sora and co.’s form is due to Yen Sid’s magic, so the way it works is that they can’t turn back until they return to the Mysterious Tower, and Dream Eaters were appearing because Sora was still asleep. Also, ever since Organisation XIII was defeated in KH2, the The World That Never Was’ existence as a world has become uncertain. In the first place, the worlds in the rift between darkness and light have different rules than other worlds. The Mysterious Tower isn’t always standing in a fixed place. Traverse Town too reforms its shape every time, which is why the version that appears in this title is clearly different than the version in KH1.

 

 

 

 

 All that stuff is answered in those Nomura interview quotes. Sora arrives awake while leaving asleep. Riku arrives asleep but leaves awake ..TWTNW is an inbetween world and bc of that can be accessed in many different realms- RoL,RoS, etc etc so that's how others can drop in. They entered through the RoL basically..

 

Btw by the time they were in TWTNW they weren't in the past.. Once they entered the RoS they were outside of time pretty much.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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They're in the same clothes because they're still in their past bodies and their consciousnesses haven't been returned to their present bodies yet. As for the world thing: Sora first appeared in the real world, then fell into a dream of that world, while Riku was in a dream of Sora's dream of that world, then Sora fell to slumber and was stuck asleep in the Chasm of Dreams while his body was in the real world, and when that happened Riku appeared in the real world with his powers in tact. Hope that helps. :3

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 I want to ask more about the World That Never Was. Is that world a part of reality? Or is also a world of sleep?

Nomura: When that world’s logo appears, it indicates the boundary between the dream and reality. When Sora arrives, it’s reality and then goes into a world of sleep. Riku arrives in the sleeping world, and as you progress and the world logo appears, that’s when it becomes reality.

— When both of them are in the reality parts, they don’t return to their original bodies. Why is that?

Nomura: It’s because of Yen Sid’s magic that they’ve taken their old forms. If they didn’t return to Yen Sid’s place, their bodies wouldn’t return back to normal. Incidentally, their new outfits were thanks to Yen Sid’s magic as Sora suspected.

 

In the latter half of The World That Never Was, despite returning to the real world, why do Sora and co. stay in that form and why do Dream Eaters appear etc?

Nomura: Sora and co.’s form is due to Yen Sid’s magic, so the way it works is that they can’t turn back until they return to the Mysterious Tower, and Dream Eaters were appearing because Sora was still asleep. Also, ever since Organisation XIII was defeated in KH2, the The World That Never Was’ existence as a world has become uncertain. In the first place, the worlds in the rift between darkness and light have different rules than other worlds. The Mysterious Tower isn’t always standing in a fixed place. Traverse Town too reforms its shape every time, which is why the version that appears in this title is clearly different than the version in KH1.

 

 

 

 

 All that stuff is answered in those Nomura interview quotes. Sora arrives awake while leaving asleep. Riku arrives asleep but leaves awake ..TWTNW is an inbetween world and bc of that can be accessed in many different realms- RoL,RoS, etc etc so that's how others can drop in. They entered through the RoL basically..

 

Btw by the time they were in TWTNW they weren't in the past.. Once they entered the RoS they were outside of time pretty much.

 

Thanks but one last thing why does RIku still count as a Dream eater if he's back in the real world and not inside Soras dream anymore, because they still are wearing the same clothes.

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They're in the same clothes because they're still in their past bodies and their consciousnesses haven't been returned to their present bodies yet. As for the world thing: Sora first appeared in the real world, then fell into a dream of that world, while Riku was in a dream of Sora's dream of that world, then Sora fell to slumber and was stuck asleep in the Chasm of Dreams while his body was in the real world, and when that happened Riku appeared in the real world with his powers in tact. Hope that helps. :3

Yep that Helps! Thanks still don't fully understand it but I'm trying lol.

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Thanks but one last thing why does RIku still count as a Dream eater if he's back in the real world and not inside Soras dream anymore, because they still are wearing the same clothes.

 

Did you read the interview where it said they were in the same clothes bc of Yen Sids magic? - NOT bc they were in their past bodies. They would not change back regardless until they returned to the Mysterious Tower bc of that. Yen Sid changed their clothes and bodies so they could relearn the ways of the keyblade from scratch the proper way.They had previously winged it.Also read this thread where I posted and Ultima Rob posted bc we talk about how Yen Sid sent them back in time without shedding their bodies with his own method and how this happened. There are different versions of time travel used in KH just like Timeless River was also different. Heres the thread ..http://kh13.com/forum/topic/85888-ddd/

Edited by Flaming Lea

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 I want to ask more about the World That Never Was. Is that world a part of reality? Or is also a world of sleep?

Nomura: When that world’s logo appears, it indicates the boundary between the dream and reality. When Sora arrives, it’s reality and then goes into a world of sleep. Riku arrives in the sleeping world, and as you progress and the world logo appears, that’s when it becomes reality.

— When both of them are in the reality parts, they don’t return to their original bodies. Why is that?

Nomura: It’s because of Yen Sid’s magic that they’ve taken their old forms. If they didn’t return to Yen Sid’s place, their bodies wouldn’t return back to normal. Incidentally, their new outfits were thanks to Yen Sid’s magic as Sora suspected.

 

In the latter half of The World That Never Was, despite returning to the real world, why do Sora and co. stay in that form and why do Dream Eaters appear etc?

Nomura: Sora and co.’s form is due to Yen Sid’s magic, so the way it works is that they can’t turn back until they return to the Mysterious Tower, and Dream Eaters were appearing because Sora was still asleep. Also, ever since Organisation XIII was defeated in KH2, the The World That Never Was’ existence as a world has become uncertain. In the first place, the worlds in the rift between darkness and light have different rules than other worlds. The Mysterious Tower isn’t always standing in a fixed place. Traverse Town too reforms its shape every time, which is why the version that appears in this title is clearly different than the version in KH1.

 

 

 

 

 All that stuff is answered in those Nomura interview quotes. Sora arrives awake while leaving asleep. Riku arrives asleep but leaves awake ..TWTNW is an inbetween world and bc of that can be accessed in many different realms- RoL,RoS, etc etc so that's how others can drop in. They entered through the RoL basically..

