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LazyDurian

Kairi's current and future character development

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I can't help but think Kairi is doomed forever going forward. Her character has been fumbled from the beginning. She was built up to have her shining moments in KH3 but she got wasted so bad. Re:Mind did not do enough justice for her. Then MoM, her own game, did her dirty again and sidelined her in favor for Riku.

It's like Nomura and KH team just hate her. Xion, Namine, and Aqua are well-developed characters. But Kairi had nothing but failures after failures. She's been under excuses of "training" just to be sidelined. She is the most poorly written character because apparently KH teams don't care about her anymore.

My biggest fear is that Kairi's training under Aqua will be yet another let down. She will be sidelined or be harmed again in KH4. Or maybe she won't show up at ALL in future Kingdom Hearts. Out of all KH characters, she is the most victimized one by poor writing and hatred from pretty much everyone. It's such a shame how Kairi has fallen down from her glory in KH1.

As a long time Kairi fan, I think I should just give up. I don't see her ever being redeemed. It breaks my heart and I love Kairi to death. But KH clearly does not care about her anymore. I'm so saddened to see the current state of Kairi. I want to be hopeful, but at this point, I lost all hope.

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Posted (edited)

Meh. Even in KH1 Kairi wasn't much to write home about. She's the only kid on Destiny Islands who doesn't engage in any form of sparring. Some of her dialogue during the prologue makes her the opposite of endearing. After the Night of Fate she spends the bulk of the game on the bench, displaced heart from body unable to say or do much of anything.

The plot wants us to consider her to be on the same level as fairy tale icons like Snow White and Cinderella, but gives us nothing to work with as to why we should view her that way. During the game's climax she has a would be shining moment when she returns Sora to his original form after he turns into a heartless. It would land a lot more effectively (especially when looked back on after knowledge from future entries in the series), if the powers of the princesses of heart weren't so poorly defined.

Before the climax we get flashbacks involving Kairi that could've helped make the friendship between her, Sora, and Riku more believable but they're instead used for lore dumps. And to cap it all off, at the end of the game, instead of having Kairi insist on joining Sora in looking for Riku, they choose to bench her on Destiny Islands indicating her part's over now.

Edited by FadedSparkle

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5 hours ago, FadedSparkle said:

The plot wants us to consider her to be on the same level as fairy tale icons like Snow White and Cinderella, but gives us nothing to work with as to why we should view her that way. During the game's climax she has a would be shining moment when she returns Sora to his original form after he turns into a heartless. It would land a lot more effectively (especially when looked back on after knowledge from future entries in the series), if the powers of the princesses of heart weren't so poorly defined.

I mean going by your description she sounds just like snow white and cinderella 

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Whether you like Kairi or not, if you played Kingdom Hearts long enough, it’s quite clear that Kairi’s charcter development (if there’s even one) is a complete FAILURE.

I’ve been a long-time Kairi fan, and while I enjoy her shining moments in Re:Mind and possibly in MoM, I truly think Kingdom Hearts and Nomura absolutely failed her. Ever since KH1, she’s been a troubled character because of shonen-type cliché writing and misogynic vendetta against her. Not to mention, her whole build-up toward KH3 has been utterly demolished because Nomura couldn’t help but have her kidnapped and dismantled… again. Even in MoM, her OWN game, she’s been sidelined in favor of Riku while she should’ve had more development and highlights.

It's like either Nomura (and the entire KH team) doesn’t know how to write her properly. OR, they just blatantly hate her. I genuinely think it’s both. Why? Because there are other female characters in Kingdom Hearts who were with the series since the very beginning. And they had more development and care, while Kairi, the main character, has been shafted over and over again. It’s just genuinely frustrating to see Kingdom Hearts betraying Kairi fans’ trust after having them stick around for 20+ decades with no payoffs at all.

Now you might have some high hopes after seeing her deciding to train with Aqua. But think about it. She had infinite time to train in KH3 and she’s gone back to training. AGAIN? Don’t you think it’s a bit weird her story is going this way? Why does she need more training when we know she are strong and combat-capable? In my honest opinion, it’s just another sinister excuse to shaft Kairi again because Kingdom Hearts clearly doesn’t care about her anymore.

