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Gogo

Anti-Form, DiZ as a SoD, and why Xehanort renamed himself "Ansem"

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DURING DAYS HE WAS PLANNING TO TAKE OVER WITH AXEL-

DURING DAYS HE WAS NORTED THERFORE SAIX CONSPIRING WHILE NORTED

This is confirmed .Not theory .Play the damn game and you will also see them talking about their plan throughout . Don't be that guy Gogo . Don't be that guy ..

 

That's really all I need, because those quotes in particular don't seem like they would sound ambiguous. I could go on about Saix still possibly developing a firm stance with the Org by then, but I'll save that for later.

 

]If Saix was willingly norted he would've known what was really going on but he did not . Thats why he and axel did not trust Xemnas and knew he was hiding something- thats why they wanted to take over .

Xemnas could have promised him something, just like MX convinced Braig. All the Xehanorts have sly tongues. Whatever it was could have been the reason Saix stuck all the way until now. It's essentially like your idea of him losing choice, but it's still just as applicable, if not more.

Why be voluntarily norted so you can be controlled when you don't trust the guy in charge and think hes lying ? Which he obviously was . You aren't making any sense at all now.

It worked for Braig. Obviously he's not the same as Saix, but it's possible, and it'd go to show Xemnas as a businessman scamming Saix, and that's exactly something I'd expect from Xemnas.

Braig was in on this plan before the org was ever made in BBS . We were shown this. There is no proof however Saix was .

But there's no proof that he's forced in this, either. Any doubt if his control over his actions could be justified as Xemnas scamming Saix.

 

Like I said, these are possibilities, and in no way evidence. However, possibilities define what can/can't be considered "confirmed canon," so long as they retain a certain level of plausibility.

Edited by Gogo

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 That's really all I need, because those quotes in particular don't seem like they would sound ambiguous. I could go on about Saix still possibly developing a firm stance with the Org by then, but I'll save that for later. Xemnas could have promised him something, just like MX convinced Braig. All the Xehanorts have sly tongues. Whatever it was could have been the reason Saix stuck all the way until now. It's your idea of him losing choice, but it's still just as applicable, if not more.It worked for Braig. Obviously he's not the same as Saix, but it's possible, and it'd go to show Xemnas as a businessman scamming Saix, and that's exactly something I'd expect from Xemnas.But there's no proof that he's forced in this, either. Any doubt if his control over his actions could be justified as Xemnas scamming Saix.

 

 

I already posted interviews and special reports. I am not going to go through an entire games cutscenes so you can ignore those too. You admit to not playing the whole game and didn't even realize they were planning to take over till i told you and you requested proof . The mere fact that we see him norted from the beginning of Days the whole time till the end ( when Axel's friendship with him broke) he was conspiring to take over is the proof .PLAY THE DAMN GAME .I gave canon proof while all you give is speculation on a game you never bothered to finish..Do you realize how ridiculous you sound trying to tell other people what you think happened during a game you never finished ? Play the game and then get back to me.

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According to Young Xehanort, Sora was chosen as a potential 13th vessel because of his susceptibility to darkness. I find two particular questions that this poses. Why is Sora susceptible to darkness, and how did the Xehanorts find this out?1. Sora's susceptibilityI think it all traces back to Sora's use of the Keyblade of Peoples' Heart; it makes sense for a "keyblade that opens hearts to darkness" to actually mean "make them susceptible to darkness." Anti-Form would serve as a constant reminder to Sora of the side-effects of his Heartless transformation; this could be interpreted as, "his heart's still jacked up."

For starters Xehanort never claimed Sora was susceptible to darkness. In fact I'm sure they figured the exact opposite. This is why they went with a different way of making him fall. The whole point of the Nort's trickery was to tempt Sora's heart and abandon the self(The concept of identity). They played on factors working in the favor including the nature of the Mark of Mastery Exam, the fact that Sora was harboring other hearts, and Sora's own niave nature. They guided him to the spot where Xehanort's vessels would gather and placed him in a nightmare in which Sora proceeded to chase down pain that wasn't his own(right into the abyss of sleep). So in short it was not so much Sora being susceptible to darkness, as his niavity in believing in the pain his heart felt.

