I have recently sent to "TheGamersJoint" a message offering this theory, and here it is :

 

Hey Cynic, 

 

I've been watching your videos for just a few days ever since KHIII's trailer came out, and you actually caught my attention with how dedicated you are to share information about the franchise. 

 

For a while, I've been thinking of something that maybe not many of thought of it this way, but hear me out. I believe that calling Roxas as Sora's nobody is a grave mistake, and this could mean many things for the future of the franchise. 

 

To start things off, I have watched your video concerning the famous question "Why does Ventus look like Roxas?", as you clarified it with the events linked with KH1 and KHBBS. However, there is still a concern with, like you said in that video, saying that Roxas IS Sora's nobody. I believe it isn't the case.

 

Let's start with obvious basics of what has been thought to Sora : When someone gives in their heart to the world, a heartless and nobody is born from that person. An example of this is Xehanorth with Ansem and Xemnas. But let's notice something : they have nothing in common in physical appearances. We can say the same for Naminé and Kairi ; originally thought to be linked. But, it's interesting ever since KHDDD where, at the end of the game, most of Organization XIII members, after awaking from their slumber and being "restored" to people, they look the same? This nobody theory seems controversial to me. 

 

From KHBBS' information, it has been shown that Ventus has been accepted in Sora's heart to dorm in while his body sleeps after his battle against Vanitas. Like in your video where you talk about this topic, I believe it is correct to say that Ventus was released in KH1 where Sora "sacrifices" himself for everyone he held in his own heart. However, this is the key part to understand WHO we see as "Roxas" appears into Twilight Town for the first time.

 

He appears infront of Twilight Town's mansion, speechless. Shortly, Xemnas appears out of the blue to adress "Roxas". As he introduces him to his identity, I sincerely believe that Xemnas had Xehanorth's point of view over the situation. He saw this as a new chance to take this as a vessel of darkness. Let's call, "Roxas", Ventus, as I'm positive it is actually him. Ventus then gets renamed ROXAS, a code name for SORA. 

 

It is even further obvious to me that the boy we see is Ventus with vacant memories of his true past, because of the following reasons. 

 

1: Xion's creation. She was made out of memories purely, just like a heart is in the world of Kingdom Hearts. The distinction from both is that Xion was modelled from Sora while Ventus had a share of his own core with Sora's, which permitted him to even exist again. 

2: The controversial point I stated earlier in KHDDD, where Organization XIII reborns as their identical selves physically, is noticeable with Sora and Ventus : Ventus returns to Sora without Sora changing. 

3: It has been mentionned in multiple games (KH2, KH358/2 Days for example) that it's surprising to see a Keyblade wielder as a Nobody. If no other Nobody has ever been able to wield a keyblade, shouldn't this be a notice that Ventus isn't a representation of a true Nobody? Doesn't a Keyblade choose a master to reflects a sense of purity inside of themselves, like Sora shows in KH1 VS Riku? 

4: If Nobodies truly cannot feel, why is it that Ventus could feel remorse for the people he loses, like Xion? 

5: Isn't  a coincidence that Ventus starts again a life exactly the way he was found by Xehanorth in KHBBS, how he had NO clue of who he even was? 

 

These things have been connecting in my mind for a long time. Make this into a video of what you think. Because, the point of all of this, is : 

 

If it only was Ventus, we have not truly seen who Sora's nobody is. If this is correct, KH3 might reveal the true secret behind the creation of nobodies.

 

EDIT :  Chucky the Wise And Flaming Lea

 

Were both VERY helpful people to answer questions, check them out!

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Cryxe

What you post from Nomura's words is his explanations towards how Sora and Roxas are connected. For Ventus, there is a difference between a heart and a body. His body WAS the thing that was damaged. Ventus' heart was released from his own body after the fight against Vanitas, where he decided to reside somewhere else in for protection. His heart is clearly still able to act on it's own will. In KH1, once Sora has released himself with the magic of Riku's (heartless form) keyblade, the chemistry that happened is like you said : Ventus took a new body, Sora's, but still kept his original image. It is possible that when a chemistry like this happens, the result becomes a new kind of person. Look at Namine, she's nothing like Kairi.

 

No i posted Nomura explaining Roxas as Sora's nobody aka PHYSICAL BODY. The very definition of a nobody is the leftover body and soul after one loses their heart. His exact words:   Why do Roxas and Ventus look alike?

Because inside Sora, which is Roxas’ body, is Ventus’s heart.

 

Secondly Ven's heart is in Sora. Roxas didn't have ANY of Ven's memories bc it was DORMANT.