 

Btw by the time they were in TWTNW they weren't in the past.. Once they entered the RoS they were outside of time pretty much.

 

Yea I'm starting to get it, but 2 last questions, after they enter the first sleeping world were they still in the past or did Ansem take them back to the present and also was Traverse Town technically a sleeping world 

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Yea I'm starting to get it, but 2 last questions, after they enter the first sleeping world were they still in the past or did Ansem take them back to the present and also was Traverse Town technically a sleeping world

 

 

Once they entered the RoS they were outside of time altogether and time didn't really flow at all. The world's dreams presented themselves to be in different periods of time basically replaying the worlds events over and over at the time the world fell to sleep.

 

Well Traverse Town is technically an inbetween world BUT Joshua called it into the RoS for his own use.Traverse Town has always been whatever to whoever needed it bc it's an inbetween world.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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Did you read the interview where it said they were in the same clothes bc of Yen Sids magic? - NOT bc they were in their past bodies. They would not change back regardless until they returned to the Mysterious Tower bc of that. Yen Sid changed their clothes and bodies so they could relearn the ways of the keyblade from scratch the proper way.They had previously winged it.Also read this thread where I posted and Ultima Rob posted bc we talk about how Yen Sid sent them back in time without shedding their bodies with his own method and how this happened. There are different versions of time travel used in KH just like Timeless River was also different. Heres the thread ..http://kh13.com/forum/topic/85888-ddd/

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII......don't know about that. It doesn't seem to add up that well. They were pretty clear about how strict those rules are, and Merlin's time travel door seemed to have special rules of their own. Even Xigbar himself states, IN-GAME might I add, "You were only able to go back in time before your home became a sleeping world because a past version of you already existed there." The way that it sounds, Xigbar is explaining that Sora and Riku were sent back in time through the same method that Young Xehanort would later explain, by leaving your body behind and that there must be a version of you awaiting at your destination, presumably for you to take control of while you're back in time. Regardless of what Nomura said, nothing seems to indicate that Yen Sid did anything different for Sora and Riku. The clothes I can buy, but the idea that Sora and Riku are on Destiny Islands magically reverted to their younger selves and don't ever accidentally come across the actual past versions of themselves at all or cause any confusion whatsoever? Yeah, that's very hard to swallow.

 

I'm not saying that anything Nomura says is without merit, the guy thought all of this up for crying out loud. However, there have been plenty of times where what he explains the reasons for something happening are in Ultimania and how it's portrayed and shown in-game are in heavy conflict with each other. Take that into consideration along with the idea that how he stated the explanation could have been interpreted in several different ways and you basically have a really really vague explanation about how something worked without even spelling it out as most people need it to be sometimes.

 

The way that I see it, the "magic" Nomura refers to that Yen Sid uses is magic that allows their bodies to be in tact while their consciousnesses are transported to the past, allowing them to take control of their younger bodies (ala X-Men: Days of Future Past). Using their younger bodies (and Riku possibly giving himself a haircut to stay consistent with the fact that he had already cut it in his current body), Sora and Riku take the raft out to sea while the world is slowly falling to the Heartless and fight off the Phantom Ursula that Yen Sid likely conjured up to act as the first part of the actual exam. After that, when they sink into the sea and unlock the Sleeping Keyhole they enter the Realm of Sleep where they then assume their new clothes that Yen Sid also likely made for them once they entered. The only exceptions to his touch on the outfits being the Recusant's Sigil on Sora's chest (placed by either Robed Ansem or Young Xehanort) and the Spirit emblem on Riku's back (as a result of him entering Sora's dreams as a pseudo Dream Eater after seeing Ansem). Back in the present, Sora and Riku's present bodies are probably kept in the wardrobe room, likely the reason why they aren't present in any scene in the tower's study. As for the Organization's plan, it doesn't matter how old Sora's body is, they still want Sora himself, and through their method Sora would be stuck in slumber no matter which body his heart was in. It wasn't even his body they were exactly after, they wanted to corrupt his heart with Xehanort's, that way no matter what kind of body Sora has he would be a Seeker. So it's likely that after escaping Xehanort's clutches they returned Sora and Riku's younger bodies back to their proper time with no memory of what happened, with past-Sora's heart and consciousness being restored to normal (so he may wake up) as present-Sora's are transferred back to his present body, which won't wake up because of the state his heart is in.

 

As for Riku's second dive into Sora's dream, that's a bit harder to explain with this theory. He enters while in his present body but he takes on the appearance of his younger self. My explanation that I'll offer is that Yen Sid's magic allowed Riku to gain that as a pseudo form for his dive, or because Riku can now access the dream worlds whenever he wants he can likely have control over his own appearance (which is also why Sora keeps his older appearance at the end of the game when he visits Traverse Town), so he probably chose that form because he still needed access to his Dream Eater powers to awaken Sora. It's likely some sort of metaphor for lucid dreaming, where one has complete control over themselves in their dream. One can even decide how they appear or see themselves, whereas non-lucid (or typical) dreamers have no conscious control or attention over their appearance and can sometimes shift between their perceived appearances. In the beginning and bulk of their adventure they were in their young bodies and they had begun with their skills anew, and had no experience with the Realm of Sleep or their dream abilities, so really they didn't have mastery over things such as their ability to come and go between the real world and dream world or their actual appearance. This is evident when Sora is stuck in the nightmare Organization XIII forced him into, where he is constantly shifting from his younger self, his present self, his dream appearance, his childhood self, and even Ventus. But at the end of the game he is not only able to travel between the real world and the Realm of Sleep, but he is also able to maintain his present appearance as well, whereas Riku seemed to consciously change his appearance to his Dream Eater self for the purpose I mentioned before.

