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Anti-Form, DiZ as a SoD, and why Xehanort renamed himself "Ansem"

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According to Young Xehanort, Sora was chosen as a potential 13th vessel because of his susceptibility to darkness. I find two particular questions that this poses. Why is Sora susceptible to darkness, and how did the Xehanorts find this out?

 

1. Sora's susceptibility

 

I think it all traces back to Sora's use of the Keyblade of Peoples' Heart; it makes sense for a "keyblade that opens hearts to darkness" to actually mean "make them susceptible to darkness." Anti-Form would serve as a constant reminder to Sora of the side-effects of his Heartless transformation; this could be interpreted as, "his heart's still jacked up."

 

2. AtW's/DiZ's research

 

I think AtW (well, as the persona of DiZ) is one of the 13 SoD's. Golden eye, check. Scum of the Earth personality, check. Mark of heresy, check. He even monitored Roxas for quite a while, perhaps subconsciously eyeing him as the potential 13th vessel. All the while, he was studying Sora as he slept, and this would be where the Xehanorts could find out about Sora's susceptibility.

 

Then you get the third question: When exactly would AtW have entangled himself in the Xehanort mess?

 

3. Xehanort's connection to AtW

 

Nomura hinted at there being significance to Xehanort's different appearances. When it comes to XH, he seems to draw inspiration from AtW, much like MX influences the appearance of Braig/Xigbar.

 

-Amber eyes

-Round ears

-The hair, kind of. Particularly around the forehead

-Personality-wise, you could say that Apprentice Xehanort inherited AtW's study habits

 

 

Posted Image

Posted Image

 

 

 

Perhaps, in parallelism to Ven's initial connection to Sora, Terranort connected to AtW's heart as a form of life-support (since AtW described Xehanort as "being near death's door"). This connection would then evolve alongside the bond of anger/hatred between Apprentice Xehanort and AtW.

 

Sora wanted to help Ven. AtW wanted to help Xehanort. Thus, BBS would end how it began; changing the fate of the universe with simple desire.

Edited by Gogo

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That could be a possibility, remember in Blank Points ATW said that his memories have been washed away with the currents, this could make his suspectiable for him to turn to darkness if Xehanort finds him, however he was seen with Aqua in the RoD so maybe he could go a long with her and join the lights.

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I think you might be reading too much into it, but you brought in a nice little theory there about Ansem the Wise.I think that Ansem is also one of the vessels, but I never considered that Xehanort had the access to his research about Sora and the heart. This means that Xehanort knows things about Sora that no one else does, but maybe Riku and Yen Sid now that Riku also has it.

If Sora is going to looks for the key to awaken hearts, then Xehanort also already knows about it, and probably wants it as well. The things he could do with something like that would be absurd. What kind of hearts and people could he restore? Vanitas comes to mind. That might as well be how he gets his 13th vessel.

Anti-Form has always been more of a Gameplay thing than anything, even if it bears canon meaning and is a result of Sora becoming a heartless, it has no actual story value. The real reason Sora fell into Darkness is because Xehanort knew exactly how to do it, and anyone would probably have had the same fate(controling your actions in a dream is already hard; imagine in a dream inside a dream inside a dream!)

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That could be a possibility, remember in Blank Points ATW said that his memories have been washed away with the currents, this could make his suspectiable for him to turn to darkness if Xehanort finds him, however he was seen with Aqua in the RoD so maybe he could go a long with her and join the lights.

 

The entire idea is based around the speculation that he was already a SoD by the time of DDD. If anything, I'd expect him to be facing the same problems that Dilan and Even faced in DDD (assuming that they're at least still potential SoD's).

 

Fool. I'm pretty sure Sora was susceptible to the darkness because he was put into a deep sleep and that was the only way and their only chance.

 

If it has nothing to do with outside factors, then Riku would have been just as susceptible.

