Gogo

Saix and Axel conspiring together, that's confirmed. Saix being 'norted, also confirmed. Saix conspiring while still being 'norted (or at least without true intentions for the Org) is NOT confirmed; that's merely theory composed of two confirmed facts that may not necessarily apply to each other. Loyalty/Treachery being distinguishing traits of a successful/failed vessel is confirmed, the existence of the choice of it all isn't (who's to say that they don't want to be Xehanort? Xigbar's proud of it. Point is it's possible, therefore nothing about this is confirmed). Axel saying"you changed" isn't confirmed to have been a reference to Saix' look, either; it could have easily (and probably more likely) referenced his change in personality, but not necessarily his look.

"Betrayal" obviously lost its meaning over time, maybe even before Saix was 'norted. Hell, that may have even been Xemnas' solution; slowly giving Saix more and more reason to uphold the Org. He'd still be in conflict with his ambitions with Lea, but at least he's establishing the reason he'd need to stay with Xemnas for this long. Either way, there's a difference between something being established and when it could take effect. And loyalty and treachery aren't things that can be defined when you're being controlled; Saix had a choice, and he chose to be loyal. At this point, Xehanortification would be a choice, and not one that everyone would follow.

If he was controlled, then he wouldn't have the option of betraying Xemnas, something that other Org members did. Saix holds a certain degree of responsibility for his actions.

Well he's lamenting. It's not as if he's outright confirming that the idea was possible during the duration of Days; that much is ambiguous, just as much as when Xemnas found out about their two-facing. The two of them could have had this all worked out before KH1 would even begin, theoretically. More importantly, Saix has shown dedication to the Xehanorts/Xemnas even up until now, and that much can't be ignored. Obviously his loyalty isn't for dreams that he's already thrown away.

I'm not denying Saix' and Axel's ulterior motives, rather I'm saying that Saix must have eventually developed some sort of dedication to the the Org's purpose/s, otherwise he really would have had no reason to stick around after Axel left. It's never clarified how long they pursued that plan, but I doubt it would outlast Saix' new ambitions.

It seemed more like Saix was lamenting over how unrealistic his and Axel's ambitions have become, and yet he hasn't done anything that for sure could have been a step towards those ambitions. Rather, he's just been playing Xemnas' lapdog even after Axel abandoned the Org., after the slow diminishing of what was left of the Org., and even after the Org.'s destruction, as a SoD. He's just about as loyal to Xemnas is as Xigbar is, and even though I have my doubts on Xigbar's true intentions, that's still loyalty that you can't expect from certain members of the Org. Otherwise, why bother pointing out treachery as a potential reason for failure?

He certainly showed some degree of loyalty, since most of his actions can be traced back to being orders from Xemnas (except Vexen's death, but Axel's own report may imply he was acting on his own). As far as we know, Saix could have been on board with his plans until Xemnas gave him a reason to work for him. Not to mention, he's got second highest seat. Saix couldn't have been completely two-faced, otherwise his status as a vessel would contradict what makes a failed vessel. Son of a gun, can't argue with the canon. To be fair though, they couldn't have planned the whole "two choices for a vessel" idea from the beginning. Xion would only have been a logical choice for a vessel only after it was apparent that she could absorb Sora's memories, hence the point of "gaining Sora's power." Up until Sora's slumber in CO, her purpose would have only been to speed up the accumulation of hearts.

They still had Roxas before, and could have made him a vessel before Xion was even born. Furthermore, there's no way to even speculate that Xion was a potential vessel. Hell, any member of the original Org could have been mind-controlled. Assuming Xemnas couldn't do it, someone would have had to, otherwise why label Roxas as an option if it wasn't an option? I don't think it was a matter of "he wasn't available at the right time," because that would've been YX's reasoning.

Xemnas had Roxas within his reach for almost an entire year; if he could force Roxas into being a SoD like that, don't you think he would've done so? 1. Perhaps one of the prerequisites to developing a Xehanort heart is loyalty.3. I was not aware of Saix' activeness with the plan (didn't finish Days). Hope you don't mind, but could you quote me some? Even so, Saix showed a certain degree of loyalty that most others didn't, especially Roxas; it may have been that loyalty that made him a successful vessel.

Saix may have started with ulterior motives, but he still ended up a lapdog, and it's the results that count. When it comes to Riku, I think we're just arguing semantics here. We both agree that he wasn't completely shot down, but I think we can also agree that the fact that they moved down the list shows that they gave up on him at least somewhat, and not entirely. As for the Org., they were Nobodies developing hearts, so they were still beings of the RoN; they might have different rules of Xehanortification from beings of the RoL. For instance, loyalty. The key point is that Roxas chose to be disloyal. Xehanort/Xemnas could have forced him to be a SoD like he would have done to Sora, but he didn't because he couldn't. I can understand how it would work, but whether or not there's a better explanation is something I want to test.

When you consider the failures of the other Org. members, "self-awareness" could be another way of saying, "lack of loyalty." That was an important trait that kept certain members from being successful vessels, and Sora would certainly fit that trait. As for Riku, the Xehanorts gave up on him to a certain degree; them tempting him during DDD was more of a, "it's probably not gonna happen but worth a shot" type of deal. The problem is that Sora had noticeably more susceptibility than the average person, particularly when it comes to Anti-form; to endure side-effects that no one else goes through makes him a special case. Like I said, Roxas was probably more of a lack of loyalty. As for MX/Terra, you could argue that it worked primarily because of Terra's susceptibility. A lot of speculation on my end, I know, but I try to make the most sense out of it.

