First I'd like to say that I'm a subscriber to the reincarnation theory. But I feel there's is a hole in this theory that goes largely ignored. Kairi. Here I'm going to detail the problem and see of we can't find a way the theory works.

As stated in 3D, when the χ-blade shattered, the 7 fragments of light eventually became the hearts of the Princesses of Heart. Kairi, is one of these Princesses. This means that, before the Keyblade War, her heart was part of the χ-blade. Therefore Kairi could not have existed as an individual prior to the χ-blade shattering. If she did not exist as a person before the Keyblade war, she can not be the reincarnated Ava.

 

So, does anyone have a way Nomura could work around this? It's possible I suppose for Kairi's Grandmother to have been Ava in a past life, but not Kairi herself.

Edited October 6, 201510 yr by Isamu_Kuno

First I'd like to say that I'm a subscriber to the reincarnation theory. But I feel there's is a hole in this theory that goes largely ignored. Kairi. Here I'm going to detail the problem and see of we can't find a way the theory works.As stated in 3D, when the χ-blade shattered, the 7 fragments of light eventually became the hearts of the Princesses of Heart. Kairi, is one of these Princesses. This means that, before the Keyblade War, her heart was part of the χ-blade. Therefore Kairi could not have existed as an individual prior to the χ-blade shattering. If she did not exist as a person before the Keyblade war, she can not be the reincarnated Ava.So, does anyone have a way Nomura could work around this? It's possible I suppose for Kairi's Grandmother to have been Ava in a past life, but not Kairi herself.

 

I think you're slightly confused, it's the Guardians of Light that became the "light of the X-Blade".

 

The Princess of Hearts were children who were able to restore light throughout all the Disney worlds because of their absolution to light. Therefore, Vulpeus can work out to be Kairi reincarnated as the Foretellers were around before the Disney Princesses (and Alice) were destined to be of pure light.

I think you're slightly confused, it's the Guardians of Light that became the "light of the X-Blade".The Princess of Hearts were children who were able to restore light throughout all the Disney worlds because of their absolution to light. Therefore, Vulpeus can work out to be Kairi reincarnated as the Foretellers were around before the Disney Princesses (and Alice) were destined to be of pure light.

"Seven pure lights" the Princesses have no darkness in their hearts that's why those hearts form the basis of all light in the universe. Even the GoL have darkness in their hearts so those hearts can't possibly be the fragments of light from the χ-Blade. And even if your version was correct, then that would make the reincarnated Foretellers and the Guardians of Light mutually exclusive groups. So by your version we only have 2 candidates, for Guardians of Light, Sora, and Lea.If the fragments of light from the χ-Blade are the GoL, the GoL can't be the reincarnated foretellers. If the Princesses are the light from the χ-Blade, then none of them can be reincarnated Foretellers.

Edited October 9, 201510 yr by Isamu_Kuno

Well for one thing, she's only 15-16 years old, so regardless of Princess status, her heart did not exist 14 years prior to KH1, so that's a different plot hole altogether for your plot hole theory. Lol, I think we just made plot-swiss-cheese. X)

 

Thing is, just because she may have a similar appearance or nature to Kairi doesn't mean that they are the same person in different points in time, reincarnation or not. And there's no rule saying that a Princess can't have the face of anyone who lived before them or anything like that. I'm sure that if reincarnation was a thing in Sleeping Beauty or Aladdin's worlds, Aurora or Jasmine probably had ancestors who looked a lot like them as well, and they weren't Princesses of Heart either. And really despite the fact that there was supposedly at least 100 years (should DEFINITELY be more than that though) between the Keyblade War and Birth By Sleep, that would suggest that the 7 Shards of Light did not manifest themselves as the Seven Princesses of Heart until at least 16 to 20 to 50 years before the events of Birth by Sleep, and even then considering the age differences between most of the princesses, their hearts didn't all just spontaneously manifest at the same time exactly after the world was reformed. If anything, the shards likely got scattered all across space and time, landing in different points, kind of like those tears in time from Doctor Who seasons 5-7. 