 

Edit: Gonna quote the rest soon

 

 

 

I think you might be reading too much into it, but you brought in a nice little theory there about Ansem the Wise.I think that Ansem is also one of the vessels, but I never considered that Xehanort had the access to his research about Sora and the heart. This means that Xehanort knows things about Sora that no one else does, but maybe Riku and Yen Sid now that Riku also has it.

If Sora is going to looks for the key to awaken hearts, then Xehanort also already knows about it, and probably wants it as well. The things he could do with something like that would be absurd. What kind of hearts and people could he restore? Vanitas comes to mind. That might as well be how he gets his 13th vessel.

Anti-Form has always been more of a Gameplay thing than anything, even if it bears canon meaning and is a result of Sora becoming a heartless, it has no actual story value. The real reason Sora fell into Darkness is because Xehanort knew exactly how to do it, and anyone would probably have had the same fate(controling your actions in a dream is already hard; imagine in a dream inside a dream inside a dream!)

 

Anti-Form (or, at least Sora's Heartless transformation), was an event that influenced the future of the series, though; most of the conflicts in Coded "originated" from that event.

 

Ansem SoD and Xemnas are both based off of Xehanort as he using Terra's body... So they look similar to Terranort. Other than the golden eyes, they are not related to Ansem the Wise.

 

I'm not sure how you can argue against the detailed comparison I just gave; the resemblance is clearly intentional.

Edited by Gogo

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The entire idea is based around the speculation that he was already a SoD by the time of DDD. If anything, I'd expect him to be facing the same problems that Dilan and Even faced in DDD (assuming that they're at least still potential SoD's).

 

 

If it has nothing to do with outside factors, then Riku would have been just as susceptible.

 

Edit: Gonna quote the rest soon

 

You do know they already tried both Riku and Roxas before Sora, right? Sora was just another back up plan bc the other two didn't work out .Matter of fact, in the beggining of DDD they were still trying to use Riku  but realized he had learned to control his darkness and therefore couldn't control and use him . So they just moved down the list.

 

 

Golden eyes and pointy ears are MX traits..plus Xigbars grey streaks count too.xD

Edited by Flaming Lea

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You do know they already tried both Riku and Roxas before Sora, right? Sora was just another back up plan bc the other two didn't work out .Matter of fact, in the beggining of DDD they were still trying to use Riku  but realized he had learned to control his darkness and therefore couldn't control and use him . So they just moved down the list.

 

 

Golden eyes and pointy ears are MX traits..plus Xigbars grey streaks count too.xD

 

That's my point. If Riku's resistance to darkness was relevant to the events before DDD (and not something he developed during DDD), it'd make more sense if Sora's susceptibility was the same. YX made it sound like it was some important discovery, so why would Sora's susceptibility be related to his stay in the RoS? That just seems like a possibility the Xehanorts would have expected, if you know what I mean.

 

I forgot what exact color was DiZ's eye, but whether it'd have been amber or golden, I'm sure either connection could make sense.

Edited by Gogo

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That's my point. If Riku's resistance to darkness was relevant to the events before DDD (and not something he developed during DDD), it'd make more sense if Sora's susceptibility was the same. YX made it sound like it was some important discovery, so why would Sora's susceptibility be related to his stay in the RoS? That just seems like a possibility the Xehanorts would have expected, if you know what I mean.

 

I forgot what exact color was DiZ's eye, but whether it'd have been amber or golden, I'm sure either connection could make sense.

 

I think you missed my point . Sora was susceptible bc he was MADE that way by the Norts once they knew they were gonna use him as a back up .. Riku had learned through trial and error and hard work how to control his darkness. Roxas couldn't be used bc he became too self aware .In other words, any one of them would've suited the purpose if they could just get them to fall to darkness . When that did not happen as planned with Roxas and Riku, they then decided to attempt it on Sora using whatever means to get him into deep sleep and then into the abyss of darkness. You need a vessel to be filled with darkness before you can possess them . It's a requirement .Anyone can have darkness in their heart so that makes everyone susceptible if they can trap them using whatever means necessary to facillitate this.