 

With all these bases covered, I believe that the method used in the game for Sora and Riku is the same method of time travel that everyone in 3D explains as "the laws of time travel", and that Nomura meant as much but as usual left things a bit vague with how Yen Sid managed things. After all, it would technically be through Yen Sid's magic that Sora and Riku where able to possess their younger selves, and Yen Sid also likely had the means to return their consciousnesses to their proper bodies and guide their past bodies back to whence they came, thus why they couldn't regain their normal forms until they returned to his tower. I feel that the exact nature of this whole game, until it is explained in the clearest most spelled-out way possible with no way to mistake how it's stated, will have to be interpreted in many ways by fans in order to make sense of the whole extra layer of confusion and complication it brings to the delicious multiflavored cake that is the Kingdom Hearts series. That's not to say that your theory doesn't have precedent, it's entirely possible that through the magic door explanation, Yen Sid just has the power to transform Sora and Riku to their younger selves and send them back into the past at a point in time without any sacrifice before the islands where destroyed without running into anyone who might notice two sets of Sora and Riku running around (okay, that had a little more sass than I meant to put in there). My only problem with that theory is that when you get down to it, it really wouldn't be that different if he had done things the "established" way and just sent their consciousnesses back in time and then returned their past bodies back later, so why not do it that way? Really though, I'm just hoping to get a clear and unmistakable explanation as to how the whole thing works. Otherwise, I just have to take it like the Roxas fainting because his two real selves are NOT in the same place at the same time ever and pray that it actually works.

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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII......don't know about that. It doesn't seem to add up that well. They were pretty clear about how strict those rules are, and Merlin's time travel door seemed to have special rules of their own. Even Xigbar himself states, IN-GAME might I add, "You were only able to go back in time before your home became a sleeping world because a past version of you already existed there." The way that it sounds, Xigbar is explaining that Sora and Riku were sent back in time through the same method that Young Xehanort would later explain, by leaving your body behind and that there must be a version of you awaiting at your destination, presumably for you to take control of while you're back in time. Regardless of what Nomura said, nothing seems to indicate that Yen Sid did anything different for Sora and Riku. The clothes I can buy, but the idea that Sora and Riku are on Destiny Islands magically reverted to their younger selves and don't ever accidentally come across the actual past versions of themselves at all or cause any confusion whatsoever? Yeah, that's very hard to swallow.

 

I'm not saying that anything Nomura says is without merit, the guy thought all of this up for crying out loud. However, there have been plenty of times where what he explains the reasons for something happening are in Ultimania and how it's portrayed and shown in-game are in heavy conflict with each other. Take that into consideration along with the idea that how he stated the explanation could have been interpreted in several different ways and you basically have a really really vague explanation about how something worked without even spelling it out as most people need it to be sometimes.

 

The way that I see it, the "magic" Nomura refers to that Yen Sid uses is magic that allows their bodies to be in tact while their consciousnesses are transported to the past, allowing them to take control of their younger bodies (ala X-Men: Days of Future Past). Using their younger bodies (and Riku possibly giving himself a haircut to stay consistent with the fact that he had already cut it in his current body), Sora and Riku take the raft out to sea while the world is slowly falling to the Heartless and fight off the Phantom Ursula that Yen Sid likely conjured up to act as the first part of the actual exam. After that, when they sink into the sea and unlock the Sleeping Keyhole they enter the Realm of Sleep where they then assume their new clothes that Yen Sid also likely made for them once they entered. The only exceptions to his touch on the outfits being the Recusant's Sigil on Sora's chest (placed by either Robed Ansem or Young Xehanort) and the Spirit emblem on Riku's back (as a result of him entering Sora's dreams as a pseudo Dream Eater after seeing Ansem). Back in the present, Sora and Riku's present bodies are probably kept in the wardrobe room, likely the reason why they aren't present in any scene in the tower's study. As for the Organization's plan, it doesn't matter how old Sora's body is, they still want Sora himself, and through their method Sora would be stuck in slumber no matter which body his heart was in. It wasn't even his body they were exactly after, they wanted to corrupt his heart with Xehanort's, that way no matter what kind of body Sora has he would be a Seeker. So it's likely that after escaping Xehanort's clutches they returned Sora and Riku's younger bodies back to their proper time with no memory of what happened, with past-Sora's heart and consciousness being restored to normal (so he may wake up) as present-Sora's are transferred back to his present body, which won't wake up because of the state his heart is in.

 

As for Riku's second dive into Sora's dream, that's a bit harder to explain with this theory. He enters while in his present body but he takes on the appearance of his younger self. My explanation that I'll offer is that Yen Sid's magic allowed Riku to gain that as a pseudo form for his dive, or because Riku can now access the dream worlds whenever he wants he can likely have control over his own appearance (which is also why Sora keeps his older appearance at the end of the game when he visits Traverse Town), so he probably chose that form because he still needed access to his Dream Eater powers to awaken Sora. It's likely some sort of metaphor for lucid dreaming, where one has complete control over themselves in their dream. One can even decide how they appear or see themselves, whereas non-lucid (or typical) dreamers have no conscious control or attention over their appearance and can sometimes shift between their perceived appearances. In the beginning and bulk of their adventure they were in their young bodies and they had begun with their skills anew, and had no experience with the Realm of Sleep or their dream abilities, so really they didn't have mastery over things such as their ability to come and go between the real world and dream world or their actual appearance. This is evident when Sora is stuck in the nightmare Organization XIII forced him into, where he is constantly shifting from his younger self, his present self, his dream appearance, his childhood self, and even Ventus. But at the end of the game he is not only able to travel between the real world and the Realm of Sleep, but he is also able to maintain his present appearance as well, whereas Riku seemed to consciously change his appearance to his Dream Eater self for the purpose I mentioned before.

 

With all these bases covered, I believe that the method used in the game for Sora and Riku is the same method of time travel that everyone in 3D explains as "the laws of time travel", and that Nomura meant as much but as usual left things a bit vague with how Yen Sid managed things. After all, it would technically be through Yen Sid's magic that Sora and Riku where able to possess their younger selves, and Yen Sid also likely had the means to return their consciousnesses to their proper bodies and guide their past bodies back to whence they came, thus why they couldn't regain their normal forms until they returned to his tower. I feel that the exact nature of this whole game, until it is explained in the clearest most spelled-out way possible with no way to mistake how it's stated, will have to be interpreted in many ways by fans in order to make sense of the whole extra layer of confusion and complication it brings to the delicious multiflavored cake that is the Kingdom Hearts series. That's not to say that your theory doesn't have precedent, it's entirely possible that through the magic door explanation, Yen Sid just has the power to transform Sora and Riku to their younger selves and send them back into the past at a point in time without any sacrifice before the islands where destroyed without running into anyone who might notice two sets of Sora and Riku running around (okay, that had a little more sass than I meant to put in there). My only problem with that theory is that when you get down to it, it really wouldn't be that different if he had done things the "established" way and just sent their consciousnesses back in time and then returned their past bodies back later, so why not do it that way? Really though, I'm just hoping to get a clear and unmistakable explanation as to how the whole thing works. Otherwise, I just have to take it like the Roxas fainting because his two real selves are NOT in the same place at the same time ever and pray that it actually works.