But let’s pretend (even if we know this is completely false) that Kairi will actually get some development in KH4 and onward. Let’s pretend her character growth is about moving away from her old self (which is scared to move on and wants to stay in her perfect world without changes) and give herself agendas for self-improvement. Well, it’s a FLOP. If Kairi is really going through this route, then it’s too late. She should’ve been a flushed character since KH3. Her Re:Mind moments and “training with Aqua” teaser don’t do her enough justice. Nomura clearly is too stupid to realize these two key points:

1. ESCAPISM: In real world, people are constantly tormented by thoughts of feeling weak or not competent enough to strive themselves toward success. So they often idolize characters who are confident, strong, and victorious. Contrary to what some people think, there’s a reason Mary Sues and super-power female characters are endorsed. While they seem unrealistic, they give us satisfactions the real world cannot give. They are embodiments of what women (and even men) want to be. That’s why Sora and Riku are so endorsed. While their journey and power level might not make sense at all, they are symbols of triumph and escapism. Kairi should’ve taken that route of “fantasy” route but instead, she has become yet another Sakura trope character in many eyes. Her development based on “realism” doesn’t help anyone, knowing women are often criticized for being weaker or less competent than men. Not to mention, Kingdom Hearts is a game of Disney (where Disney is all about female/princess representation) and shafting her only makes Kairi fans (who’ve been tortured for 20+ years) can’t help but think Kairi is straight-up abandoned. That leads me to another point:

2. VISUAL REPRESENTATION: Humans are simple creatures. We judge something by just looking at it from outside. “Don’t judge books by their covers” is a fallacy. People don’t like characters by their hidden development and theoretical growth. People like characters because we visually see them do something and thrive. Again, this is why Sora and Riku are so endorsed. If Kairi actually had a playable segment and more highlights/screentime, she would be more endorsed. But NO. Her character development is more toward her own themes of not wanting to grow up and meanings of being princess. So people are definitely going to judge her by comparing to how other characters performed in Kingdom Hearts. Her actual performance was abysmal. Unlike what other people think, Kairi fans want her to fight and win. They want her to become Mary Sue, whether others like it or not. VISUAL REPRESENTATION MATTERS. Kairi will go nowhere if Kingdom Hearts keep giving her Sakura treatment where she is shown at the 11th hour to save the day. Kairi fans (as well as others) want her to actually do something. That’s where Kingdom Hearts and Nomura failed big time. By showing her kidnapped and defeated constantly, her reputation has been tarnished forever because they deliberately showed how stagnant she is.

That being said, Kingdom Hearts had every chance of making Kairi break away from shonen trope and break away from damsel-in-distress after years and decades. Instead, Kairi development has been nothing but disaster. They don’t understand that in the end, Kairi’s secrets and mysteries (which gives her more depths to what could come next for her) mean nothing. What matters is, AGAIN, VISUAL REPRESENTATION AND ESCAPISM. Nomura and Kingdom Hearts fumbled the bag hard. So many Kairi fans jumped the ship because their favorite character is basically abandoned at this point. Without any Kingdom Hearts 4 news nowadays and no sign of actual Kairi game, I’m certain whatever KH4 brings will disappoint Kairi fans even more.

I hope this reaches Square Enix some way, somehow. This is not a suggestion. This is a warning. It’s time for them and Nomura to accept this slow “20+ years burn” for Kairi development is an absolute FAILURE. Kairi fans aren’t waiting any longer. They need her to become a driving force, not some another Sakura or background noise. They need to correct the course for Kairi NOW. They need to actively show Kairi fans that they care for them by making Kairi playable and give her the majority of screen time instead of shafting her. They need to swallow their pride and actually listen to people who will support their work for years to come. Kingdom Hearts 4 is the breaking point for Kairi fans because if they fail Kairi again, Square Enix will lose them forever.  

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Posted (edited)

Dude, comparing Sakura Haruno to Kairi is an insult to Sakura. Their development is significantly different in terms of handling even if Sakura still comes out at the other end nowhere near the same level of OP as Naruto and Sasuke.