2. AtW's/DiZ's researchI think AtW (well, as the persona of DiZ) is one of the 13 SoD's. Golden eye, check. Scum of the Earth personality, check. Mark of heresy, check. He even monitored Roxas for quite a while, perhaps subconsciously eyeing him as the potential 13th vessel. All the while, he was studying Sora as he slept, and this would be where the Xehanorts could find out about Sora's susceptibility.

While I do not dismiss the entire notion of Ansem being a vessel it definitely is not as you imagine. For one thing it is quite clear from Xemnas alone how much he despised Ansem. Xemnas literally thought Ansem beneath him. Xehanort was the same way, Xehanort even furthered his humiliation of Ansem by taking his name. Also prior to Xehanort's experiments Ansem appeared to be a kind pure hearted man with nothing but the best intentions for his people. I don't think he would have been well prepped and qualified to be a sucessfull vessel. Remember in order to be successfull vessel the subject has to be filled with darkness, become completely recusant and fully embrace Xehanort's identity whilst rejecting their own. They must also avoid contact with other hearts which would nuture their own. Finally they need time for the Nort heart to take hold over the subjects heart. Considering how much Ansem hated Xehanort I don't see him becoming recusant.

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That's really all I need, because those quotes in particular don't seem like they would sound ambiguous. I could go on about Saix still possibly developing a firm stance with the Org by then, but I'll save that for later.

 Xemnas could have promised him something, just like MX convinced Braig. All the Xehanorts have sly tongues. Whatever it was could have been the reason Saix stuck all the way until now. It's essentially like your idea of him losing choice, but it's still just as applicable, if not more.It worked for Braig. Obviously he's not the same as Saix, but it's possible, and it'd go to show Xemnas as a businessman scamming Saix, and that's exactly something I'd expect from Xemnas.But there's no proof that he's forced in this, either. Any doubt if his control over his actions could be justified as Xemnas scamming Saix.

 

Like I said, these are possibilities, and in no way evidence. However, possibilities define what can/can't be considered "confirmed canon," so long as they retain a certain level of plausibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFZlleexi-s&feature=share&list=PLody2_ff0Vs7Ia7-Z-U2wQ_nKiqNCY13Y

 

There ya go.

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I appreciate your postings of the articles, but I still find your differentiation of canon/speculation rather questionable, as I've already expressed. Or, at least up until you brought up them discussing their plans directly. This is concrete material you should be bringing up, not material that can mean several different things as the other articles, no offense. Even so, I already went through with an alternative scenario where Saix still has the option of choice, a possibility that wouldn't contradict Saix still planning the overthrowing. Yes, it's my own fault for not finishing Days, but I think you can do better than posting ambiguities.

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I appreciate your postings of the articles, but I still find your differentiation of canon/speculation rather questionable, as I've already expressed. Or, at least up until you brought up them discussing their plans directly. This is concrete material you should be bringing up, not material that can mean several different things as the other articles, no offense. Even so, I already went through with an alternative scenario where Saix still has the option of choice, a possibility that wouldn't contradict Saix still planning the overthrowing. Yes, it's my own fault for not finishing Days, but I think you can do better than posting ambiguities.

I just showed you the video. :P

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I appreciate your postings of the articles, but I still find your differentiation of canon/speculation rather questionable, as I've already expressed. Or, at least up until you brought up them discussing their plans directly. This is concrete material you should be bringing up, not material that can mean several different things as the other articles, no offense. Even so, I already went through with an alternative scenario where Saix still has the option of choice, a possibility that wouldn't contradict Saix still planning the overthrowing. Yes, it's my own fault for not finishing Days, but I think you can do better than posting ambiguities.

