Aqua_Wren

Fair fair. I think we're probably going to disagree on the details forever, for one, KHUX itself has the new dandelion leaders -acknowledge- that it contains chi in it. They aren't locked into the simulation like the other dandelions, they are aware it is a simulation, and that the Keyblade War has already happened. They aren't some... clueless, test subjects and when they are alone, it would make more sense to me if they were to talk about the war having happened a very long time ago, as opposed to very recently since... there's nothing to suggest that they have any sort of overwrite of their own memories going on. And it... doesn't... contain the entirety of Chi, it only contains certain events leading up to it, while completely skipping and overwriting, the stuff that actually led to a war. Exactly like the plan that the Master tells Ava to have the dandelion leaders implement. The context all works without needing it to be a modern simulation of something that happened in the past. Actually, come to think it. I also question how Ansem the Wise would have even managed to get the data to even run the simulation, he has never before been shown creating a simulation without an original of some sort. Data twilight town was created from the town he himself was in, he converted Roxas into data I think, when he put him inside. he tried to convert the fake KH2 Kingdom Hearts into data... Tron was also stolen from another persons database (the tron we see in 3D...) and was just a copy... Where on earth would he have gotten the required data to recreate all this? I just don't think him capable of recreating something that happened so long ago in such ridiculous detail. He can make small alterations sure, tweak things, but this is multiple, full scale worlds, one of which (Daybreak Town) Is massive and populated and he wouldn't really have a way to get copies of people that no longer exist and aren't around anymore. But it is fun to have discussions like this. Looking forward to 3 as well, hopefully it will actually answer some things, even if it's almost definitely going to leave some questions for the next saga, even if just in the epilogue and secret movie.

Ok, you know what. Fine. I guess I'm a sucker for getting drawn into a debate, and a liar about not responding again. Putting aside what you've said. Lets simplify a little. After a quick aside on some -facts- of the situation in KHUX, as I have actually played the entirity of it and am familiar with the translations of the parts currently still in Japanese. KHUX has no bell having been rung, because it has no Keyblade war during it. The bell cannot have been rung to start the Keyblade War in the simulation, because it just didn't happen during KHUX. Strelitzia dying before the bell, makes no sense without KHUX being a direct sequel to Chi in which certain events run again due to the dreamlike nature of the realm they are in. Furthermore, it shows further proof that Lauriam, as well as the other Dandelion leaders, have full knowledge of, and memory of the war having happened. Strelitzia, did not die in the KHUX timeline, she died in Chi in a flashback beforehand. As a union leader, if it had been during KHUX, she would have had full knowledge of the fact that the player was already a Dandelion, and already saved, and the war was not about to happen therefore going after them would be foolish and silly. If Strelitzia died during KHUX, the entire motivation for her actions that get her assassinated, make no sense. Furthermore, Lauriam would have had no reason to assume that Strelitzia may have gone into the war after the player, and died there, if the war had already taken place before her disappearance by his own knowledge. Him asking the Chirithy before or after the bell, is very explicitly, before or after the Keyblade War that occured before the events of KHUX. Putting aside the issues with your interpretation of what happened to Strelitzia as established by canon facts. I am going to present one fact. Not conjecture, not fan theory, fact. And I would like you to explain, if you can, how this fact fits in with your theory. The Master of Masters vanished before Chi even began. Any cutscenes with him involved are flashbacks to before Chi and his disappearance. Specifically, the cutscene I am referencing is a continuation of the one in Back Cover in the time of Chi when he is meeting with Ava. The Master of Masters, met with Ava, and told her to choose all five union leaders as Dandelions and make them the new leaders to carry on after the foretellers. Again, this is not fantheory, this is not conjecture. This is fact. Ava had the Dandelion Leaders set up KHUX on the masters orders. And met with them all, in the time of Chi. This is also supported by several conversations between the Dandelion Leaders, and the Chirithy as well. How does your theory, deal with that? Because unless you can disprove it. Which I do not believe you can. The entire theory regarding Ansem the Wise being the one running KHUX, completely falls apart.