Also "This is a warning." - What are you five? Plenty of franchises have survived characters like Kairi. Especially when said characters aren't the protagonist (which she isn't, despite being the leading heroine, yes there is a difference).

Your ramble about Mary Sues is hilarious. You're saying Kairi fans want Kairi to be a cliche OP Mary Sue going forward because you're tired of waiting for the culmination of her development. But they precisely backpedaled on how OP she was in Re:Mind to continue developing her character rather than stagnate it at the finish line of an OP Doesn't Need Anyone Else Girl Boss (which contrary to your diatribe has been proven again and again within media to be a hated thing not a loved thing).

Edited by FadedSparkle

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FadedSparkle said:

Dude, comparing Sakura Haruno to Kairi is an insult to Sakura. Their development is significantly different in terms of handling even if Sakura still comes out at the other end nowhere near the same level of OP as Naruto and Sasuke.

Also "This is a warning." - What are you five? Plenty of franchises have survived characters like Kairi. Especially when said characters aren't the protagonist (which she isn't, despite being the leading heroine, yes there is a difference).

Your ramble about Mary Sues is hilarious. You're saying Kairi fans want Kairi to be a cliche OP Mary Sue going forward because you're tired of waiting for the culmination of her development. But they precisely backpedaled on how OP she was in Re:Mind to continue developing her character rather than stagnate it at the finish line of an OP Doesn't Need Anyone Else Girl Boss (which contrary to your diatribe has been proven again and again within media to be a hated thing not a loved thing).

Did I sound like I was insulting Sakura? She's known for her damsel-in-distress trope and I was using her as an example of how Kairi could've broken away from it. What, you don't get the context? Why so butt-hurt with simply omitting facts about Sakura?

"Survived characters like Kairi", What does that mean? Typo?

"Backpedaled" - See there? This nerfing is why Kairi fans are tired. They're being stereotypical and judgmental when they see Kairi not succeeding again, sure. But do you really blame them after 20+ years of exhaustion? They want Kairi to have some progress. Re:Mind was perfect and it should've been integrated in MoM. But no, writing can't help but hate on her again. If you don't know how Kairi fans are really feeling, maybe try to think before you speak.

"Tired of waiting" - Exactly. All Kairi fans are. They aren't waiting any longer.

"Continue developing her" - It's no longer a development, it's an unnecessary drag-out.

Edited by LazyDurian

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Posted (edited)

Sakura is known for overcoming the damsel in distress trope, so yes, by default comparing Kairi to her is an insult and I didn't expand on her because her progression is well documented. Also pulling the trigger on OP Kairi in Re:Mind then backpedaling in order to continue her character arc is not nerfing her. It's correcting a break from the correct course to take with her. They never should've made her so OP because yes, it does then open the door to the question of where Kairi goes from there. And if the answer is handling every threat herself then she's done, there's nowhere left to take her and nothing more to do with her. They would literally have no option but to kill her off permanently if they didn't backpedal from there. If you want to see it as a necessary evil that's fine. But the bottom line is that she can't just go from point A to point Z and have anyone be satisfied.

She only made the express decision to train in DDD. In KH3 even though she was somewhere that time doesn't matter, that doesn't mean the world outside wasn't moving. Realistically she only had a few days inside the forest and if she spent that time slacking as we saw in the scene where she's writing a letter to Sora and Axel brings out ice cream for them to enjoy she definitely didn't train enough to justify how she was in Re:Mind but it does serve to on some level explain why she does so poorly in the base game during the happenings in the Keyblade Graveyard. MOM was a reminder that no actually Kairi isn't some all powerful boss lady. You can whine about that all you like, but that reality isn't going to change.