 

All of that being said, there is still room for Kairi to be a reincarnated descendant of Ava without the whole Princess of Heart thing getting in the way. And again, reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean that you have clones of yourself in the past and future. You just have people from different points in time that share a similar appearance, soul, and will to yourself. They are not necessarily the same character, they just happen to be very VERY similar. Or maybe everybody just time traveled and they're just messing with everyone. Either way, I see no reason why that has to discount that aspect of the theory.

 

Also, the whole X-Blade forging thing seems to be kind of arbitrary in terms of where the 7 lights and 13 darknesses come from. I mean clearly Xehanort is going after ANY 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses he can get his hands on at this point, he doesn't seem to suggest that he is going after the original shards. The closest thing would be the Princesses of Heart, but if that is the case and they literally ARE the 7 original Light fragments of the X-Blade, then that would suggest that there are actually 13 people out there that are the original Dark fragments of the X-Blade. And yet why isn't Xehanort seeking those hypothetical people out? Because he understands that it need not be necessary to go out and literally find the original fragments of the X-Blade, so long as the same results can still be brought about artificially. That's why his preferred method seems to be forming his own band of 13 crazies with hearts of Darkness and facing against 7 Keyblade wielders of the current generation. He only has the 7 Princesses targeted as a back up plan should the Keyblade wielders not cooperate and refuse to fight them, although this also doubles as a tactic to force the Keyblade wielders into action, forcing them to fight anyway. That means he would prefer to using 13 representatives of Darkness and 7 representatives of Light in order to create the "true" X-Blade that he is after. Unless it turns out that everyone involved actually ARE the 20 original pieces of the original X-Blade, because destiny reasons or some crud like that. But that would be a little too far-fetched, even for Kingdom Hearts standards. But point being, he still isn't fully playing by the "rules", he's just making everyone into artificial "shards", because everyone on his team may have a lot of Darkness in them but they still have some small traces of Light, considering how he didn't try to Vanitas-ify anybody (although if Vanitas IS one of the 13, then with Xehanort's heart he would be a Super-SaiyanDarkness being I suppose. Either way, he would be the only true "heart of pure Darkness"...with some extra), and of course all of the Guardians of Light have varying lesser amounts of Darkness in their hearts (hell, half of Riku's whole identity is his Darkness) and unless Ven had to be split up again for Vanitas to be a Seeker, he wouldn't be a "heart of pure Light" anymore, so even he has some Darkness in him. Kairi would be the only true heart of pure Light on the team and while she doubles as a Princess of Heart, really all that does plot-wise is just ensure that no matter what Xehanort will still target her one way or another. I don't think it really qualifies as grounds for her to not have a previous incarnation of herself prior to ever even existing as a Princess of Heart.