Thing is, it absolutely does make sense that Ansem Seeker of Darkness would just be referring to the Heartless experiments. People blame others for things that aren't strictly their fault all the time. And in a warped sort of way it does make sense to blame him for something that was "totally all just in your name." Remember how Xemnas called Ansem the Wise the source of all heartless in KH2? And pointed out that his research is what inspired him to go farther than ever? Said that he was simply carrying on what he began? And Ansem the Wise didn't even deny it, said that his disregard had brought chaos to many worlds. People aren't always purely logical, especially when it comes to guilt. The Dandelions would be taken to another realm so that they wouldn't be around when the world was plunged into darkness? That's pretty obvious. There's a version of Maleficent in the distant past though, the data version of her that existed in that world. Strelitzia CANNOT have died in the simulation is the problem here. She died before the Keyblade War began, before Chi was over. Remember, Elrena's Chirithy (And the Chirithy are all fully aware of the war having happened) mentions that the last time they saw Strelitzia (or her Chirithy) was "before the bell." which means before the war, the bell is what kicked off the war to begin with. Saying she could be real and died in the simulation fails to understand that she was real during the time of Chi. Just like Ephemer and Skuld. The Union Leaders have also been shown to be capable of directly accessing and manipulating the data of the KHUX simulations, taking the data of various players and turning it into enemies for you to fight in PvP. There's no need for Ansem to be around when they're already the ones controlling it. Especially given that it's explicitly the Book of Prophecies that's projecting the worlds for the players in Chi (and later the dandelions in KHUX) to traipse around in. The timeline also doesn't really make sense to me, Birth By Sleep was a few years after Ventus was brought to the Land of Departure, which was just after his heart was fractured. Ansem the wise MOST CERTAINLY did not know enough about the keyblade and the heart to be messing around with stuff then, Apprentice Xehanorts arrival is what inspired him to start studying Heartless, Darkness, and the Heart. It's true that he had some experience with data beforehand in the form of Trons world, but studying the Keyblade War -is- to study the Heart and the darkness within it. Frankly, I think you're just cherry picking the evidence at this point while ignoring anything and everything that doesn't fit and will be proven wrong either when KH3 drops or when KHUX gets farther in the story, so I'm just gonna leave this conversation. We'll see who's right soon enough. If either of us are, lol. From past experiences given Nomura's love of pulling plot points from thin air, there's a better than even chance it's actually something entirely unforeseen and nothing to do with anything already in the games.

I think a more likely culprit for what Ansem's research was, would be the research into darkness and the Heartless. Ansem Seeker of Darkness mentioned "children sacrificed IN THE NAME of your research." Keep in mind that his apprentices continued his research even after betraying and banishing him. He wouldn't actually have to be directly involved in the children being sacrificed even, it could have been that his was only the original ideas, the seed that led to such things happening. It would still be in the name of his research even if he is not personally responsible if they were carrying on something he started and theorized about. Who knows how many people they sacrificed and experimented on while studying the Heartless and creating the emblem heartless... children could have easily been among that number, and in large quantity. I am certain that KHUX definitely happened for real in some form because... The player was in both Chi and KHUX and certainly doesn't seem like a data recreation to me. They're even having memories of the war crop up in their nightmares, and of fighting Aced, things that Ansem wouldn't need and wouldn't make any sense if they were just an original creation and NPC created as a blank slate. The union leaders met in the Keyblade Graveyard in the real world just after the war -as they were ordered to explicitly by Ava- (that's important, regardless of a simulation going on, we have 5 people who were ordered in the time of Chi to meet after the war, in the place where the war took place.) when the Keyblade Graveyard shouldn't even be there if it's just a modern day recreation. Ephemer was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having met with Ava during Chi, who was told to help set up KHUX right after the war to deal with the Dandelions remembering the Keyblade War. Strelitzia was a real person who we have onscreen evidence of having tried to save the player before the war occured. (And considering she's Lauriams sister... what reason would Ansem the Wise have to brainwash him into thinking someone from the past was his sister when he didn't actually have one?) And she was also assinated and replaced during the time of Chi, before the war took place, making one of the other replacement union leaders also definitively from the past. The Dandelions were already departing to the unchained realm -during- Chi, there would be no reason for such a large time gap and if the ones in your proposed Ansem simulation existed and were just copies... then that wouldn't explain where the real Dandelions went unless Ansem somehow found out about them and... again... created a simulation of a simulation. We already have a good, solid reason for the simulation to exist just after the war. To erase the Dandelions memories of the war so that they can live on and have a fresh start without being weighed down by such a horrible tragedy in the past. With the union leaders chosen from the Dandelions to lead in the foretellers place. There's no -reason- to suddenly say "no the real reason was that Ansem the Wise was studying the Keyblade War and created a simulation of... the aftermath of it." I understand that your theory has a certain elegance to it, that you might -want- it to be true, but it's just not credible to me compared to the evidence before us that suggests that KHUX is exactly as it seems. The story of what happened to the Dandelions just after they fled the war.