 

I appreciate your postings of the articles, but I still find your differentiation of canon/speculation rather questionable, as I've already expressed. Or, at least up until you brought up them discussing their plans directly. This is concrete material you should be bringing up, not material that can mean several different things as the other articles, no offense. Even so, I already went through with an alternative scenario where Saix still has the option of choice, a possibility that wouldn't contradict Saix still planning the overthrowing. Yes, it's my own fault for not finishing Days, but I think you can do better than posting ambiguities.

 

Megaman just posted a video showing them conspiring . The secret reports back it up. Nomuras words back it up.I think I did more than enough to prove they were conspiring  while you have provided nothing but speculation bc you don't want to admit a traitor was actually norted . It's not the first time Nomura retconned something that contradicted what he said before.Remember DDD was rushed and the story was brought to the table way after Days was made. It's a point many have questioned when DDD came out.

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To be fair, that video was all I needed to be convinced, everything else I managed to dismiss. Granted, even Nomura said that there may be special reasoning to the participation of certain SoD (enough so for Xigbar to proudly exclaim being one), and until that reason is explained, Saix' willingness to be one is still plausible.

 

But that being said, I will admit that I'm genuinely more convinced of the possibility otherwise, and I hope you guys don't take my persistence in a negative fashion.

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To be fair, that video was all I needed to be convinced, everything else I managed to dismiss. Granted, even Nomura said that there may be special reasoning to the participation of certain SoD (enough so for Xigbar to proudly exclaim being one), and until that reason is explained, Saix' willingness to be one is still plausible.But that being said, I will admit that I'm genuinely more convinced of the possibility otherwise, and I hope you guys don't take my persistence in a negative fashion.

 

 I tried to tell you it was discussed in cutscenes . I had my hubby (megaman x) go look for an example while we got dinner. I don't bullshit . I did, afterall, play the game .Well as for Saix, it's extremely unlikely it was willingly based on everything we already discussed . Possible ? Maybe . But most likely not bc it wouldn't make any sense given everything that happened during Days .It would be totally nonsensical considering .

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When you consider the failures of the other Org. members, "self-awareness" could be another way of saying, "lack of loyalty." That was an important trait that kept certain members from being successful vessels, and Sora would certainly fit that trait.As for Riku, the Xehanorts gave up on him to a certain degree; them tempting him during DDD was more of a, "it's probably not gonna happen but worth a shot" type of deal.The problem is that Sora had noticeably more susceptibility than the average person, particularly when it comes to Anti-form; to endure side-effects that no one else goes through makes him a special case.Like I said, Roxas was probably more of a lack of loyalty. As for MX/Terra, you could argue that it worked primarily because of Terra's susceptibility. A lot of speculation on my end, I know, but I try to make the most sense out of it.

I'm not denying Saix' and Axel's ulterior motives, rather I'm saying that Saix must have eventually developed some sort of dedication to the the Org's purpose/s, otherwise he really would have had no reason to stick around after Axel left. It's never clarified how long they pursued that plan, but I doubt it would outlast Saix' new ambitions.

Okay I think I should clarify that self awareness does refer to lack trust. Self awarness is literally "Self" awareness. When Roxas acknowledged the existence of Sora he also by extension acknowledged his true self. By doing this Roxas rejected the recusant sigil and would not have taken had he been norted. Remember to be recusant is to abandon one's sense of self and fully embrace Xehanort's identity. The reason why Siax took and Axel did not was because Siax abandoned his former existence and fully embraced being a nobody. Siax showed no anknowledgement of having emotions, and did not pretend as the others did. After his falling out with Axel he excepted that he would never get his heart back and embraced his existence as a vessel. Axel however deeply defied being recusant, he was constantly in contact with other hearts(especially Sora's), and even pretended through his memory of his old existence that he had a heart.Also Terra is a completely different story because Master Xehanort transferred his entire heart into Terra while the other vessels only had peices. Edited by devereauxr

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It's not that bad. I mean, it's not like Saix was sunshine and rainbows with Axel, either, especially with Axel/Lea getting new friends. It's Riku and SDG all over again, and Xemnas would totally take advantage of that.