Well for one thing, she's only 15-16 years old, so regardless of Princess status, her heart did not exist 14 years prior to KH1, so that's a different plot hole altogether for your plot hole theory. Lol, I think we just made plot-swiss-cheese. X) Thing is, just because she may have a similar appearance or nature to Kairi doesn't mean that they are the same person in different points in time, reincarnation or not. And there's no rule saying that a Princess can't have the face of anyone who lived before them or anything like that. I'm sure that if reincarnation was a thing in Sleeping Beauty or Aladdin's worlds, Aurora or Jasmine probably had ancestors who looked a lot like them as well, and they weren't Princesses of Heart either. And really despite the fact that there was supposedly at least 100 years (should DEFINITELY be more than that though) between the Keyblade War and Birth By Sleep, that would suggest that the 7 Shards of Light did not manifest themselves as the Seven Princesses of Heart until at least 16 to 20 to 50 years before the events of Birth by Sleep, and even then considering the age differences between most of the princesses, their hearts didn't all just spontaneously manifest at the same time exactly after the world was reformed. If anything, the shards likely got scattered all across space and time, landing in different points, kind of like those tears in time from Doctor Who seasons 5-7.  All of that being said, there is still room for Kairi to be a reincarnated descendant of Ava without the whole Princess of Heart thing getting in the way. And again, reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean that you have clones of yourself in the past and future. You just have people from different points in time that share a similar appearance, soul, and will to yourself. They are not necessarily the same character, they just happen to be very VERY similar. Or maybe everybody just time traveled and they're just messing with everyone. Either way, I see no reason why that has to discount that aspect of the theory. Also, the whole X-Blade forging thing seems to be kind of arbitrary in terms of where the 7 lights and 13 darknesses come from. I mean clearly Xehanort is going after ANY 7 Lights and 13 Darknesses he can get his hands on at this point, he doesn't seem to suggest that he is going after the original shards. The closest thing would be the Princesses of Heart, but if that is the case and they literally ARE the 7 original Light fragments of the X-Blade, then that would suggest that there are actually 13 people out there that are the original Dark fragments of the X-Blade. And yet why isn't Xehanort seeking those hypothetical people out? Because he understands that it need not be necessary to go out and literally find the original fragments of the X-Blade, so long as the same results can still be brought about artificially. That's why his preferred method seems to be forming his own band of 13 crazies with hearts of Darkness and facing against 7 Keyblade wielders of the current generation. He only has the 7 Princesses targeted as a back up plan should the Keyblade wielders not cooperate and refuse to fight them, although this also doubles as a tactic to force the Keyblade wielders into action, forcing them to fight anyway. That means he would prefer to using 13 representatives of Darkness and 7 representatives of Light in order to create the "true" X-Blade that he is after. Unless it turns out that everyone involved actually ARE the 20 original pieces of the original X-Blade, because destiny reasons or some crud like that. But that would be a little too far-fetched, even for Kingdom Hearts standards. But point being, he still isn't fully playing by the "rules", he's just making everyone into artificial "shards", because everyone on his team may have a lot of Darkness in them but they still have some small traces of Light, considering how he didn't try to Vanitas-ify anybody (although if Vanitas IS one of the 13, then with Xehanort's heart he would be a Super-SaiyanDarkness being I suppose. Either way, he would be the only true "heart of pure Darkness"...with some extra), and of course all of the Guardians of Light have varying lesser amounts of Darkness in their hearts (hell, half of Riku's whole identity is his Darkness) and unless Ven had to be split up again for Vanitas to be a Seeker, he wouldn't be a "heart of pure Light" anymore, so even he has some Darkness in him. Kairi would be the only true heart of pure Light on the team and while she doubles as a Princess of Heart, really all that does plot-wise is just ensure that no matter what Xehanort will still target her one way or another. I don't think it really qualifies as grounds for her to not have a previous incarnation of herself prior to ever even existing as a Princess of Heart.

Like you said, Kairi's heart didn'the exist until 15 years ago, so she can ve the reincarnated Ava. Reincarnation is when a soul is reborn into a new body, since in Kingdom Hearts the heart takes on all the metaphysical properties usually attributed to the soul, it stands to reason that the same rules apply. No one is saying that the Hearts manefested at the same time but they where the shards at one point. I don't know if you're a Sailor Moon fan, but in the Stars Arc of the Manga it's revealed that the Sailor Crystals are Star Shards from which planets are created and eventually takes on a human host who then becomes the Guardian of that Planet. Something similar may apply to the Princesses of Hearts wherein the shards have been around since the creation of the new world but only recently became the hearts of the Princesses. As for the 13 Darknesses, the shards of Darkness may have been drawn into the realm of Darkness and may not have manefested as hearts. Sure, Xehanort would be able to use substitutions, but the result would just be an imitation, just like the one from BbS but better. It may work, but it's not the real thing and never will be.

Edited October 17, 201510 yr by Isamu_Kuno

Like you said, Kairi's heart didn'the exist until 15 years ago, so she can ve the reincarnated Ava. Reincarnation is when a soul is reborn into a new body, since in Kingdom Hearts the heart takes on all the metaphysical properties usually attributed to the soul, it stands to reason that the same rules apply.No one is saying that the Hearts manefested at the same time but they where the shards at one point. I don't know if you're a Sailor Moon fan, but in the Stars Arc of the Manga it's revealed that the Sailor Crystals are Star Shards from which planets are created and eventually takes on a human host who then becomes the Guardian of that Planet. Something similar may apply to the Princesses of Hearts wherein the shards have been around since the creation of the new world but only recently became the hearts of the Princesses. As for the 13 Darknesses, the shards of Darkness may have been drawn into the realm of Darkness and may not have manefested as hearts.Sure, Xehanort would be able to use substitutions, but the result would just be an imitation, just like the one from BbS but better. It may work, but it's not the real thing and never will be.