Edited by FadedSparkle

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Posted (edited)

@ocean's rage - If Snow White getting the dwarves into shape with her wisdom and kindness and Cinderella enduring all those years of abuse from her stepmother and stepsisters and not ending either their lives or hers are considered being weak sure. But regardless of how they happen to have been written the fact their stories are ones that have been told for centuries of human history in countless languages (is what separates them and the other princesses of heart from Kairi). In KH1 they don't give us enough to feel invested in Kairi the way most of humanity up to the time of that game's release had grown up invested in the other princesses. And the fact is they likely knew this, but they didn't even bother trying. Like I pointed out in the initial post they could've used the flashbacks to make us feel for Kairi what many of us already felt for the other princesses but they instead used them for lore dumps.

Edited by FadedSparkle

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, FadedSparkle said:

@ocean's rage - If Snow White getting the dwarves into shape with her wisdom and kindness and Cinderella enduring all those years of abuse from her stepmother and stepsisters and not ending either their lives or hers are considered being weak sure. But regardless of how they happen to have been written the fact their stories are ones that have been told for centuries of human history in countless languages (is what separates them and the other princesses of heart from Kairi). In KH1 they don't give us enough to feel invested in Kairi the way most of humanity up to the time of that game's release had grown up invested in the other princesses. And the fact is they likely knew this, but they didn't even bother trying. Like I pointed out in the initial post they could've used the flashbacks to make us feel for Kairi what many of us already felt for the other princesses but they instead used them for lore dumps.

weakest in terms of characterization not inner strength. I feel like, the dwarfs, the villains, the mice, the fairy godmother are the ones who bring the films to life. aurora had the same problem. the later princesses all have more to them. even alice 

Edited by ocean's rage

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FadedSparkle said:

Sakura is known for overcoming the damsel in distress trope, so yes, by default comparing Kairi to her is an insult and I didn't expand on her because her progression is well documented. Also pulling the trigger on OP Kairi in Re:Mind then backpedaling in order to continue her character arc is not nerfing her. It's correcting a break from the correct course to take with her. They never should've made her so OP because yes, it does then open the door to the question of where Kairi goes from there. And if the answer is handling every threat herself then she's done, there's nowhere left to take her and nothing more to do with her. They would literally have no option but to kill her off permanently if they didn't backpedal from there. If you want to see it as a necessary evil that's fine. But the bottom line is that she can't just go from point A to point Z and have anyone be satisfied.

She only made the express decision to train in DDD. In KH3 even though she was somewhere that time doesn't matter, that doesn't mean the world outside wasn't moving. Realistically she only had a few days inside the forest and if she spent that time slacking as we saw in the scene where she's writing a letter to Sora and Axel brings out ice cream for them to enjoy she definitely didn't train enough to justify how she was in Re:Mind but it does serve to on some level explain why she does so poorly in the base game during the happenings in the Keyblade Graveyard. MOM was a reminder that no actually Kairi isn't some all powerful boss lady. You can whine about that all you like, but that reality isn't going to change.

You still don't get it, do you?

Backpedling was the worst decision they made because it painted Kairi, yet again, as damsel-in-distress figure. What they should've done was male her actually win the fight against Xehanort, even if it's an illusion, to show her actual progression. Or at least have Riku actually take her with him to Quadratum, not straight-up shoving her to the side. Her defeat was the very definition of nerfing. Taking a break did nothing but add an insult to injury. AGAIN, VISUAL REPRESENTATION. They needed to give Kairi a victory in MoM to give her a successful start of the arc. Guess what, they didn't.

And if you want to pull that "Kairi chose her own direction in MoM", don't even think about it. It was yet another catastrophic failure of writing. It's most likely KH team and Nomura just hate her, but anything goes. And if they genuinely thought this slow growth was going to work, it didn't. They don't understand why Kairi fans are frustrated. They don't want fancy writing. They want actions. To be frank, that should've happened in KH3. MoM was a definition of failure when it comes to Kairi development. Now we're way past two decades, it's too late

What makes Kairi fans any hopeful when they know Kairi had this much records of being sabotaged and fumbled for 20+ years? Why should they be any helpful when they know the writing absolutely botched her character arc/development? I dare you to give me an answer that can actually give Kairi fans some hope. Trust me, you won't.

P.S. you almost sound like another Kairi hater who deliberately want her to be weak and useless.