 

 

 Illlllllll do....Dude what Nomura says is canon and what it is - He's the one who wrote this and you saying otherwise takes away from your argument right then and there.You can write a whole essay and that won't change that.Read and watch the videos in Ultima Rob's post after mine some of this is also addressed in there.Also you tend to interpret lots of stuff the way you want regardless of what's been said.You can do that as you wish but don't tell me that you are free to interpret things as you wish then tell me why you think things should be the way you want them as you interpreted bc YOU think it makes more sense to you. You wrote several paragraphs on what you think happened in your head. Even the fact that you need a version of yourself there doesn't mean it's bc you need to take over that times body of yours. That's why Ansem could transfer the TT power to YX without him needing to shed his own body to use it. From that point on he could travel to whatever time without shedding his body and his other selves would be also present running around at the same time ..Comparing that to the Roxas situation is also without merit since its not the same situation as well

 

You do realize that they do indeed need his body not his heart per se,, the idea that they need to drown his heart in darkness is so they can lose his heart in a two fold nightmare where it can never awaken .That way they could use his BODY.If his body had no heart at all it would be even more ideal bc of this but since it does they need to do this for that reason. But they do indeed need his body.That's why Lea physically carried/rescued his body out of TWTNW

 

Lets no forget that in TWNTW they shifted from reality and sleep. There were times were they were literally back in reality like when Sora first arrived there.He was suppose to be done and going home but was led there.They didn't change back bc it was Yen Sids magic that changed them - not their past bodies. Matter of fact based off your logic there would be no reason to even change them period so why bother doing that based off your logic? Nomura doesn't say or even infer it's to keep their consciousness 'intact'. He straight up talks about their appearances.

 

How about with Xehanorts method you forget everything once you return? We know that's not the case with Sora and Riku and that would also ruin the point about why they went in the past to begin with lol

 

You can think what you want but there are holes to what you are saying regardless about it being the same method Xehanort used.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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 Illlllllll do....Dude what Nomura says is canon and what it is - He's the one who wrote this and you saying otherwise takes away from your argument right then and there.You can write a whole essay and that won't change that.Read and watch the videos in Ultima Rob's post after mine some of this is also addressed in there.Also you tend to interpret lots of stuff the way you want regardless of what's been said.You can do that as you wish but don't tell me that you are free to interpret things as you wish then tell me why you think things should be the way you want them as you interpreted bc YOU think it makes more sense to you. You wrote several paragraphs on what you think happened in your head. Even the fact that you need a version of yourself there doesn't mean it's bc you need to take over that times body of yours. That's why Ansem could transfer the TT power to YX without him needing to shed his own body to use it. From that point on he could travel to whatever time without shedding his body and his other selves would be also present running around at the same time ..Comparing that to the Roxas situation is also without merit since its not the same situation as well

 

You do realize that they do indeed need his body not his heart per se,, the idea that they need to drown his heart in darkness is so they can lose his heart in a two fold nightmare where it can never awaken .That way they could use his BODY.If his body had no heart at all it would be even more ideal bc of this but since it does they need to do this for that reason. But they do indeed need his body.That's why Lea physically carried/rescued his body out of TWTNW

 

Lets no forget that in TWNTW they shifted from reality and sleep. There were times were they were literally back in reality like when Sora first arrived there.He was suppose to be done and going home but was led there.They didn't change back bc it was Yen Sids magic that changed them - not their past bodies. Matter of fact based off your logic there would be no reason to even change them period so why bother doing that based off your logic? Nomura doesn't say or even infer it's to keep their consciousness 'intact'. He straight up talks about their appearances.

 

How about with Xehanorts method you forget everything once you return? We know that's not the case with Sora and Riku and that would also ruin the point about why they went in the past to begin with lol

 

You can think what you want but there are holes to what you are saying regardless about it being the same method Xehanort used.

It's just, when he creates this whole thing about "Oh yeah, there are all these BIG RULES about time travel that you MUST follow and that those facts can never be changed and that you have to follow them to the letter blah blah blah" and then when asked about Sora and Riku suddenly looking younger he says "Oh it's just cause of Yen Sid's magic" it really feels like a jump back in creative process. I'd be able to swallow that better if he explained it more, because creative wise I don't understand the point of making a really strict set of time travel laws and then making a big deal over them only to have incredibly easy alternatives like "poof! Now you're in the past! also you're younger now" and just have them be accepted as common place. If that is the case, then did anybody really follow those big scary laws of time travel to begin with? Because at this point the whole thing is giving me a headache and I'm trying my best to make sense of it, so I'm sorry if that bothers you.

 

And as I said, I understand Nomura is the creator, and everything he says about the series is the truth. However, the way he says things and translates those ideas into words can sometimes be inconsistent with what is actually presented. It wouldn't be a problem if the games ever went back to explain those inconsistencies but they don't do that because they have to focus on adding to the rest of the stories, so we're left with plot holes that could have been avoided if they were explained just a tiny bit better. That's why I brought up the Roxas example, because the way he explained what was happening and the way that the game presented it did not match up and it led me to be very confused as to how I was supposed to interpret the scene. That's the problem I'm facing here. I'd love to just take Nomura's word for it and leave it at that, but the fact that if it weren't for that explanation we could just assume that Sora and Riku did things "traditionally" and that it easily folds back on itself just really makes me question just HOW I'm supposed to interpret the series these days. Should I try my best to figure out what Nomura's blueprints are and THEN try to interpret the games based off of that, or should I try to interpret things my own way first and THEN figure out what Nomura had to say and try to make sense of it all? Because either way, it's very confusing to me, it's not being explained or backed up well enough, and I am probably so spoiled with exposition for other things that I probably need something more than subtle statements about "because magic" to explain a purposefully complex time travel logic loophole.