Actually souls have repeatedly been referred to as separate parts of the person than the heart. The reports state as much themselves. When someone looses their heart they become a Heartless. But if strong willed person becomes a Heartless, the body and SOUL stay behind and live on their own, forming a Nobody. The soul is one of the few components that make up a Nobody's existence. Just because a heart works in similar ways doesn't mean it replaces the soul. The Nobodies are living proof that a person's selfhood can exist even without a heart. And before you ask me "But wait Hero, what about Xehanort? He was able to possess Terra? His heart went into Terra's body, but his soul was usurping dominance as well!" That can be simply answered. Xehanort's method of heart-transfer calls upon infusing his soul and will into his heart so that they travel into the host's body at the same time. This is what sets his method apart from Ventus's. Ventus's soul is remaining in his body, which is why he can be seen smiling at the end of DDD, sharing in Sora's dream. His heart is the only thing within Sora, his will doesn't assert itself at any point in Sora's life, he's been a pretty passive force. The only contributions that his heart's presence has made is that it allowed Roxas to have a form and heart (yet Roxas' personality is his own mind you, even if he is a bit derivative of Sora and Ven to a small degree), reacted to seeing Young Xehanort, causing Sora to see Vanitas, and saved Sora from being completely consumed by his own Darkness. Sora voluntarily let Ven's heart into his own, and even then Ven only passed on his heart. The soul is considered the life force of a person as well in the series, so if that leaves, then the body dies. So if Ven is still alive, then his soul has remained in his body, proving that his heart is a separate entity from his soul. With Xehanort on the other hand, he abandoned his body altogether, letting it disappear with no heart or soul left behind, which is why Master Xehanort never formed a Nobody or Heartless with his original form. And with his soul infused with his heart, he was able to assert his will over Terra's body, allowing himself complete control, rather than just a passive force like Ventus.

 

With that in mind, if reincarnation in KH is like it's been in most cultures, then it would only require the transfer of the soul from one incarnation to the next. So that way each person may be a reincarnation of a past person, but they still have their own personality differences as they have their own hearts. So with that in mind there is a possibility that Kairi can be a reincarnation of Ava if her soul passed on into Kairi's form. Regardless of where Kairi's heart came from, her soul could have come from Ava. Again, this is not to be confused with Heart transfer or Heart+soul transfer, as this would suggest purely the soul moving on.

 

And while the soul hasn't really been focused on too heavily (and who knows if reincarnation is even a force in KH at all yet?), I'm willing to theorize a few things, considering how most of this conversation has been hypothesis. For one thing, if transferring your heart with your soul into another person's body allows you complete existence within their form, then perhaps it can be said that transferring just the soul would only be sending half of your existence into another person. Like with Ventus and Kairi, just because their hearts were in Sora didn't mean their wills were taking him over. Their hearts are only a part of who they are, and mostly it's their feelings and emotions, mostly tied along to significant memories. The most that it affected Sora was that anything Kairi found familiar he found familiar and he saw a memory of Kairi's that worked as a clue as to where she was being kept. And again, with Ven it really didn't do much more than giving Roxas a form and heart, saving Sora, and having similar memory recall moments like Kairi. And just like with Ven, Kairi's body still lived, proving she had a soul in there. Their hearts were just their feelings, emotions, and overall livelyness, as well as a good chunk of their personalities, but they didn't posses their whole being or their will. A soul by itself could very well work in a similar manner. If a soul leaves a body (as in natural or normal "death" by our terms) it would normally pass into another world...or fade away...or stay there confused as a ghost...or however you want to look at it (again, theories). But if it passed on into another person, or rather one who hasn't existed yet or has just become born, then they too could affect that person in small ways. While as we've seen it takes both a heart and a soul to completely rewrite and take control of a person's personality, only doing it with half would probably yield less results. Say if Ava's soul was the only thing that left her body and it traveled for however many years it did until it theoretically went into baby Kairi's form, it would probably affect Kairi's personality or being to some degree, but not enough to turn Kairi into an Ava-clone or a slave to Ava's will either. Just a few bits of Ava's personality might have found their way into Kairi's, but it probably wouldn't go further than that. It would be more of an inheritance rather than an invasion. As a reincarnation, Kairi would just be inheriting little parts of Ava's soul into her own, it wouldn't be affecting her heart or where ever it came from, so however her heart made her into a Princess of Heart is irrelevant because it wouldn't effect this idea of soul-transfer type reincarnation.