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That's my point. If Riku's resistance to darkness was relevant to the events before DDD (and not something he developed during DDD), it'd make more sense if Sora's susceptibility was the same. YX made it sound like it was some important discovery, so why would Sora's susceptibility be related to his stay in the RoS? That just seems like a possibility the Xehanorts would have expected, if you know what I mean.

 

I forgot what exact color was DiZ's eye, but whether it'd have been amber or golden, I'm sure either connection could make sense.

Riku was susceptible to darkness at first. But in his quest to get rid of the darkness he gained a resistance to it. Basically he recognized how to resist it because he was once controlled by the darkness. I think Sora was susceptible to the dark because most people are. Sora just never put up a guard to it. 

Edited by Megaman X

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I think you missed my point . Sora was susceptible bc he was MADE that way by the Norts once they knew they were gonna use him as a back up .. Riku had learned through trial and error and hard work how to control his darkness. Roxas couldn't be used bc he became too self aware .In other words, any one of them would've suited the purpose if they could just get them to fall to darkness . When that did not happen as planned with Roxas and Riku, they then decided to attempt it on Sora using whatever means to get him into deep sleep and then into the abyss of darkness. You need a vessel to be filled with darkness before you can possess them . It's a requirement .Anyone can have darkness in their heart so that makes everyone susceptible if they can trap them using whatever means necessary to facillitate this.

 

 

Riku was susceptible to darkness at first. But in his quest to get rid of the darkness he gained a resistance to it. Basically he recognized how to resist it because he was once controlled by the darkness. I think Sora was susceptible to the dark because most people are. Sora just never put up a guard to it. 

 

 

From what I recall of DDD, YX labeled Sora as "Plan C," not necessarily "back-up plan." In other words, Sora's potential as a vessel would have been discovered after Roxas' failure as one (or maybe even during, like in my own scenario). If they knew he was susceptible to darkness from the get-go, his potential as a vessel wouldn't have come off as much of a shock/revelation for the Xehanorts.

Edited by Gogo

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If Sora is going to looks for the key to awaken hearts, then Xehanort also already knows about it, and probably wants it as well. The things he could do with something like that would be absurd. What kind of hearts and people could he restore? Vanitas comes to mind. That might as well be how he gets his 13th vessel.

yea mx could try but sora would probably free him first out of the goodness of his heart

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From what I recall of DDD, YX labeled Sora as "Plan C," not necessarily "back-up plan." In other words, Sora's potential as a vessel would have been discovered after Roxas' failure as one (or maybe even during, like in my own scenario). If they knew he was susceptible to darkness from the get-go, his potential as a vessel wouldn't have come off as much of a shock/revelation for the Xehanorts.

 

 I don't recall plan C ever being said  but any plan after the original plan that failed is a back up plan. Meaning he wasn't the original target .That's why he said they 'moved down the list" . Roxas wouldn't have worked bc he became ' too self aware " . That's not saying he was resistant or susceptible to darkness. He returned to Sora. . Norty needs people to cast aside their identity so he can take over and that's why the org all got renamed with the X recusant . Again , since everyone has darkness in their hearts anyone can be made to fall to darkness given the right circumstances making them vulnerable.

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Well they only started to drop Riku as a potential vessel only after Roxas' birth (barely after, but still). If they even did consider Sora at that point, then Roxas must still have been much more than the back-up plan Sora would have been. And who's to say that Sora didn't develop/already have his own self-awareness, as well? Sora could have been a potential for different reasons than Roxas.

 

That being said, I'm going back at some of the DDD cutscenes and I'm having trouble finding whatever wording I thought was there. However, I ran across something else, that being how susceptibility could (normally) be developed. Assuming that susceptibility was the reason MX could take over Terra, perhaps it's something that usually has to be nurtured over time. As in, the iconic "invitation to darkness" (the "reaching out your hand" scene).

Edited by Gogo

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From what I recall of DDD, YX labeled Sora as "Plan C," not necessarily "back-up plan." In other words, Sora's potential as a vessel would have been discovered after Roxas' failure as one (or maybe even during, like in my own scenario). If they knew he was susceptible to darkness from the get-go, his potential as a vessel wouldn't have come off as much of a shock/revelation for the Xehanorts.