 

Also, if you say that there are holes to my theory, than please point them out to me. I've tried my best to cover my bases and if you feel that there are still some empty areas I'd like to know what they are. Call this headcanon all you like, it's still how I can best interpret it until either Nomura spells things out in a way that I can better follow or if you or somebody else can find a way to convince me how this works without just shrugging off how big of a deal time travel laws are. And as I mentioned there's flaws to what you stated to,even if there aren't as many as my theory, those being the fact that Sora and Riku occupy the same space and time as their younger selves without ever coming across them (they were working on that raft A LOT...well, Riku was) and Xigbar basically explains that they could only go back to that point in time because past versions of them existed there, and considering how he's the world's best spy and eavesdropper and the fact that they followed Sora EVERYWHERE, I'm willing to buy his explanation (it's coming from one of Nomura's favorites might I add), which for some reason is in heavy conflict with Nomura's statement due to a lack of info.

 

I'm really sorry if I'm being stubborn here, sometimes I just really REALLY need to have something spelled out for me word for word with no mistake of interpretation if the thing in question is very confusing for me or if I notice some flaws in it. If you or anyone has the patience to spell it out for me (which I understand is asking a lot of anybody here), I would really appreciate it, cause as I said it's giving me a headache and I hate not seeing something that it seems that other people see easily.

Edited by Hero of Light XIV

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It's just, when he creates this whole thing about "Oh yeah, there are all these BIG RULES about time travel that you MUST follow and that those facts can never be changed and that you have to follow them to the letter blah blah blah" and then when asked about Sora and Riku suddenly looking younger he says "Oh it's just cause of Yen Sid's magic" it really feels like a jump back in creative process. I'd be able to swallow that better if he explained it more, because creative wise I don't understand the point of making a really strict set of time travel laws and then making a big deal over them only to have incredibly easy alternatives like "poof! Now you're in the past! also you're younger now" and just have them be accepted as common place. If that is the case, then did anybody really follow those big scary laws of time travel to begin with? Because at this point the whole thing is giving me a headache and I'm trying my best to make sense of it, so I'm sorry if that bothers you.

 

And as I said, I understand Nomura is the creator, and everything he says about the series is the truth. However, the way he says things and translates those ideas into words can sometimes be inconsistent with what is actually presented. It wouldn't be a problem if the games ever went back to explain those inconsistencies but they don't do that because they have to focus on adding to the rest of the stories, so we're left with plot holes that could have been avoided if they were explained just a tiny bit better. That's why I brought up the Roxas example, because the way he explained what was happening and the way that the game presented it did not match up and it led me to be very confused as to how I was supposed to interpret the scene. That's the problem I'm facing here. I'd love to just take Nomura's word for it and leave it at that, but the fact that if it weren't for that explanation we could just assume that Sora and Riku did things "traditionally" and that it easily folds back on itself just really makes me question just HOW I'm supposed to interpret the series these days. Should I try my best to figure out what Nomura's blueprints are and THEN try to interpret the games based off of that, or should I try to interpret things my own way first and THEN figure out what Nomura had to say and try to make sense of it all? Because either way, it's very confusing to me, it's not being explained or backed up well enough, and I am probably so spoiled with exposition for other things that I probably need something more than subtle statements about "because magic" to explain a purposefully complex time travel logic loophole.

 

Also, if you say that there are holes to my theory, than please point them out to me. I've tried my best to cover my bases and if you feel that there are still some empty areas I'd like to know what they are. Call this headcanon all you like, it's still how I can best interpret it until either Nomura spells things out in a way that I can better follow or if you or somebody else can find a way to convince me how this works without just shrugging off how big of a deal time travel laws are. And as I mentioned there's flaws to what you stated to,even if there aren't as many as my theory, those being the fact that Sora and Riku occupy the same space and time as their younger selves without ever coming across them (they were working on that raft A LOT...well, Riku was) and Xigbar basically explains that they could only go back to that point in time because past versions of them existed there, and considering how he's the world's best spy and eavesdropper and the fact that they followed Sora EVERYWHERE, I'm willing to buy his explanation (it's coming from one of Nomura's favorites might I add), which for some reason is in heavy conflict with Nomura's statement due to a lack of info.

 

I'm really sorry if I'm being stubborn here, sometimes I just really REALLY need to have something spelled out for me word for word with no mistake of interpretation if the thing in question is very confusing for me or if I notice some flaws in it. If you or anyone has the patience to spell it out for me (which I understand is asking a lot of anybody here), I would really appreciate it, cause as I said it's giving me a headache and I hate not seeing something that it seems that other people see easily.

 Reread my post bc I pointed out the flaws in your theory. Several of them.I even explained the Xigbar statement using YX as an example. Read my post. YX still needed a version of himself in every destination and he HAD a body.Also Sora and Riku could remember and knew what happened to them when they got back- something not possible with Xehanorts version of TT.Also it would ruin the point of them relearning the ways of the keyblade and learning skills like how to access the RoS like Sora did in the end if they forgot everything when they got back.I listed other things but you can go back and read my original post. As for what you are suppose to use to deduce what's going on - you use all info gathered  whether it's game content or interviews  or reports. But when the creator specifies an answer to a certain question you go with that as the final answer unless he states otherwise.It's canon period .Even if he eventually retcons something its canon until he retcons it. He states this stuff in two separate interviews so he must want it known. Most of the time things stated in interviews are things left unclear or maybe  was presented in a confusing way and is being cleared up. You can use your own head canon all you want as long as you don't present it as fact to others. I try to answer questions based off fact and what's presented. Which is why interviews are helpful. The info is given to us for a reason and should not be tossed aside bc it interferes with your theory.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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It's just, when he creates this whole thing about "Oh yeah, there are all these BIG RULES about time travel that you MUST follow and that those facts can never be changed and that you have to follow them to the letter blah blah blah" and then when asked about Sora and Riku suddenly looking younger he says "Oh it's just cause of Yen Sid's magic" it really feels like a jump back in creative process. I'd be able to swallow that better if he explained it more, because creative wise I don't understand the point of making a really strict set of time travel laws and then making a big deal over them only to have incredibly easy alternatives like "poof! Now you're in the past! also you're younger now" and just have them be accepted as common place. If that is the case, then did anybody really follow those big scary laws of time travel to begin with? Because at this point the whole thing is giving me a headache and I'm trying my best to make sense of it, so I'm sorry if that bothers you.