 

Thirdly. Ven's body is in CO

 

Finally ...It was Ven's heart that was damaged almost to the death which is why his DAMAGED HEART sought refuge within Sora 

 

NAMINE was a direct anomoly bc she used Sora's body and darkness to create a nobody with no actual physical body. She's the very definition of a nobody as she is not suppose to exist yet does anyways. She's an exception made from a PoH

Roxas is Sora's Nobody period end of story. The only reason Roxas looks like Ventus is because during his entire existence he was harboring Ven's heart. The heart shapes the vessel so Roxas' appearance was affected by Ven's heart.

 

: Why do Roxas and Ventus look alike?

A: Because inside Sora, which is Roxas’ body, is Ventus’ heart. As was shown in the opening to BbS and the ending to Last Episode, Sora and Ventus’ heart are linked. And so Roxas, who is a part of Sora, was affected by that and looks just like Ventus.

 

Your first reason doesn't even make sense in the context of your overall point it just looks like fluffy rambling. At any rate Xion was crafted completely from Sora's memories of Kairi. This had nothing to do with Ventus and only affected Sora by trapping his memories within herself. Ventus did not share a core with Sora he merely sought refuge inside Sora.

 

 

Also it is Roxas' status as Sora's Nobody that granted him the ability to wield the Keyblade. In fact Roxas would later awaken the ability to wield Ven's Keyblade alongside of Sora's after his fight with Xion. If Roxas was Ven wouldn't it be the other way around.

 

: Why can Roxas dual-wield?

A: Because he can use both Sora’s and Ventus’ keyblades. Sora can wield two keyblades at once because he has Ventus’ as well as his own. As Roxas is a part of Sora, he also can use two. In Days Roxas awakened his ability to dual wield after fighting Xion. In KHII once
Sora absorbs him, he can also dual-wield.

 

 

Also Roxas is also not the only Nobody who could wield the Keyblade Nomura has stated that Xemnas could also wield the Keyblade but chose not to for his own reasons.

 

Ventus heart was dormant for most of his existence. However we find out in DDD that the body once purged of the heart the body immediately tries to replace it. As such Roxas throughout his ventures began to grow his own heart allowing him to feel emotions denied to some of the others. The emotions of Roxas' own heart would also effect Ven's heart forcing it to awaken and allowing him access to Ven's Keyblade.

 

Roxas and Ventus situations were completely different. Ventus had just had the dark part of his heart stripped clean of him. The reason why he appeared as such is because his heart was still recovering and adjusting to the trauma it just suffered. Roxas on the other hand appeared that way because he was born with no memory and no notion of identity. He was essentially  born as a clean slate because Sora still had his own memories thanks to Kairi and Ventus' heart was still dormant.

 

 

But the answers that Nomura gave didn't state anything about Roxas being a nobody or not? He answered towards how Roxas was able to act the way he did. There is still the missing logical link about how some nobodies look different from others! And I seriously cannot believe that Ansem and Xemnas come from either Xehanort or Terra's appearances as they look nothing alike.



How can we explain that Ventus' heart wasn't released after the incident of KH1?

 

Ventus' heart was severely fractured by his fight with Vanitas. It is the very reason he sought refuge within Sora to begin with. Had Ven's heart left Sora's body during the split it would have faded to darkness.

 

 

What you post from Nomura's words is his explanations towards how Sora and Roxas are connected. 

For Ventus, there is a difference between a heart and a body. His body WAS the thing that was damaged. Ventus' heart was released from his own body after the fight against Vanitas, where he decided to reside somewhere else in for protection. His heart is clearly still able to act on it's own will. In KH1, once Sora has released himself with the magic of Riku's (heartless form) keyblade, the chemistry that happened is like you said : Ventus took a new body, Sora's, but still kept his original image. It is possible that when a chemistry like this happens, the result becomes a new kind of person. Look at Namine, she's nothing like Kairi.

Vanitas is part of  Ven's heart in destroying him he lost a large chunk of his own heart. The incomplete X-blade was forged with Ven's heart as well so on top of destroying his own heart he further damaged his heart by destroying the X-blade which forced the what little was left to be forcibly ejected from his body.

 

Namine is a true Nobody in every sense of the word like Flaming Lea said she is a complete anomaly because she truly is not supposed to exist. The catalyst to the formation of a Nobody and a Heartless is having the heart swallowed by darkness. Kairi as a Princess of Heart has a heart of pure light devoid of any darkness. She is unable to produce a Heartless because of this fact. However when her heart which sought refuge in Sora's body was released Sora's own darkness acted as the catalyst to kick start the process Kairi couldn't naturally do. As such Sora's body and soul was used as an intermediary to form Namine's existence without actually having Sora's body herself.