This should refresh your memory :)

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Well they only started to drop Riku as a potential vessel only after Roxas' birth (barely after, but still). If they even did consider Sora at that point, then Roxas must still have been much more than the back-up plan Sora would have been. And who's to say that Sora didn't develop/already have his own self-awareness, as well? Sora could have been a potential for different reasons than Roxas.

 

That being said, I'm going back at some of the DDD cutscenes and I'm having trouble finding whatever wording I thought was there. However, I ran across something else, that being how susceptibility could (normally) be developed. Assuming that susceptibility was the reason MX could take over Terra, perhaps it's something that usually has to be nurtured over time. As in, the iconic "invitation to darkness" (the "reaching out your hand" scene).

Roxas was an empty shell and was supposed to be easier to make a vessel. That's why they tried to use him. 

Thing is Roxas went back to Sora. That's why he failed to be a vessel. 

They dropped Riku as a vessel because he had a resistance to darkness. They even said it.

 

Master Xehanort was trying to take over Terra's body to use it as his. That's why he want Terra's darkness to come out. It would be easier to take it over and stay in control. His body was old and weak. He needed a new one. It's different than making someone just a vessel. The other vessels only have part of Xehanort's darkness in them.

Edited by Megaman X

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Well they only started to drop Riku as a potential vessel only after Roxas' birth (barely after, but still). If they even did consider Sora at that point, then Roxas must still have been much more than the back-up plan Sora would have been. And who's to say that Sora didn't develop/already have his own self-awareness, as well? Sora could have been a potential for different reasons than Roxas.

 

That being said, I'm going back at some of the DDD cutscenes and I'm having trouble finding whatever wording I thought was there. However, I ran across something else, that being how susceptibility is (normally) developed. Assuming that susceptibility was the reason MX could take over Terra, perhaps it's something that usually has to be nurtured over time. As in, the iconic "invitation to darkness" (the "reaching out your hand" scene).

 

No actually it was said straight up in DDD they were still trying to use Riku even during the events of DDD till they realized he learned to control his darkness . When they said 'too self aware' they are saying Roxas discovered his true self aka Sora who he later returned to. Obviously Sora knows hes Sora so he doesn't need to become self aware .If Roxas hadn't become self aware he would've been considered a good vessel too but that did not happen as stated in game. Darkness exists in everyone's heart except the PoH leaving anyone vulnerable to darkness. 

Edited by Flaming Lea

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If it has nothing to do with outside factors, then Riku would have been just as susceptible.

 

 

Riku has battled with his own darkness throughout the entire series, he built up a resistance to it and learnt to control it to his advantage.  Sora never built up the same resistance so he's more susceptible to it.  

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No actually it was said straight up in DDD they were still trying to use Riku even during the events of DDD till they realized he learned to control his darkness . When they said 'too self aware' they are saying Roxas discovered his true self aka Sora who he later returned to. Obviously Sora knows hes Sora so he doesn't need to become self aware .If Roxas hadn't become self aware he would've been considered a good vessel too but that did not happen as stated in game. Darkness exists in everyone's heart except the PoH leaving anyone vulnerable to darkness. 

 

When you consider the failures of the other Org. members, "self-awareness" could be another way of saying, "lack of loyalty." That was an important trait that kept certain members from being successful vessels, and Sora would certainly fit that trait.

 

As for Riku, the Xehanorts gave up on him to a certain degree; them tempting him during DDD was more of a, "it's probably not gonna happen but worth a shot" type of deal.

 

Riku has battled with his own darkness throughout the entire series, he built up a resistance to it and learnt to control it to his advantage.  Sora never built up the same resistance so he's more susceptible to it.  

 

The problem is that Sora had noticeably more susceptibility than the average person, particularly when it comes to Anti-form; to endure side-effects that no one else goes through makes him a special case.

 

 

 

Roxas was an empty shell and was supposed to be easier to make a vessel. That's why they tried to use him. 