 

And as I said, I understand Nomura is the creator, and everything he says about the series is the truth. However, the way he says things and translates those ideas into words can sometimes be inconsistent with what is actually presented. It wouldn't be a problem if the games ever went back to explain those inconsistencies but they don't do that because they have to focus on adding to the rest of the stories, so we're left with plot holes that could have been avoided if they were explained just a tiny bit better. That's why I brought up the Roxas example, because the way he explained what was happening and the way that the game presented it did not match up and it led me to be very confused as to how I was supposed to interpret the scene. That's the problem I'm facing here. I'd love to just take Nomura's word for it and leave it at that, but the fact that if it weren't for that explanation we could just assume that Sora and Riku did things "traditionally" and that it easily folds back on itself just really makes me question just HOW I'm supposed to interpret the series these days. Should I try my best to figure out what Nomura's blueprints are and THEN try to interpret the games based off of that, or should I try to interpret things my own way first and THEN figure out what Nomura had to say and try to make sense of it all? Because either way, it's very confusing to me, it's not being explained or backed up well enough, and I am probably so spoiled with exposition for other things that I probably need something more than subtle statements about "because magic" to explain a purposefully complex time travel logic loophole.

 

Also, if you say that there are holes to my theory, than please point them out to me. I've tried my best to cover my bases and if you feel that there are still some empty areas I'd like to know what they are. Call this headcanon all you like, it's still how I can best interpret it until either Nomura spells things out in a way that I can better follow or if you or somebody else can find a way to convince me how this works without just shrugging off how big of a deal time travel laws are. And as I mentioned there's flaws to what you stated to,even if there aren't as many as my theory, those being the fact that Sora and Riku occupy the same space and time as their younger selves without ever coming across them (they were working on that raft A LOT...well, Riku was) and Xigbar basically explains that they could only go back to that point in time because past versions of them existed there, and considering how he's the world's best spy and eavesdropper and the fact that they followed Sora EVERYWHERE, I'm willing to buy his explanation (it's coming from one of Nomura's favorites might I add), which for some reason is in heavy conflict with Nomura's statement due to a lack of info.

 

I'm really sorry if I'm being stubborn here, sometimes I just really REALLY need to have something spelled out for me word for word with no mistake of interpretation if the thing in question is very confusing for me or if I notice some flaws in it. If you or anyone has the patience to spell it out for me (which I understand is asking a lot of anybody here), I would really appreciate it, cause as I said it's giving me a headache and I hate not seeing something that it seems that other people see easily.

Alright, I know Axel already said this reason, but this is the biggest point that I see that you interpret the rules wrong and that is the fact that when the rules say "You must leave your physical body in order to travel to the past" this is more saying that you become a heartless and then you are able to travel back in time and not that you take your mind and heart out and put it into your past self, you just travel as that heartless. Per when Ansem SOD travels back to Young Xehanort, if what you were saying was true then Ansem would then take control of YX's body, but he doesn't he just travels as a heartless or a heart and then transfers his powers to YX which allows YX to travel with the loophole of not having to leave his body.

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 Reread my post bc I pointed out the flaws in your theory. Several of them.I even explained the Xigbar statement using YX as an example. Read my post. YX still needed a version of himself in every destination and he HAD a body.Also Sora and Riku could remember and knew what happened to them when they got back- something not possible with Xehanorts version of TT.Also it would ruin the point of them relearning the ways of the keyblade and learning skills like how to access the RoS like Sora did in the end if they forgot everything when they got back.I listed other things but you can go back and read my original post. As for what you are suppose to use to deduce what's going on - you use all info gathered  whether it's game content or interviews  or reports. But when the creator specifies an answer to a certain question you go with that as the final answer unless he states otherwise.It's canon period .Even if he eventually retcons something its canon until he retcons it. He states this stuff in two separate interviews so he must want it known. Most of the time things stated in interviews are things left unclear or maybe  was presented in a confusing way and is being cleared up. You can use your own head canon all you want as long as you don't present it as fact to others. I try to answer questions based off fact and what's presented. Which is why interviews are helpful. The info is given to us for a reason and should not be tossed aside bc it interferes with your theory.

Read my theory, the way I explained it their past bodies would have forgotten their skills and memories, not their present bodies. But that doesn't matter I guess. What Nomura said might be canon, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add up to me, THAT'S what I've been trying to get across. Sure, he explains HOW Sora and Riku are in their younger appearances, but he never explains WHY? Why is it so necessary for them to adopt those forms when it's shown later that their present appearances are just fine. Riku needing access to his Dream Eater powers again to save Sora I can understand, but he only looks like that because for some whatever reason Yen Sid thought looking 14 and 15 again was necessary. But the fact that Sora stays in his KH2 appearance at the end of the game shows that it wasn't necessary at all, so what was the whole point? I understand that behind the scenes it's because the KH team is in love with Sora's original appearance, I get that, but nowhere am I ever given an in-game explanation as to why Sora and Riku have to look like that unless they are possessing their past bodies, which by this point I'm guessing we're not supposed to think that anymore. So why do they look that way?

 

And I don't criticize and analyze just for the sake of making a theory so I can feel right, the only reason I made the theory is because I can't make any sense out of what's given to me and I'm trying to interpret as best I can, and I feel like I need to be given more than just what was told to me. I just want to make sense of things. And yes, I'm paying attention.