Edited by LazyDurian

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Posted (edited)

@ocean's rage - That at least is a fairer assessment. Though one would certainly hope that the story doesn't have to be carried purely by its protagonist. Also for as much as the KH series is using the Disney versions of the stories those aren't the only versions that exist and there are plenty of versions of those stories that have been told from storybooks as bedtime stories that people also have attachments to. That attachment bleeds over and effects how invested we feel. Again I'll say it's that one fact that separates Kairi from the other princesses.

Edited by FadedSparkle

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@LazyDurian - The only thing I want for Kairi is for her to get to finish her character arc. Not jump from being in training to being a BAMF Boss Lady and then have nowhere to go narratively. And if you look through my post history here you'll see that while I'm not a Kairi hater I do have a love/hate relationship with the character. Mainly because she barely feels like a character. She's nice to all the right people and mean to all the right people. Beyond that there's not much to her. She's gutsy and brave and tries her best. All personality traits I can respect, but yes indeed, the fact she spends so much time doing things off screen or because of poorly defined "special" powers does bog her down as a character. She's certainly not gonna be on any of my personal top 10 lists for KH unless it's for the crown spot on a most frustrating characters list. But that's okay. I'd rather see her character arc completed than butchered because some people are too impatient to let it play out.

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So you basically want her to just suffer again, become another damsel-in-distress, has no payoff, and let her rot down to the most hated and most poorly written character. Sure sounds like that's what you mean by "completing her arc"

The moment you said Kairi doesn't matter to you, I figured. I guess you're just another Kairi hater, then.

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Posted (edited)

This is like the 3rd time I write about Kairi, but I really need to say this;

I have a good feeling that Kairi will be the most important character in Kingdom Hearts 4, but not for the reason you'd expect.

The reason why Kairi will be important is not because she is about to have the biggest turn-around. It's because she NEEDS the biggest turn-around.

I'll die on my hill to say that her current trajectory of character development is an utter FLOP. Her 20+ years of slow burn (too slow) and lore dump has done nothing but colossal damages. She is the character with the worst treatment in Kingdom Hearts. Writing has completely failed her from beginning to MoM. And with no new KH news at all, Kairi's future remains uncertain.

While some Kairi fans remain hopeful, many others already jumped the ship and abandoned KH. They are seriously doubtful about KH even caring about Kairi at all. It's a huge shame that Kairi, the embodiment of Disney princess and main KH character, has been butchered to oblivion by poor writing and incompetent management. She gets undeserving hate because KH has failed her character arc. Kairi fans desperately need Kairi to have a better treatment, but based on history of Kingdom Hearts, it certainly doesn't look like it's going to happen.

That being said, Kingdom Hearts 4 is where Kairi will be in the main spotlight. Everyone will judge if Kairi will actually have a good development or she will be yet another victim of "damsel-in-distress" Japanese trope. Kairi has been the pillar of Kingdom Hearts ever since KH1. Contrast to other opinions, she is what makes Kingdom Hearts special. The future of Kingdom Hearts from KH4 to onward all depends on how they treat Kairi. Considering how Kingdom Hearts is still a Disney game, Kairi needs to have a big payoff if Square Enix wants Kingdom Hearts to be different from typical misogynistic Japanese trope writing.

Not to mention, Square Enix completely lost Kairi fans' trust by fumbling hard with KH3. If Kingdom Hearts wants to regain their trust, they need to correct the course big time. They need to actively show they care about Kairi fans by making Kairi (1) playable for significant time, (2) give her actual good development, not the current one that is constantly failing her, and (3) have her become a main driving force in new KH arc instead of shoving her to the side. While Sora is the focus of Kingdom Hearts, Square Enix needs to go back to the theme of Kairi's importance. But they also need to vastly improve how the writing handles Kairi. That's the only way they will retain (or maybe even bring back) dwindling faith of Kairi fans.

Here's my take: Kingdom Hearts 4 is already close to becoming a record flop due to long delays and dead hype. But the main breaking point for the game will be Kairi. If they fumble her character again, then they will lose Kairi fans forever. While some fans might not think Kairi is important, she is indeed the most important character in many ways, both in-game and outside of the game. Her involvement in KH4 will determine the fate of future of Kingdom Hearts, and that's more than you'd think.