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Chucky the Wise

That is not the correct time that I'm mentionning. I am speaking of the end of BBS, AFTER the fight against Vanitas. This is not at all the time of Ventus' life that I'm speaking of. The only link you can make with this is with my coicidental remark I have made in my original post, point 5. 

 

Ventus' body WAS damaged after that fight, not the heart.

no in the fight vanitas said that if he destroys the X-blade then their hearts will be destoryed

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Keyblade master26

Yes, the Apprentice Xehanort is the direct result of Xehanort merging into Terra, that's correct. However, if we wants to state that Ansem and Xemnas look the same (although I can agree that they share some of Terra's traits) , there's still controversial details behind all of this like I mentionned orignally :

 

2: The controversial point I stated earlier in KHDDD, where Organization XIII reborns as their identical selves physically, is noticeable with Sora and Ventus : Ventus returns to Sora without Sora changing.

 

Or you know, vice-versa.

They do look very much alike( with slight differences tho) Why? Because they were born from the merging of two people - MX and Terra and share traits from both.

 

When Roxas unites with Sora bringing Ven's heart with him Sora's heart is now inside his body too and therefore will take on Sora's appearance again.

 

no in the fight vanitas said that if he destroys the X-blade then their hearts will be destoryed

 

That is not the correct time that I'm mentionning. I am speaking of the end of BBS, AFTER the fight against Vanitas. This is not at all the time of Ventus' life that I'm speaking of. The only link you can make with this is with my coicidental remark I have made in my original post, point 5. 

 

Ventus' body WAS damaged after that fight, not the heart.

 Nope it was his heart. That's the very reason it sought refuge in Sora to heal .

Something tells me that someone been skipping the cutscenes.

Roxas is Sora's Nobody period end of story. The only reason Roxas looks like Ventus is because during his entire existence he was harboring Ven's heart. The heart shapes the vessel so Roxas' appearance was affected by Ven's heart.

 

: Why do Roxas and Ventus look alike?

 

A: Because inside Sora, which is Roxas’ body, is Ventus’ heart. As was shown in the opening to BbS and the ending to Last Episode, Sora and Ventus’ heart are linked. And so Roxas, who is a part of Sora, was affected by that and looks just like Ventus.

 

Your first reason doesn't even make sense in the context of your overall point it just looks like fluffy rambling. At any rate Xion was crafted completely from Sora's memories of Kairi. This had nothing to do with Ventus and only affected Sora by trapping his memories within herself. Ventus did not share a core with Sora he merely sought refuge inside Sora.

 

 

Also it is Roxas' status as Sora's Nobody that granted him the ability to wield the Keyblade. In fact Roxas would later awaken the ability to wield Ven's Keyblade alongside of Sora's after his fight with Xion. If Roxas was Ven wouldn't it be the other way around.

 

: Why can Roxas dual-wield?

 

A: Because he can use both Sora’s and Ventus’ keyblades. Sora can wield two keyblades at once because he has Ventus’ as well as his own. As Roxas is a part of Sora, he also can use two. In Days Roxas awakened his ability to dual wield after fighting Xion. In KHII once
Sora absorbs him, he can also dual-wield.

 

 

Also Roxas is also not the only Nobody who could wield the Keyblade Nomura has stated that Xemnas could also wield the Keyblade but chose not to for his own reasons.

 

Ventus heart was dormat for most of his existence. However we find out in DDD that the body once purged of the heart the body immediately tries to replace it. As such Roxas throughout his ventures began to grow his own heart allowing him to feel emotions denied to some of the others. The emotions of Roxas' own heart would also effect Ven's heart forcing it to awaken and allowing him access to Ven's Keyblade.

 

Roxas and Ventus situations were completely different. Ventus had just had the dark part of his heart stripped clean of him. The reason why he appeared as such is because his heart was still recovering and adjusting to the trauma it just suffering. Roxas on the other hand appeared that way because he was born with no memory and no notion of identity. He was essentially  born as a clean slate because Sora still had his own memories thanks to Kairi and Ventus' heart was still dormant.

 

 

 

Ventus' heart was severely fractured by his fight with Vanitas. It is the very reason he sought refuge within Sora to begin with. Had Ven's heart left Sora's body during the split it would have faded to darkness.

 

 

Vanitas is part of  Ven's heart in destroying him he lost a large chunk of his own heart. The incomplete X-blade was forged with Ven's heart as well so on top of destroying his own heart he further damaged his heart by destroying the X-blade which forced the what little was left to be forcibly ejected from his body.