 

So what you're saying here is that your previous/future selves are only used as tethers or anchors to that point in time. It still seems to suggest that if you tried to follow things by the book, after shedding your body you would need a body in order to progress forward in time so you'd probably have to possess that version of yourself , unless you turn into a robed figure like Ansem, then I guess in that case you'd just have to be content with it. With that in mind, it appears that nobody in the game strictly follows those rules, and are just using some kind of variant of the rules that can be bent as opposed to the rules that can't be changed (like changing destiny or going further back in time than you did previously). Variants like that could then explain how other forms could be seen like Merlin's magical door to Timeless River and ONLY Timeless River, which could then leave room open for Yen Sid to be able to use his higher magic to transport Sora and Riku's whole bodies across time and space (regardless of appearance which I still need clarification on). And again, the Roxas example was only to further demonstrate how confusing this all gets for me, even though it's unrelated in terms of events.

 

Ok, so the body thing does make sense when you put it that way, it just felt confusing because they had to do a lot to his heart in order to make it happen. But since their choice before Sora was Roxas, then it does make sense that they wanted a body without a heart to have space for Xehanort's to assert dominance without any resistance (as he learned from possessing Terra). Since they couldn't do that with Roxas and Riku had already steeled his heart from being corrupted by Darkness anymore, then it makes sense that they had to trap Sora's unpredictable heart in darkness so that Xehanort would be able to control him without any trouble. So with all that in mind, it turns out they were after his body, which would support the idea that the body Sora has is his current body and not the one from the past (but once again, I'm lost as to exactly WHY it has to appear young in order for anything to work, it doesn't feel necessary unless he had to be in his actual past body, which doesn't seem to be the case). So meanwhile real past Sora is running around just fine while he fights off past Ansem's Heartless minons on his first adventure with no more danger than he was facing at the time, so it's only present Sora who is in danger.

 

I understand the whole reality thing. However, as I've already stated multiple times, the one thing that I don't understand is WHY, WHHHYYYY, did Yen Sid feel that it was necessary to make Sora and Riku look younger when we see that it didn't really affect anything, Sora could enter the RoS just fine without having to look younger, so why bother making them look younger at all. As I said before, sending them to a time where they would see exact duplicates of themselves would probably cause a lot of unnecessary chaos, confusion, and blah blah time paradox babble, so why not keep them in their current appearances so at least there's a chance no one would recognize them at a first glance? Again, I get that Square and Disney likes that look, but story wise I'm given no explanation as to why they have to look like that. It's just a cool design without a strong reason to back it up (kind of like, say, the Power Rangers switching from something infinitely powerful like the Zeo powers to something different like the Turbo powers out of nowhere for no expressed reason other than "well it's what we do every season, so why not?" It just kind of feels pointless if you don't give a good reason for it.).

 

Anyway, yeah the other time travel rules about characters having to return to the past and forget their memories seems to be ignored when it comes to Sora and Riku...but what about those from the future and present...like Sora and Riku? That's never directly addressed. For all we know, someone from the future could follow the rules and still keep all their memories. The memory forgetting rule only seemed to apply to Young Xehanort and his splintered selves that were brought there through his loophole variation of time traveling. So why would the same have to apply to Sora and Riku, regardless of whether they're in their past bodies or present bodies, when the point they are returning to wouldn't affect the timeline in any way whatsoever? The problem with this is the rules are too loosely stated, they don't explain if the rules apply to all or if they're an "if, then" kind of thing.

 

I can pay attention, and I can understand as far as you have told me, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the game itself doesn't explain certain nuances that well and that Nomura's explanation only serves to confuse me even more right now. I'd like to understand this better if you can help me, but right now I think I've made it clear that I don't understand why Sora and Riku have to appear the way they do and exactly what kinds of rules apply to everyone and some don't.

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Read my theory, the way I explained it their past bodies would have forgotten their skills and memories, not their present bodies. But that doesn't matter I guess. What Nomura said might be canon, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add up to me, THAT'S what I've been trying to get across. Sure, he explains HOW Sora and Riku are in their younger appearances, but he never explains WHY? Why is it so necessary for them to adopt those forms when it's shown later that their present appearances are just fine. Riku needing access to his Dream Eater powers again to save Sora I can understand, but he only looks like that because for some whatever reason Yen Sid thought looking 14 and 15 again was necessary. But the fact that Sora stays in his KH2 appearance at the end of the game shows that it wasn't necessary at all, so what was the whole point? I understand that behind the scenes it's because the KH team is in love with Sora's original appearance, I get that, but nowhere am I ever given an in-game explanation as to why Sora and Riku have to look like that unless they are possessing their past bodies, which by this point I'm guessing we're not supposed to think that anymore. So why do they look that way?

 

And I don't criticize and analyze just for the sake of making a theory so I can feel right, the only reason I made the theory is because I can't make any sense out of what's given to me and I'm trying to interpret as best I can, and I feel like I need to be given more than just what was told to me. I just want to make sense of things. And yes, I'm paying attention.

 

So what you're saying here is that your previous/future selves are only used as tethers or anchors to that point in time. It still seems to suggest that if you tried to follow things by the book, after shedding your body you would need a body in order to progress forward in time so you'd probably have to possess that version of yourself , unless you turn into a robed figure like Ansem, then I guess in that case you'd just have to be content with it. With that in mind, it appears that nobody in the game strictly follows those rules, and are just using some kind of variant of the rules that can be bent as opposed to the rules that can't be changed (like changing destiny or going further back in time than you did previously). Variants like that could then explain how other forms could be seen like Merlin's magical door to Timeless River and ONLY Timeless River, which could then leave room open for Yen Sid to be able to use his higher magic to transport Sora and Riku's whole bodies across time and space (regardless of appearance which I still need clarification on). And again, the Roxas example was only to further demonstrate how confusing this all gets for me, even though it's unrelated in terms of events.

 

Ok, so the body thing does make sense when you put it that way, it just felt confusing because they had to do a lot to his heart in order to make it happen. But since their choice before Sora was Roxas, then it does make sense that they wanted a body without a heart to have space for Xehanort's to assert dominance without any resistance (as he learned from possessing Terra). Since they couldn't do that with Roxas and Riku had already steeled his heart from being corrupted by Darkness anymore, then it makes sense that they had to trap Sora's unpredictable heart in darkness so that Xehanort would be able to control him without any trouble. So with all that in mind, it turns out they were after his body, which would support the idea that the body Sora has is his current body and not the one from the past (but once again, I'm lost as to exactly WHY it has to appear young in order for anything to work, it doesn't feel necessary unless he had to be in his actual past body, which doesn't seem to be the case). So meanwhile real past Sora is running around just fine while he fights off past Ansem's Heartless minons on his first adventure with no more danger than he was facing at the time, so it's only present Sora who is in danger.