Okay I think I should define that self awareness does refer to lack trust. Self awarness is literally "Self" awareness. When Roxas acknowledged the existence of Sora and by extension his true self. By doing this Roxas rejected the recusant sigil and would not have taken had he been norted. Remember to be recusant is to abandon one's sense of self and fully embrace Xehanort's identity. The reason why Siax took and Axel did not was because Siax abandoned his former existence and fully embraced being a nobody. Siax showed no anknowlegdement of having emotions, and did not pretend as the others did. After his falling out with Axel he excepted that he would never get his heart back and embraced his existence as a vessel. Axel however deeply defied being recusant, he was constantly in contact with other hearts(especially Sora's), and even pretended through his memory of his old existence that he had a heart.Also Terra is a completely different story because Master Xehanort transferred his entire heart into Terra while the other vessels only had peices.

The Org. vessels (Xigbar and Saix) probably knew about the new Xehanort hearts, though.As for Terra, yeah it's a different story, but maybe not completely different. Same base concept, that being something is trying to control you, particularly something of darkness. Edited by Gogo

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It's not that bad. I mean, it's not like Saix was sunshine and rainbows with Axel, either, especially with Axel/Lea getting new friends. It's Riku and SDG all over again, and Xemnas would totally take advantage of that.

 

Yes but If you think about it , him slowly becoming more and more xehanort did not help either .It just separated them further and further over time and all Roxas and Xion did was remind them what real friendship and emotions felt like .Saix mocked him for wanting that .

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Yes but If you think about it , him slowly becoming more and more xehanort did not help either .It just separated them further and further over time and all Roxas and Xion did was remind them what real friendship and emotions felt like .Saix mocked him for wanting that .

Saix mocked him because he thought that friendships between Nobodies didn't exist; he still wanted the comforts of a heart, as seen when he's dying. Edited by Gogo

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Saix mocked him because he thought that friendships between Nobodies didn't exist; he still wanted the comforts of a heart, as seen when he's dying.

 

Yes but it was also out of jealousy of their friendship as well. All it did was serve to push Axel further away. Saix's behavior helped push Axel away from him and right into Roxas and Xion . Saix straight up said he did not want to even pretend to have emotions bc he felt there was no point . There is a reason Axel felt Saix had changed - he literally and figuratively HAD. The fact that he sought comfort and asked for his heart when dying only shows that he didn't even realize what would happen to him unlike Xigbar who died laughing knowing what would happen . More proof Saix did not know about the plan .

Edited by Flaming Lea

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It's not that bad. I mean, it's not like Saix was sunshine and rainbows with Axel, either, especially with Axel/Lea getting new friends. It's Riku and SDG all over again, and Xemnas would totally take advantage of that.The Org. vessels (Xigbar and Saix) probably knew about the new Xehanort hearts, though.As for Terra, yeah it's a different story, but maybe not completely different. Same base concept, that being something is trying to control you, particularly something of darkness.

No only Xigbar and Xemnas would have known that's why they lied to all the Org members about having hearts. They needed to bide time for the Nort Heart to takeover. The whole point of the Org.anization was to create more Xehanort's. Also Terra is completely different because Terra does not have to become recusant he just needed enough darkness and enough time for MX's heart to completlely engulf Terra's hearts. Edited by devereauxr

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Yes but it was also out of jealousy of their friendship as well. All it did was serve to push Axel further away. Saix's behavior helped push Axel away from him and right into Roxas and Xion . Saix straight up said he did not want to even pretend to have emotions bc he felt there was no point . There is a reason Axel felt Saix had changed - he literally and figuratively HAD. The fact that he sought comfort and asked for his heart when dying only shows that he didn't even realize what would happen to him unlike Xigbar who died laughing knowing what would happen . More proof Saix did not know about the plan .

 

No only Xigbar and Xemnas would have known that's why they lied to all the Org members about having hearts. They needed to bide time for the Nort Heart to takeover. The whole point of the Org.anization was to create more Xehanort's.

