Hey everyone.

There's something I've been wondering for ages now and I'm hoping it will finally be explained in KH3, but until then I'm curious to hear your theories. So in Birth by Sleep it was confirmed that Axel/Lea and Saix/Isa were best friends when they were human and we learned that they lived in Radiant Garden. So this begs the question: how/when did they become nobodies? Did they succeed in sneaking into the castle after their first attempt failed and end up getting roped into the apprentices' experiment? Or did they become nobodies when Radiant Garden was overcome by darkness? Or do you have another theory? 

Personally, I think that they managed to sneak in and ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, being turned into Nobodies by Xehanort. It makes sense since they immediately follow the nobodies of the six apprentices in terms of rank in the Organization. 

I'm not sure if this has already been officially explained, but if it has I can't find anything to confirm it. So what do you guys think?

 

From the looks of it she’ll be playing a bigger role in the fight and be less of a damsel in distress (yay!) but that’s all the trailers have shown since I have (so far) avoided most spoilers  

15 hours ago, Allwil13 said:

Yeah, they really need to stop putting her in the damsel in distress role. I know they tried in KHII, but having her kill two measly little heartless with a keyblade doesn't fix the issue. Fingers crossed that this gets remedied in KHIII.

I hope we get more background on how Kairi came to Destiny Islands and her life afterwards on Destiny Islands.  I heard she was adopted by Sora and Riku's town mayor.

6 hours ago, ienzo628 said:

I hope we get more background on how Kairi came to Destiny Islands and her life afterwards on Destiny Islands.  I heard she was adopted by Sora and Riku's town mayor.

I always figured she was adopted there. It was mentioned in KHI by Riku wasn't it?

On another topic about Axel and Saix, it's interesting that despite being the second in command, Saix doesn't seem to know about Nobodies being able to grow their own hearts back. Seems only Xemnas and Xigbar know this little fact. Because it's not even in Ansem's reports about the Nobodies either. While it might be obvious, could this be how Xemnas keeps Saix in check and why he gave up on whatever it is he was planning before?

4 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

I always figured she was adopted there. It was mentioned in KHI by Riku wasn't it?

On another topic about Axel and Saix, it's interesting that despite being the second in command, Saix doesn't seem to know about Nobodies being able to grow their own hearts back. Seems only Xemnas and Xigbar know this little fact. Because it's not even in Ansem's reports about the Nobodies either. While it might be obvious, could this be how Xemnas keeps Saix in check and why he gave up on whatever it is he was planning before?

Could be. I always did get the feeling that Xemnas was withholding a bunch of information from Saix in order to keep him in line and ensure he stayed loyal to him.

4 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Could be. I always did get the feeling that Xemnas was withholding a bunch of information from Saix in order to keep him in line and ensure he stayed loyal to him.

I just thought the whole "Nobodies growing hearts" was just something that came out of nowhere.

Xemnas does have a lot of secrets.  So, I think he has more under Saix's nose that could be used as leverage against the second in command. 

6 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Could be. I always did get the feeling that Xemnas was withholding a bunch of information from Saix in order to keep him in line and ensure he stayed loyal to him.

I remember awhile ago when DDD first came out, some people thought Saix was in on it, given his comment to Xemnas in KHII before his boss fight. But it never added up because his death lines imply he's still looking for his heart, really bringing sympathy for his character. So I always believed Saix was being lied to like most of the others. It'll be interesting to see if Marluxia, Larxene, and Vexen know anything about it.

1 minute ago, SweetYetSalty said:

I remember awhile ago when DDD first came out, some people thought Saix was in on it, given his comment to Xemnas in KHII before his boss fight. But it never added up because his death lines imply he's still looking for his heart, really bringing sympathy for his character. So I always believed Saix was being lied to like most of the others. It'll be interesting to see if Marluxia, Larxene, and Vexen know anything about it.

But I still don't think most of the Organization would fall for a lie like not being able to "re-grow your own heart".  It just seems like sloppy writing that a bunch of Nobodies, some of them being scientists would just go along with believing Xemnas about "not having hearts".  Some of the members such as Larxene couldn't care less about having a heart much less regaining it.

4 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

But I still don't think most of the Organization would fall for a lie like not being able to "re-grow your own heart".  It just seems like sloppy writing that a bunch of Nobodies, some of them being scientists would just go along with believing Xemnas about "not having hearts".  Some of the members such as Larxene couldn't care less about having a heart much less regaining it.

They didn't handle it the reveal the best way, but they kinda have been showing them with real emotions. Most of the Organization reacted to their deaths, and Roxas clearly had emotions in every game he's been in. So had Namine. But yeah, some of them seem really smart and should know they could re-grow hearts. Vexen and Zexion come to mind as they were both very smart. Maybe Xemnas knew that, and tricked Saix into targeting them to rise up in ranks? They were on Axel's hit list, right? Or maybe I'm giving this plot point too much credit LOL.

Edit: Actually the Xemnas part doesn't add up. He said Vexen's death was unexpected and it halted the Replica Program. My bad.

Edited January 25, 20196 yr by SweetYetSalty

5 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

They didn't handle it the reveal the best way, but they kinda have been showing them with real emotions. Most of the Organization reacted to their deaths, and Roxas clearly had emotions in every game he's been in. So had Namine. But yeah, some of them seem really smart and should know they could re-grow hearts. Vexen and Zexion come to mind as they were both very smart. Maybe Xemnas knew that, and tricked Saix into targeting them to rise up in ranks? They were on Axel's hit list, right? Or maybe I'm giving this plot point too much credit LOL.

Axel showed emotions too. In KH2FM just after the Roxas battle, when they're talking on the clock tower, you can see that the tear that fell came from Axel, not Roxas. And even Saix sometimes seemed to have some kind of capacity for emotion.