 

But that's just theory, and honestly if we've all been played for fools and there is no such reincarnation connection between any of these characters, then I'm just going to have a good long laugh. "Well, so much for that one!" XD"

The Reincarnation Theory interests me....and I am open to the idea of giving Kairi some actual relevance, but Ava lived loooooooooooong ago and I doubt her Soul came into contact with Kairi, with her Pure Heart of Light/Light Fragment of the True X-Blade, giving her importance other than "Plot Device Number 13", during the previous 14 Years that have passed. Ava's soul is either gone or wandering Eternity for, well, Eternity.

 

Unless she lingered like the Lingering Will, who's just a collection of Memories and Feelings Personified, then I doubt Ava's Soul could do anything of the sort. As far as I know, the only Foreteller who could have lingered is the 6th, through the potential will in Xehanort's Keyblade.

Actually souls have repeatedly been referred to as separate parts of the person than the heart. The reports state as much themselves. When someone looses their heart they become a Heartless. But if strong willed person becomes a Heartless, the body and SOUL stay behind and live on their own, forming a Nobody. The soul is one of the few components that make up a Nobody's existence. Just because a heart works in similar ways doesn't mean it replaces the soul. The Nobodies are living proof that a person's selfhood can exist even without a heart. And before you ask me "But wait Hero, what about Xehanort? He was able to possess Terra? His heart went into Terra's body, but his soul was usurping dominance as well!" That can be simply answered. Xehanort's method of heart-transfer calls upon infusing his soul and will into his heart so that they travel into the host's body at the same time. This is what sets his method apart from Ventus's. Ventus's soul is remaining in his body, which is why he can be seen smiling at the end of DDD, sharing in Sora's dream. His heart is the only thing within Sora, his will doesn't assert itself at any point in Sora's life, he's been a pretty passive force. The only contributions that his heart's presence has made is that it allowed Roxas to have a form and heart (yet Roxas' personality is his own mind you, even if he is a bit derivative of Sora and Ven to a small degree), reacted to seeing Young Xehanort, causing Sora to see Vanitas, and saved Sora from being completely consumed by his own Darkness. Sora voluntarily let Ven's heart into his own, and even then Ven only passed on his heart. The soul is considered the life force of a person as well in the series, so if that leaves, then the body dies. So if Ven is still alive, then his soul has remained in his body, proving that his heart is a separate entity from his soul. With Xehanort on the other hand, he abandoned his body altogether, letting it disappear with no heart or soul left behind, which is why Master Xehanort never formed a Nobody or Heartless with his original form. And with his soul infused with his heart, he was able to assert his will over Terra's body, allowing himself complete control, rather than just a passive force like Ventus.With that in mind, if reincarnation in KH is like it's been in most cultures, then it would only require the transfer of the soul from one incarnation to the next. So that way each person may be a reincarnation of a past person, but they still have their own personality differences as they have their own hearts. So with that in mind there is a possibility that Kairi can be a reincarnation of Ava if her soul passed on into Kairi's form. Regardless of where Kairi's heart came from, her soul could have come from Ava. Again, this is not to be confused with Heart transfer or Heart+soul transfer, as this would suggest purely the soul moving on.And while the soul hasn't really been focused on too heavily (and who knows if reincarnation is even a force in KH at all yet?), I'm willing to theorize a few things, considering how most of this conversation has been hypothesis. For one thing, if transferring your heart with your soul into another person's body allows you complete existence within their form, then perhaps it can be said that transferring just the soul would only be sending half of your existence into another person. Like with Ventus and Kairi, just because their hearts were in Sora didn't mean their wills were taking him over. Their hearts are only a part of who they are, and mostly it's their feelings and emotions, mostly tied along to significant memories. The most that it affected Sora was that anything Kairi found familiar he found familiar and he saw a memory of Kairi's that worked as a clue as to where she was being kept. And again, with Ven it really didn't do much more than giving Roxas a form and heart, saving Sora, and having similar memory recall moments like Kairi. And just like with Ven, Kairi's body still lived, proving she had a soul in there. Their hearts were just their feelings, emotions, and overall livelyness, as well as a good chunk of their personalities, but they didn't posses their whole being or their will. A soul by itself could very well work in a similar manner. If a soul leaves a body (as in natural or normal "death" by our terms) it would normally pass into another world...or fade away...or stay there confused as a ghost...or however you want to look at it (again, theories). But if it passed on into another person, or rather one who hasn't existed yet or has just become born, then they too could affect that person in small ways. While as we've seen it takes both a heart and a soul to completely rewrite and take control of a person's personality, only doing it with half would probably yield less results. Say if Ava's soul was the only thing that left her body and it traveled for however many years it did until it theoretically went into baby Kairi's form, it would probably affect Kairi's personality or being to some degree, but not enough to turn Kairi into an Ava-clone or a slave to Ava's will either. Just a few bits of Ava's personality might have found their way into Kairi's, but it probably wouldn't go further than that. It would be more of an inheritance rather than an invasion. As a reincarnation, Kairi would just be inheriting little parts of Ava's soul into her own, it wouldn't be affecting her heart or where ever it came from, so however her heart made her into a Princess of Heart is irrelevant because it wouldn't effect this idea of soul-transfer type reincarnation.But that's just theory, and honestly if we've all been played for fools and there is no such reincarnation connection between any of these characters, then I'm just going to have a good long laugh. "Well, so much for that one!" XD"