Thing is Roxas went back to Sora. That's why he failed to be a vessel. 

They dropped Riku as a vessel because he had a resistance to darkness. They even said it.

 

Master Xehanort was trying to take over Terra's body to use it as his. That's why he want Terra's darkness to come out. It would be easier to take it over and stay in control. His body was old and weak. He needed a new one. It's different than making someone just a vessel. The other vessels only have part of Xehanort's darkness in them.

 

Like I said, Roxas was probably more of a lack of loyalty. As for MX/Terra, you could argue that it worked primarily because of Terra's susceptibility. A lot of speculation on my end, I know, but I try to make the most sense out of it.

Edited by Gogo

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When you consider the failures of the other Org. members, "self-awareness" could be another way of saying, "lack of loyalty." That was an important trait that kept certain members from being successful vessels, and Sora would certainly fit that trait.

 

As for Riku, the Xehanorts gave up on him to a certain degree; them tempting him during DDD was more of a, "it's probably not gonna happen but worth a shot" type of deal.

 

 

The problem is that Sora had noticeably more susceptibility than the average person, particularly when it comes to Anti-form; to endure side-effects that no one else goes through makes him a special case.

 

 

Have you forgotten Saix was a traitor and was planning to take over the org with Axel bc they didn't trust Xemnas? Yet he was a successful vessel. As for Riku in DDD they straight up once again said they were still trying to use him . Then they realized it wouldn't fly so they" moved down the list". EXACT WORDS. Meaning any one of their options would do as long as they could secure one of them somehow. All of the org became nobodies and heartless so they would all be susceptible according to your logic yet we see that not all of them were worthy vessels.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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When you consider the failures of the other Org. members, "self-awareness" could be another way of saying, "lack of loyalty." That was an important trait that kept certain members from being successful vessels, and Sora would certainly fit that trait.

 

As for Riku, the Xehanorts gave up on him to a certain degree; them tempting him during DDD was more of a, "it's probably not gonna happen but worth a shot" type of deal.

 

 

The problem is that Sora had noticeably more susceptibility than the average person, particularly when it comes to Anti-form; to endure side-effects that no one else goes through makes him a special case.

Young Xehanort: "Roxas, now there was a worthy candidate. But unfortunately he became to aware of himself and returned to Sora."

 

Self aware meant that he realized who he was so he went back to Sora and they could no longer use him because he wasn't even his own person anymore. 

It's not comparable as to why the other members weren't used. 

 

Young Xehanort :"We originally had our eyes set on you. But you developed a certain resistance to the darkness. So we did what the keyblade did and moved down the list."

 

Riku was their first choice. He resisted the darkness so they moved to Sora. Sora pretty much went into a coma. So they took that opportunity to make a hollow shell for a vessel. Because it would be easier to make a nothing a vessel. But Roxas realized who he was and returned to Sora. They could no longer use Roxas. So instead of Roxas they were going to use Sora. They still wanted to use Riku. That's why Ansem kept returning, trying to get him to give into the darkness. Since they finally realized they could no longer use Riku. They used Sora instead. Everyone has darkness in their hearts (except for the princesses of hearts) meaning they are susceptible to it. Unless they build up a resistance to the darknes. (Like Riku did) 

Edited by Megaman X

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According to Young Xehanort, Sora was chosen as a potential 13th vessel because of his susceptibility to darkness. I find two particular questions that this poses. Why is Sora susceptible to darkness, and how did the Xehanorts find this out?

 

1. Sora's susceptibility

 

I think it all traces back to Sora's use of the Keyblade of Peoples' Heart; it makes sense for a "keyblade that opens hearts to darkness" to actually mean "make them susceptible to darkness." Anti-Form would serve as a constant reminder to Sora of the side-effects of his Heartless transformation; this could be interpreted as, "his heart's still jacked up."