Ok, so, the issue with all this is that in order for KHUX to be a present day simulation. It has to be a present day simulation of the simulated worlds that appeared in the actual past. Regardless of your theory, KHUX -definitely- happened at some point, essentially exactly how it is presented, in the past immediately after the Keyblade War. Your theory only really works at all if you're literally arguing that Ansem created a simulation of a simulation of the real war. KHUX is -explicitly- not a remake of Chi, it is a sequel. Chi happens, and then KHUX happens directly and immediately after it according to the Master of Masters orders that Ava then passed on to the new Union Leaders, before the Keyblade War took place. At some point, most definitely in the past, Strelitzia was a real person who lived before the war and wanted to save the player character of Chi (Who is also the player character of KHUX afterwards) and then died and was replaced by one of the union leaders BEFORE the war took place. At some point, -directly- before the war, the real Dandelions fled to the unchained realm, and had the replacement union leaders working with the Chirithy to erase the Dandelions memories of the war ever taking place. With the Dandelions reliving the events that led up to the war, but having their memories erased regarding it actually happen. At some point, the Dandelions plucked the Player character of the original Chi into the unchained realm to join them anyway, thus starting off KHUX as they too are in that dream simulation thing. These are all canon facts that have been definitively established as to the nature of KHUX and adding yet another layer of simulation on this would just go too far even for Kingdom Hearts in my opinion.

The graveyard was not created in union cross at all, when KHUX starts, the war has already come and passed and the dandelions have fled to the unchained realm. The KHUX simulation goes over the events that lead to the war, but bypasses the war itself while the Dandelions have their memory of it occurring erased. I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what the similation with these data worlds and the unchained realm and such is actually FOR according to the Master of Masters, and the new union leaders. It wasn't to study those events, it was to essentially brainwash the dandelions (other than the new union leaders) into forgetting the war ever took place.

Ok, so the main problems I have with this theory is that... we have the Master of Masters, who is definitely from this time period ordering Ava to arrange all this. The new Union Leaders had to get their instructions from Ava, in the real world in the time of the original Chi, and the new union leaders are also shown meeting in the real world just after the Keyblade War, in the graveyard.... And they seem to have the ability to casually meet in the foretellers room, almost certainly also outside of the simulations. The graveyard almost certainly isn't in the unchained realm at all, since the whole point of the simulation is in part to -not- have events lead to the Keyblade War and thus create the graveyard in the first place. One of them is supposed to have a copy of the book of prophecies in order to arrange the creation of the data realms in the first place... It's simply far far more likely that all three of them are indeed from the time of Chi and simply somehow managed to enter some sort of stasis to get to the future, or yes, time travel. I don't think "Ansem the Wise set up the simulation of KHUX" really works given the background information in setting it from coming from the Chi timeline. You've said it isn't likely they existed back then, but the way I see it? It's far less likely they aren't from that time period.