 

Actually:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEG8ztbMhM&feature=share&list=PLody2_ff0Vs7Ia7-Z-U2wQ_nKiqNCY13Y

 

Go to about the 5 Min mark. Turn on subtitles :P

 

"It only proves that the puppet is a more worthy vessel"

 

There is other scenes where they talk about picking between Roxas and Xion too.

Given that they were vessels talking about vessels, it's safe to assume that Saix knows what he's into.

Also Terra is completely different because Terra does not have to become recusant he just needed enough darkness and enough time for MX's heart to completlely engulf Terra's hearts.

MX's darkness is what controls Terra though, hence the "how will you triumph over mine" part. In that sense, Terra would be susceptible to MX's darkness.

 

MX's darkness could be no different from the darkness of a heartless controlling a heart, except the difference being that this darkness has intelligence.

Edited by Gogo

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Actually: Given that they were vessels talking about vessels, it's safe to assume that Saix knows what he's into.MX's darkness is what controls Terra though, hence the "how will you triumph over mine" part. In that sense, Terra would be susceptible to MX's darkness.MX's darkness could be no different from the darkness of a heartless controlling a heart, except the difference being that this darkness has intelligence.

 

The only problem with that is that scene was added in the REMIX Version AFTER DDD came out. DDD added this whole 7 vs 13 plot into the series when it's clear that was a retcon to the original games . When Days was made the plot points for DDD never existed . We do know that Saix had features like the ears and eyes and that Nomura hinted at there being connections to MX . This is another reason why there are inconsistantcies with some parts of the plot like Xemnas using traitors as a reason for not being worthy even though Saix was clearly a traitor

 Remember this :

 

 Speaking of the previous titles, about when do you start thinking of the ‘next title’?

Nomura: It’s a gradual process. When Kingdom Hearts was in production, I was considering ideas for Kingdom Hearts II and Chain of Memories. And when those two were in production, I was thinking of ideas for the next three, 358/2 Days, Coded, and Birth by Sleep.

— Were you thinking of KH3D when those 3 titles were in production?

Nomura: KH3D was put together relatively quickly, I was still concepting the story when I brought it to the table.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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Oh no, I'm not saying that it should've been known as canon material; I'm just saying that it is.

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I'm confused on what you are saying ? lol

I'm saying that Saix knew of the vessels plan, and that whether it'd be through the KH of Peoples' Heart or his new Xehanort heart, he intended on getting a heart.

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Actually: Given that they were vessels talking about vessels, it's safe to assume that Saix knows what he's into.MX's darkness is what controls Terra though, hence the "how will you triumph over mine" part. In that sense, Terra would be susceptible to MX's darkness.MX's darkness could be no different from the darkness of a heartless controlling a heart, except the difference being that this darkness has intelligence.

That's not even a safe assumption because the official english translation always drastically differs from fan translation. Also the Organization was still debating whether to use Roxas or Xion to house Sora's memories so he would never wake up.

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I'm saying that Saix knew of the vessels plan, and that whether it'd be through the KH of Peoples' Heart or his new Xehanort heart, he intended on getting a heart.

 

Saix knew what Xemnas told him and all the other members .That KH would give them all hearts . ( during Days and KH2 ) Then in DDD Xemnas wanted to use KH to give them all nort hearts according to DDD. He was able to obviously attempt to nort and implant when they were split into nobodies .For those that did not take, or members that joined later like from number 9 on he could then use KH to fill them with a whole new Xehanort heart.  During KH2 and Days that plot did not exist so Saix was trying to get back his own heart not Xehanorts. They talked about how they did not trust Xemnas to give them hearts so when Saix's plan with Axel was a fail saix lamented on how that now that the 'plan' with Axel was over they would never get their hearts back. Do you now see what i mean by retcons ? DDD just basically shits on what was said and done in the games before it .

That's not even a safe assumption because the official english translation always drastically differs from fan translation. Also the Organization was still debating whether to use Roxas or Xion to house Sora's memories so he would never wake up.