 

2. AtW's/DiZ's research

 

I think AtW (well, as the persona of DiZ) is one of the 13 SoD's. Golden eye, check. Scum of the Earth personality, check. Mark of heresy, check. He even monitored Roxas for quite a while, perhaps subconsciously eyeing him as the potential 13th vessel. All the while, he was studying Sora as he slept, and this would be where the Xehanorts could find out about Sora's susceptibility.

 

Then you get the third question: When exactly would AtW have entangled himself in the Xehanort mess?

 

3. Xehanort's connection to AtW

 

Nomura hinted at there being significance to Xehanort's different appearances. When it comes to XH, he seems to draw inspiration from AtW, much like MX influences the appearance of Braig/Xigbar.

 

-Amber eyes

-Round ears

-The hair, kind of. Particularly around the forehead

-Personality-wise, you could say that Apprentice Xehanort inherited AtW's study habits

 

 

Posted Image

Posted Image

 

 

 

Perhaps, in parallelism to Ven's initial connection to Sora, Terranort connected to AtW's heart as a form of life-support (since AtW described Xehanort as "being near death's door"). This connection would then evolve alongside the bond of anger/hatred between Apprentice Xehanort and AtW.

 

Sora wanted to help Ven. AtW wanted to help Xehanort. Thus, BBS would end how it began; changing the fate of the universe with simple desire.

I'm sure they took Sora since, he's normal like everyone else and has darkness in his heart. So he could've been a darkness from the start. Putting him into a deep sleep was the only way to capture him. Not to mention, Sora's been the biggest threat to Xehanort from the start, so if they could capture him, they'd be unrivaled for the most part.

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Have you forgotten Saix was a traitor and was planning to take over the org with Axel bc they didn't trust Xemnas? Yet he was a successful vessel. As for Riku in DDD they straight up once again said they were still trying to use him . Then they realized it wouldn't fly so they" moved down the list". EXACT WORDS. Meaning any one of their options would do as long as they could secure one of them somehow. All of the org became nobodies and heartless so they would all be susceptible according to your logic yet we see that not all of them were worthy vessels.

 

Saix may have started with ulterior motives, but he still ended up a lapdog, and it's the results that count. When it comes to Riku, I think we're just arguing semantics here. We both agree that he wasn't completely shot down, but I think we can also agree that the fact that they moved down the list shows that they gave up on him at least somewhat, and not entirely.

 

As for the Org., they were Nobodies developing hearts, so they were still beings of the RoN; they might have different rules of Xehanortification from beings of the RoL. For instance, loyalty.

 

 

Young Xehanort: "Roxas, now there was a worthy candidate. But unfortunately he became to aware of himself and returned to Sora."

 

Self aware meant that he realized who he was so he went back to Sora and they could no longer use him because he wasn't even his own person anymore. 

It's not comparable as to why the other members weren't used. 

 

Young Xehanort :"We originally had our eyes set on you. But you developed a certain resistance to the darkness. So we did what the keyblade did and moved down the list."

 

Riku was their first choice. He resisted the darkness so they moved to Sora. Sora pretty much went into a coma. So they took that opportunity to make a hollow shell for a vessel. Because it would be easier to make a nothing a vessel. But Roxas realized who he was and returned to Sora. They could no longer use Roxas. So instead of Roxas they were going to use Sora. They still wanted to use Riku. That's why Ansem kept returning, trying to get him to give into the darkness. Since they finally realized they could no longer use Riku. They used Sora instead. Everyone has darkness in their hearts (except for the princesses of hearts) meaning they are susceptible to it. Unless they build up a resistance to the darknes. (Like Riku did) 

 

The key point is that Roxas chose to be disloyal. Xehanort/Xemnas could have forced him to be a SoD like he would have done to Sora, but he didn't because he couldn't.

 

 

 

I'm sure they took Sora since, he's normal like everyone else and has darkness in his heart. So he could've been a darkness from the start. Putting him into a deep sleep was the only way to capture him. Not to mention, Sora's been the biggest threat to Xehanort from the start, so if they could capture him, they'd be unrivaled for the most part.

I can understand how it would work, but whether or not there's a better explanation is something I want to test.

Edited by Gogo

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