 

Namine is a true Nobody in every sense of the word like Flaming Lea said she is a complete anomaly because she truly is not supposed to exist. The catalyst to the formation of a Nobody and a Heartless is having the heart swallowed by darkness. Kairi as a Princess of Heart has a heart of pure light devoid of any darkness. She is unable to produce a Heartless because of this fact. However when her heart which sought refuge in Sora's body was released Sora's own darkness acted as the catalyst to kick start the process Kairi couldn't naturally do. As such Sora's body and soul was used as an intermediary to form Namine's existence without actually having Sora's body herself.

 

 

Ok, I will admit that I was wrong about what was damaged in Ventus. This is clarified. 

 

Allow me to explain why I brought up these arguments : 

 

What I believed foremost to what happened in KH1 for Ventus' heart is that upon being released, the heart would of formed a body by itself. I believed this because of how the core of memories shapes people. But it makes sense what you're saying : Ventus' heart could of just went into the abyss of darkness. All the other hearts that were released in KH1 already had a body that existed, and so the hearts knew where to go to be restored.

Xion's creation had mixed conceptions over the creation of someone based off purely memories. From what a heart is, a heart contains memories. It didn't make sense to me that Ventus would be a nobody that was never meant to be when there was some kind of fragments left about him to awaken his image in Roxas. Even if the true Ventus is dormant, it was confusing to see that even though he remembers NOTHING about his true past, how come his image would be awaken if he was dormant afterall? Shouldn't of he just awaken as another image? 

 

About Xemnas ability to wield a Keyblade, I was never aware of it as it was never mentionned in the games anyway... Why wasn't it?

 

For that last point, it's a good reminder from the games of the people around Namine mentionning how much she represents what a Nobody is. 

 

I just still feel like theres something... off about this. 

 

 

Something tells me that someone been skipping the cutscenes.

I can understand why you're saying that, however, I'm the kind of person who overthinks and tries to see what's controversial about the games. I have paid attention to the games. I will admit is has been long since I have played them since the very first one, but I tried to remember as much as I could from this theory I had too a long time ago. I finally decided to share my thoughts about this. 

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Cryxe

 

Ok, I will admit that I was wrong about what was damaged in Ventus. This is clarified. 

 

Allow me to explain why I brought up these arguments : Xion's creation had mixed conceptions over the creation of someone based off purely memories. From what a heart is, a heart contains memories. It didn't make sense to me that Ventus would be a nobody that was never meant to be when there was some kind of fragments left about him to awaken his image in Roxas. Even if the true Ventus is dormant, it was confusing to see that even though he remembers NOTHING about his true past, how come his image would be awaken if he was dormant afterall? Shouldn't of he just awaken as another image? 

 

About Xemnas ability to wield a Keyblade, I was never aware of it as it was never mentionned in the games anyway... Why wasn't it?

 

For that last point, it's a good reminder from the games of the people around Namine mentionning how much she represents what a Nobody is. 

 

I just still feel like theres something... off about this. 

 

 

I can understand why you're saying that, however, I'm the kind of person who overthinks and tries to see what's controversial about the games. I have paid attention to the games. I will admit is has been long since I have played them since the very first one, but I tried to remember as much as I could from this theory I had too a long time ago. I finally decided to share my thoughts about this. 

 

 

 

Xemnas was hiding his true intentions all along bc of the plan to make all org members vessels. He lied and deceived to further his plans.

 

 

As for Ven's heart ...when there is no "original heart" at all in the body, the presence of another one, (even dormant) would affect it. However when Roxas returned to Sora and his heart was back in his body his appearance changed back to Sora.

 

 

These answers given are canon fact and have been for years. You need to go play them again or watch the cutscenes again.

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Flaming Lea

 

Ok, I will admit that I was wrong about what was damaged in Ventus. This is clarified. 

 

Allow me to explain why I brought up these arguments : Xion's creation had mixed conceptions over the creation of someone based off purely memories. From what a heart is, a heart contains memories. It didn't make sense to me that Ventus would be a nobody that was never meant to be when there was some kind of fragments left about him to awaken his image in Roxas. Even if the true Ventus is dormant, it was confusing to see that even though he remembers NOTHING about his true past, how come his image would be awaken if he was dormant afterall? Shouldn't of he just awaken as another image? 

 

About Xemnas ability to wield a Keyblade, I was never aware of it as it was never mentionned in the games anyway... Why wasn't it?