 

This is also very true

Edited by Flaming Lea

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That's not even a safe assumption because the official english translation always drastically differs from fan translation.

But that wasn't the fan translation.

Also the Organization was still debating whether to use Roxas or Xion to house Sora's memories so he would never wake up.

I'd say they were discussing Sora as an actual vessel, given the "Sora's power will be ours" part.  

Saix knew what Xemnas told him and all the other members .That KH would give them all hearts . ( during Days and KH2 ) Then in DDD Xemnas wanted to use KH to give them all nort hearts according to DDD. He was able to obviously attempt to nort and implant when they were split into nobodies .For those that did not take, or members that joined later like from number 9 on he could then use KH to fill them with a whole new Xehanort heart.  During KH2 and Days that plot did not exist so Saix was trying to get back his own heart not Xehanorts. They talked about how they did not trust Xemnas to give them hearts so when Saix's plan with Axel was a fail saix lamented on how that now that the 'plan' with Axel was over they would never get their hearts back.

I think the KH of Peoples' Heart was primarily a means for Xemnas to achieve his goals; giving the Org their hearts back was probably a cover story, now whether or not Xigbar or Saix would have been aware of that is up for debate.

Do you now see what i mean by retcons ? DDD just basically shits on what was said and done in the games before it .

So basically, we were both right and just drawing from different canons. Retcons are nasty, huh? Edited by Gogo

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But that wasn't the fan translation.I'd say they were discussing Sora as an actual vessel, given the "Sora's power will be ours" part. 

 I think the KH of Peoples' Heart was primarily a means for Xemnas to achieve his goals; giving the Org their hearts back was probably a cover story, now whether or not Xigbar or Saix would have been aware of that is up for debate.So basically, we were both right and just drawing from different canons. Retcons are nasty, huh?

 

I think Xigbar was aware but I'm still not sold on Saix for all the previous reasons stated .. Think about it, MX's primary reason was to summon Kingdom Hearts. In KH1 Ansem fabricated one using the hearts of all worlds . Xemnas wanted to do the same but instead using the hearts of people . If either incarnation succeeded they would not need to use the 13 vessels bc that was supposedly a back up plan if they failed . Then if both incarnations plans failed they had the 13 vessels and time travel as another back up plan .Basically Nomura is just making this shit up as he goes. It's obvious by making Saix a vessel when he was clearly a traitor and was unaware of what Xemnas was hiding is just another example of what i'm saying. As for the "Sora's power will be ours" part they were most likely referring to they needed to utilize his keyblade to gather all the peoples hearts they needed just like they stated in KH2 when Saix told him to go forth and kill more heartless. .Basically we are just catching all the problems/plotholes created by Nomura when he adds whatever he feels like without seeing how it affects previous game events/canon .

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But that wasn't the fan translation.I'd say they were discussing Sora as an actual vessel, given the "Sora's power will be ours" part. I think the KH of Peoples' Heart was primarily a means for Xemnas to achieve his goals; giving the Org their hearts back was probably a cover story, now whether or not Xigbar or Saix would have been aware of that is up for debate.So basically, we were both right and just drawingfrom different canons. Retcons are nasty, huh?

You're misunderstanding the Organization's intial plan was to allow both Sora and Roxas to exist and harvest hearts for Kingdom Hearts as long as the two remained unaware of each other everything would have went smoothly. However thanks to Marluxia's manipualtion of Sora the plan was scrapped. Sora began acting against the Organization and was thus deemed a threat. The Organization then created Xion an imperfect replica of Sora using Vexen Replica program. The idea was that Xion would siphon power of Roxas (who in turn drew power from Sora) and as long two remained in sync they both could exist elimnating the need for Sora while still retaining his power. However that plan back fired when Xion started taking to much power from Roxas. It was then decided that the stronger of the two would absorb the latter creating a perfect replica of Sora. A plus side to that was because they began housing Sora's memories Sora would be unable to wake up. Thus they would have Sora's full power without having to use the real Sora who defied their plans. Edited by devereauxr

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