Edited by LazyDurian

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11 hours ago, FadedSparkle said:

@ocean's rage - That at least is a fairer assessment. Though one would certainly hope that the story doesn't have to be carried purely by its protagonist. Also for as much as the KH series is using the Disney versions of the stories those aren't the only versions that exist and there are plenty of versions of those stories that have been told from storybooks as bedtime stories that people also have attachments to. That attachment bleeds over and effects how invested we feel. Again I'll say it's that one fact that separates Kairi from the other princesses.

well you're right there, I'd still happily watch those three films for the other characters I mentioned. and you're right there are plenty of better versions of the characters out there. for example the tv series Once Upon a Time had a great version of Snow White

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@FadedSparkle I never said she needed to be BAMF character. If my Mary Sue analogy threw off, then that's my bad. But it's time to accept KH is too stuck on shonen trope. And I will stand on my point about Kairi being Sakura. Sakura character development is a complete failure as well. Kairi is suffering the same fate because these stupid writers genuinely think shonen writing is good.

Here's my hot take: Kairi being buffed again and becoming BAMF doesn't sounds so bad. Her character is already ruined. So wouldn't it be better that they try to do damage control than cement her as a permanent damsel-in-distress? IMO, it's far better of trying to return to form by reminding fans they care about Kairi; stop this shonen trope and clean their murky past.

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I'll admit, Kairi is one of my least favourite characters in the series. She was about as interesting as tap water in the first game imo, and Kingdom Hearts II didn't really improve her that much. I was really hoping to see her get more to do in Kingdom Hearts III, and to be fair I guess she wasn't completely useless (playing as her in ReMind was super fun). But it feels like they just want her to be the damsel in distress trope every time. 

Spoiler

Even in Melody of Memory, didn't Sora have to possess her body to beat the illusion of Xehanort?

It's like every time she has a chance to prove herself, Sora still has to swoop in and save her. I'm really hoping that she gets to be one of the playable characters in KHIV or some other upcoming installment and she'll be able to truly handle herself, because I think there is some serious untapped potential in Kairi.

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Posted (edited)

@LazyDurian - I can't agree with you that Sakura's development was a flop, especially as someone who watched all episodes of Naruto and Naruto Shippuden and even every Boruto episode until that went on hiatus. But I will say anime is a helpful medium for allowing characters arcs to breathe in ways that something like manga, light novels, and video games rarely compete well with when compared side by side. That said depending on how a KH anime was handled if ever it came to pass, Kairi might just end up going the same way she has in the games. I will concede to you the fact that Kairi fans should worry about her for one very important reason: The recurring pattern of KH's female characters getting benched once their roles are deemed either permanently or temporarily fulfilled.

I.E: Kairi choosing to wait for Sora to bring Riku home at the end of KH1 instead of insisting on going with him even though it makes little sense for a person to stand by when their friend has become trapped in a dangerous place as is the case here with Riku. Namine merging back into Kairi at the end of KH2. Xion having Roxas off her so that Sora can be one step closer to being whole again in 358/2 Days. Aqua inadvertently and then intentionally trapping herself in the Realm of Darkness in Birth By Sleep/A Fragmentary Passage, Data Namine deciding self deletion is the only appropriate conclusion for her in Coded ("Just make sure to tell him what you saw and how you felt. If you do that we'll be ok. Her and me too." - *Disappears into Nothingness*), in KH3 with Xehanort shattering Kairi, and in MOM by having Kairi not tell Riku something like "Let's go together. You're a master now, so you can train me while we look for Sora." at the end.

Edited by FadedSparkle

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Posted (edited)

Also doesn't feature Riku (but you don't see me crying over it). The lack of Kairi doesn't mean much given the game is probably not even half finished and they only gave us the screenshots they did to ease the pain of anyone who was genuinely looking forward to the now canceled Missing Link. Just be patient. As others on this forum would say it, "Let them cook." 👩‍🍳👨‍🍳

Edited by FadedSparkle

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