 

I understand the whole reality thing. However, as I've already stated multiple times, the one thing that I don't understand is WHY, WHHHYYYY, did Yen Sid feel that it was necessary to make Sora and Riku look younger when we see that it didn't really affect anything, Sora could enter the RoS just fine without having to look younger, so why bother making them look younger at all. As I said before, sending them to a time where they would see exact duplicates of themselves would probably cause a lot of unnecessary chaos, confusion, and blah blah time paradox babble, so why not keep them in their current appearances so at least there's a chance no one would recognize them at a first glance? Again, I get that Square and Disney likes that look, but story wise I'm given no explanation as to why they have to look like that. It's just a cool design without a strong reason to back it up (kind of like, say, the Power Rangers switching from something infinitely powerful like the Zeo powers to something different like the Turbo powers out of nowhere for no expressed reason other than "well it's what we do every season, so why not?" It just kind of feels pointless if you don't give a good reason for it.).

 

Anyway, yeah the other time travel rules about characters having to return to the past and forget their memories seems to be ignored when it comes to Sora and Riku...but what about those from the future and present...like Sora and Riku? That's never directly addressed. For all we know, someone from the future could follow the rules and still keep all their memories. The memory forgetting rule only seemed to apply to Young Xehanort and his splintered selves that were brought there through his loophole variation of time traveling. So why would the same have to apply to Sora and Riku, regardless of whether they're in their past bodies or present bodies, when the point they are returning to wouldn't affect the timeline in any way whatsoever? The problem with this is the rules are too loosely stated, they don't explain if the rules apply to all or if they're an "if, then" kind of thing.

 

I can pay attention, and I can understand as far as you have told me, but that doesn't excuse the fact that the game itself doesn't explain certain nuances that well and that Nomura's explanation only serves to confuse me even more right now. I'd like to understand this better if you can help me, but right now I think I've made it clear that I don't understand why Sora and Riku have to appear the way they do and exactly what kinds of rules apply to everyone and some don't.

 

 

You just basically are wondering why Nomura does what he does. Who knows? This is how hes always been hence the phrase "nomura logic". To be fair it IS explained that the reason why they are given different bodies was bc he wanted them to relearn the ways of the keyblade from scratch since they had basically winged it before.They were never trained like the others..They needed to learn the proper way.I have already pointed this out previously. And their past bodies forgetting but not their current one makes no sense considering that in your theory the heart and consciousness travels back to the old body - but memories and consciousness are held within the heart so it would also forget in the present body. It makes no sense for Yen Sid to do that considering the reason why he sent them back in the first place. The rules state that when you travel in time when you return you lose your memories from where you traveled. It doesn't say that it only applies from the past.So bc it doesn't say that you can just figure it applies to wherever you travel.

 

Yes when traveling you need a version present at the destination but even with Ansem he never even inhabited his young self. He merely transferred the power so YX wouldn't need to in order to gain that power. In DDD YX was a tether that held all the other versions in place once he gathered or summoned them. This was also confirmed in interviews,.

 

Don't feel bad about not getting some things or not understanding some things bc some of these things weren't greatly expounded on in game but were in interviews and some people miss stuff.Also some concepts involving TT are confusing to people.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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You just basically are wondering why Nomura does what he does. Who knows? This is how hes always been hence the phrase "nomura logic". To be fair it IS explained that the reason why they are given different bodies was bc he wanted them to relearn the ways of the keyblade from scratch since they had basically winged it before.They were never trained like the others..They needed to learn the proper way.I have already pointed this out previously. And their past bodies forgetting but not their current one makes no sense considering that in your theory the heart and consciousness travels back to the old body - but memories and consciousness are held within the heart so it would also forget in the present body. It makes no sense for Yen Sid to do that considering the reason why he sent them back in the first place. The rules state that when you travel in time when you return you lose your memories from where you traveled. It doesn't say that it only applies from the past.So bc it doesn't say that you can just figure it applies to wherever you travel.

 

Yes when traveling you need a version present at the destination but even with Ansem he never even inhabited his young self. He merely transferred the power so YX wouldn't need to in order to gain that power. In DDD YX was a tether that held all the other versions in place once he gathered or summoned them. This was also confirmed in interviews,.

 

Don't feel bad about not getting some things or not understanding some things bc some of these things weren't greatly expounded on in game but were in interviews and some people miss stuff.Also some concepts involving TT are confusing to people.

I think my real issue is that I really feel Nomura should have gone more in depth with explaining exactly why and how they were young again and how they are exactly sent back to the past. TT doesn't confuse me that much, it's the unexplained bits that confuse me. Everything with TT has to be so exact and specific that you literally can't leave anything out, otherwise it becomes a hailstorm of confusion, so while Nomura's vague logic works with other aspects of the series, in terms of TT he's going to have to be a little more generous with how much info he shares.

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I think my real issue is that I really feel Nomura should have gone more in depth with explaining exactly why and how they were young again and how they are exactly sent back to the past. TT doesn't confuse me that much, it's the unexplained bits that confuse me. Everything with TT has to be so exact and specific that you literally can't leave anything out, otherwise it becomes a hailstorm of confusion, so while Nomura's vague logic works with other aspects of the series, in terms of TT he's going to have to be a little more generous with how much info he shares.

 

I guess to Nomura giving interviews that clarify some of these concepts is good enough. I do agree though that it should also be presented in game more for those who might not have the luxury of reading the interviews..Also part of the issue lies in sometimes he deliberately leaves things vague or open so he can retcon or expound as he goes with the storyline.

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I guess to Nomura giving interviews that clarify some of these concepts is good enough. I do agree though that it should also be presented in game more for those who might not have the luxury of reading the interviews..Also part of the issue lies in sometimes he deliberately leaves things vague or open so he can retcon or expound as he goes with the storyline.

Yup. xP

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