I never said the heart replaces the soul I said "In Kingdom Hearts, the heart takes on the metaphysical aspects that are usually attributed to the soul in the real world". The soul exists but in KH it's just a battery, like the heart irl. It doesn't factor into the reincarnation theory just like hearts don't factor into reincarnation in real world religions that believe in that.

Edited October 19, 201510 yr by Isamu_Kuno

I never said the heart replaces the soul I said "In Kingdom Hearts, the heart takes on the metaphysical aspects that are usually attributed to the soul in the real world". The soul exists but in KH it's just a battery, like the heart irl. It doesn't factor into the reincarnation theory just like hearts don't factor into reincarnation in real world religions that believe in that.

The soul is essentially the life force, yes, but my point is that bits and pieces of one's personality, or rather one's sense of self, still remain with the soul. That's why a Nobody has a sense of being and why Heartless lack that attribute, because one has the body and soul and the other is just a heart. And like I said, the soul doesn't contain all of the personality, it holds little pieces of it. It can be seen when Kairi or Ven react in their comatose states, they had enough of themselves left inside them with their soul to physically react to the proper stimuli, Kairi reacting to Sora's voice and Ven reacting to Aqua's desire to find a safe place for him to rest. The heart can arguably hold more than the soul, probably the lion's share of what makes a person a person, but the soul could still have leftover fragments of it. Because a heart is made out of the memories, experiences, and connections people make over their lives. It can be said that since a heart is a conglomerate of those things that a few pieces can remain in the soul as well. A lot of the heart's and soul's roles may have been moved around in the KH universe, but I don't believe we have seen enough to know for certain that they have entirely switched roles. We haven't been told that ghosts can't exist in the universe or if the Heartless and Nobodies take their place, we just have this general idea that "if the soul leaves, the body and heart perish". It's not enough to go on, and I think it could be explored further.