Well they only started to drop Riku as a potential vessel only after Roxas' birth (barely after, but still). If they even did consider Sora at that point, then Roxas must still have been much more than the back-up plan Sora would have been. And who's to say that Sora didn't develop/already have his own self-awareness, as well? Sora could have been a potential for different reasons than Roxas. That being said, I'm going back at some of the DDD cutscenes and I'm having trouble finding whatever wording I thought was there. However, I ran across something else, that being how susceptibility could (normally) be developed. Assuming that susceptibility was the reason MX could take over Terra, perhaps it's something that usually has to be nurtured over time. As in, the iconic "invitation to darkness" (the "reaching out your hand" scene).

From what I recall of DDD, YX labeled Sora as "Plan C," not necessarily "back-up plan." In other words, Sora's potential as a vessel would have been discovered after Roxas' failure as one (or maybe even during, like in my own scenario). If they knew he was susceptible to darkness from the get-go, his potential as a vessel wouldn't have come off as much of a shock/revelation for the Xehanorts.

That's my point. If Riku's resistance to darkness was relevant to the events before DDD (and not something he developed during DDD), it'd make more sense if Sora's susceptibility was the same. YX made it sound like it was some important discovery, so why would Sora's susceptibility be related to his stay in the RoS? That just seems like a possibility the Xehanorts would have expected, if you know what I mean. I forgot what exact color was DiZ's eye, but whether it'd have been amber or golden, I'm sure either connection could make sense.

The entire idea is based around the speculation that he was already a SoD by the time of DDD. If anything, I'd expect him to be facing the same problems that Dilan and Even faced in DDD (assuming that they're at least still potential SoD's). If it has nothing to do with outside factors, then Riku would have been just as susceptible. Edit: Gonna quote the rest soon Anti-Form (or, at least Sora's Heartless transformation), was an event that influenced the future of the series, though; most of the conflicts in Coded "originated" from that event. I'm not sure how you can argue against the detailed comparison I just gave; the resemblance is clearly intentional.

According to Young Xehanort, Sora was chosen as a potential 13th vessel because of his susceptibility to darkness. I find two particular questions that this poses. Why is Sora susceptible to darkness, and how did the Xehanorts find this out? 1. Sora's susceptibility I think it all traces back to Sora's use of the Keyblade of Peoples' Heart; it makes sense for a "keyblade that opens hearts to darkness" to actually mean "make them susceptible to darkness." Anti-Form would serve as a constant reminder to Sora of the side-effects of his Heartless transformation; this could be interpreted as, "his heart's still jacked up." 2. AtW's/DiZ's research I think AtW (well, as the persona of DiZ) is one of the 13 SoD's. Golden eye, check. Scum of the Earth personality, check. Mark of heresy, check. He even monitored Roxas for quite a while, perhaps subconsciously eyeing him as the potential 13th vessel. All the while, he was studying Sora as he slept, and this would be where the Xehanorts could find out about Sora's susceptibility. Then you get the third question: When exactly would AtW have entangled himself in the Xehanort mess? 3. Xehanort's connection to AtW Nomura hinted at there being significance to Xehanort's different appearances. When it comes to XH, he seems to draw inspiration from AtW, much like MX influences the appearance of Braig/Xigbar. -Amber eyes -Round ears -The hair, kind of. Particularly around the forehead -Personality-wise, you could say that Apprentice Xehanort inherited AtW's study habits Perhaps, in parallelism to Ven's initial connection to Sora, Terranort connected to AtW's heart as a form of life-support (since AtW described Xehanort as "being near death's door"). This connection would then evolve alongside the bond of anger/hatred between Apprentice Xehanort and AtW. Sora wanted to help Ven. AtW wanted to help Xehanort. Thus, BBS would end how it began; changing the fate of the universe with simple desire.

MX has gained Goofy's immortality powers. Damn, didn't see that coming.

Putting my bets on Vanitas, too; it's cliche enough to seem realistic.

I just got an account here too, I'm Nayru's Love.

Sora already has his own keyblade, that being the Kingdom Key.

In defense of the idea, there's only so many nostalgic Disney movies you can throw in before desperation becomes noticeable. I'm sure that Square can think of quite a few ways to pioneer the series with the already-existing Disney material, but that would also depend on Disney's approval. Although, regarding Star Wars, I'm not sure how you would create a world out of a series that's structured around a galaxy, and fit it into the RoL. You can't just throw the Death Star in and just expect the sub-plot to run smoothly. ... *Imagines Eraqus being mentored by Obi-Wan*

First impression from BBS' release: Where in god's name did "X-Blade" come from

Given that this is the end of the Xehanort saga, it's reasonable to assume that all Xehanort-related conflicts will reach a proper conclusion. Not to mention, the series has been hyping up the salvation of the tormented ones. But yeah, I'd imagine some kind of fusion. It'd be kind of interesting to see him fight himself again (although I really want a fight with Armor of the Master protecting Terra's body).

I wonder how many of those signers took into account the amount time and money that would be needed to develop virtually an entirely different game, not to mention distribution/manufacturing complications that could easily translate to more delays. But to hell with all that, sounds like a cool idea!

I thought I'd run into someone familiar eventually.