 

For that last point, it's a good reminder from the games of the people around Namine mentionning how much she represents what a Nobody is. 

 

I just still feel like theres something... off about this. 

 

 

I can understand why you're saying that, however, I'm the kind of person who overthinks and tries to see what's controversial about the games. I have paid attention to the games. I will admit is has been long since I have played them since the very first one, but I tried to remember as much as I could from this theory I had too a long time ago. I finally decided to share my thoughts about this. 

 

Again I explained this Roxas was born in the image of Ventus because of the fact that Roxas had Ven's heart inside him. The heart shapes the vessel so Ventus' heart which was the only one present at the time shaped Roxas' appearance to that of Ven's. Even now that Roxas' has grown his own heart he still will take on the appearance of Ventus because that is how he and everyone around him sees Roxas. Roxas alongside of Xemnas and Namine are classified as special Nobodies because the circumstances surrounding there births are different from how a normal Nobody is formed. They are anomalies yes, but they are still classified as Nobodies though.

Again I explained this Roxas was born in the image of Ventus because of the fact that Roxas had Ven's heart inside him. The heart shapes the vessel so Ventus' heart which was the only one present at the time shaped Roxas' appearance to that of Ven's. Even now that Roxas' has grown his own heart he still will take on the appearance of Ventus because that is how he and everyone around him sees Roxas. Roxas alongside of Xemnas and Namine are classified as special Nobodies because the circumstances surrounding there births are different from how a normal Nobody is formed. They are anomalies yes, but they are still classified as Nobodies though.

 

 

Xemnas was hiding his true intentions all along bc of the plan to make all org members vessels. He lied and deceived to further his plans.

 

 

As for Ven's heart ...when there is no "original heart" at all in the body, just the presence of another one, (even dormant) would affect it. However when Roxas returned to Sora and his heart was back in his body his appearance changed back to Sora.

 

 

These answers given are canon fact and have been for years. You need to go play them again or watch the cutscenes again.

 

 

Well thank you both for the clarifications. I had this in mind of a while, and as KHIII was announced, I thought getting it out would be a better thing to do. 

 

In general, when I finished playing DDD and Organization XIII were restored to their original selves, nothing made sense to me. But I can simply see now that Sora and Xehanort had an interaction with another character in themselves that changed the way someone is caught in darkness. For Kairi, I didn't think about the fact that she was a princess of light and that she didn't generate a heartless. Very cool. With DDD, I just thought there were no logical links towards how we can just call some "unique cases" and some "normal". To me, it was either you're a nobody or... something else. 

 

I have given to both of you the credit of information on my original post! 

Edited June 22, 201510 yr by Cryxe

Hey everyone, it's been an eternity since I last posted!  While I agree with and understand nearly everything that has been reviewed or explained as canon, one thing still bugs me.  

 

I've known for a long time that Roxas is Sora's Nobody.  However, it didn't fully occur to me that Roxas was a full manifestation of Sora's physical body.  What I don't understand is what body is Sora using right after he's "revived" by Kairi at Hollow Bastion?  By that point, Roxas was already born and was using Sora's body.  How was Sora able to even have a body at that point?

Hey everyone, it's been an eternity since I last posted!  While I agree with and understand nearly everything that has been reviewed or explained as canon, one thing still bugs me.  

 

I've known for a long time that Roxas is Sora's Nobody.  However, it didn't fully occur to me that Roxas was a full manifestation of Sora's physical body.  What I don't understand is what body is Sora using right after he's "revived" by Kairi at Hollow Bastion?  By that point, Roxas was already born and was using Sora's body.  How was Sora able to even have a body at that point?

 

Kairi as a PoH gave him that form as she hugged & purified him..He was literally a heart shaped like a "Sora" form lol

Kairi as a PoH gave him that form as she hugged & purified him..He was literally a heart shaped like a "Sora" form lol

Thanks for clarifying!  I guess we can sum it up as a "temporary body" that served as a placeholder until he (Sora) was able to merge with Roxas at the beginning of KH2.  Something tells me that Roxas' character wasn't fully developed at the time KH1 was finished, so this could be a small plot hole.

Thanks for clarifying!  I guess we can sum it up as a "temporary body" that served as a placeholder until he (Sora) was able to merge with Roxas at the beginning of KH2.  Something tells me that Roxas' character wasn't fully developed at the time KH1 was finished, so this could be a small plot hole.

Well although post KH1 elements weren't thought of during development they did give an explanation. Roxas was Sora's physical body while Sora as Flaming Lea said was a walking heart.

Edited June 25, 201510 yr by Flaming Lea