3 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

Axel showed emotions too. In KH2FM just after the Roxas battle, when they're talking on the clock tower, you can see that the tear that fell came from Axel, not Roxas. And even Saix sometimes seemed to have some kind of capacity for emotion.

Saix did emote vague jealousy quite well. That and all his defeat quotes. The only way you can really sell it if  someone doesn't have a heart is if they are lifeless or just emotionless through everything. So mainly Xemnas, and newborns Roxas and Xion.

13 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

Saix did emote vague jealousy quite well. That and all his defeat quotes. The only way you can really sell it if  someone doesn't have a heart is if they are lifeless or just emotionless through everything. So mainly Xemnas, and newborns Roxas and Xion.

The Organization did explain their emotions as "remembering".

I think Roxas said something along the lines.

Roxas: I am scared!  I don't know what I'd do if I lost you and Xion.

Axel: "Scared"?  We can't feel anything, perhaps you're remembering what it felt like to be scared.

1 minute ago, ienzo628 said:

The Organization did explain their emotions as "remembering".

I think Roxas said something along the lines.

Roxas: I am scared!  I don't know what I'd do if I lost you and Xion.

Axel: "Scared"?  We can't feel anything, perhaps you're remembering what it felt like to be scared.

That's true, but if that is the case, they are the worlds greatest actors. Demyx, Luxord, Larxene, Zexion, and Vexen all had strong emotions when they died. It's difficult to say those guys all had hearts, but because of their "remembering" and putting on these acts it made it easier for me, at least, to believe that Nobodies can feel real emotions.

The thing we have to remember in Kingdom Hearts is that the heart isn’t some “organ”. It’s a place memories are stored (?) it’s a place that emotions come from, and it’s what connects people and helps forms bonds within the series. It’s essentially more of a soul than a thing that keeps people alive. Being told that characters don’t have hearts while their Chain of Memories are still intact is always a bit sketchy. But even still, while Nobodies may start their existence without hearts, the main thing that a heart is, is simply them forging bonds and memories, something the Sea Salt trio did in spades.

1 minute ago, LunaCatte said:

The thing we have to remember in Kingdom Hearts is that the heart isn’t some “organ”. It’s a place memories are stored (?) it’s a place that emotions come from, and it’s what connects people and helps forms bonds within the series. It’s essentially more of a soul than a thing that keeps people alive. Being told that characters don’t have hearts while their Chain of Memories are still intact is always a bit sketchy. But even still, while Nobodies may start their existence without hearts, the main thing that a heart is, is simply them forging bonds and memories, something the Sea Salt trio did in spades.

It seemed to me like the Seasalt trio started developing hearts of their own through their relationships with each other. Roxas and Xion didn't have memories of their past lives, so they were able to connect with each other through that similarity and developed their own individual senses of identity. Axel was a bit different, since he had memories of his time as a human. However, I think his time interacting with Sora in Castle Oblivion awakened how it felt to feel those emotions and they awakened when he came back from CO. Furthermore, I think Axel was able to develop his own heart and emotions through Roxas and Xion after this because he was remembering his past friendship with Isa, and he missed that connection terribly. 

In turn, I think Saix sensed this, which is why he kept trying to convince Axel to keep his distance, constantly warning him that he shouldn't get too attached to them. Saix was frustrated because he felt that Axel was trying to replace their friendship with Roxas and Xion. It seems like the memories of having emotions can actually recover the ability to feel emotions in the first place.

12 minutes ago, LunaCatte said:

The thing we have to remember in Kingdom Hearts is that the heart isn’t some “organ”. It’s a place memories are stored (?) it’s a place that emotions come from, and it’s what connects people and helps forms bonds within the series. It’s essentially more of a soul than a thing that keeps people alive. Being told that characters don’t have hearts while their Chain of Memories are still intact is always a bit sketchy. But even still, while Nobodies may start their existence without hearts, the main thing that a heart is, is simply them forging bonds and memories, something the Sea Salt trio did in spades.

Well said. Hearts do mean much more then just the organ that pumps blood in KH. I believe it's been said that anyone can grow a heart in KH.

6 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

It seemed to me like the Seasalt trio started developing hearts of their own through their relationships with each other. Roxas and Xion didn't have memories of their past lives, so they were able to connect with each other through that similarity and developed their own individual senses of identity. Axel was a bit different, since he had memories of his time as a human. However, I think his time interacting with Sora in Castle Oblivion awakened how it felt to feel those emotions and they awakened when he came back from CO. Furthermore, I think Axel was able to develop his own heart and emotions through Roxas and Xion after this because he was remembering his past friendship with Isa, and he missed that connection terribly. 

In turn, I think Saix sensed this, which is why he kept trying to convince Axel to keep his distance, constantly warning him that he shouldn't get too attached to them. Saix was frustrated because he felt that Axel was trying to replace their friendship with Roxas and Xion. It seems like the memories of having emotions can actually recover the ability to feel emotions in the first place.

Yeah, the power of ice cream and that clock tower. They also interacted with the world more then the others did, but in a more curious kind of way more then just using the world for their own benefits like Xaldin and Xigbar do. Roxas, Axel, and Xion all rubbed off on each other so it's clear to see how they grew hearts. It makes me curious if they could have befriended all the Organization members could they all have grown hearts purely? Could you imagine Larxene eating a bar of ice cream?

19 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

Well said. Hearts do mean much more then just the organ that pumps blood in KH. I believe it's been said that anyone can grow a heart in KH.

Yeah, the power of ice cream and that clock tower. They also interacted with the world more then the others did, but in a more curious kind of way more then just using the world for their own benefits like Xaldin and Xigbar do. Roxas, Axel, and Xion all rubbed off on each other so it's clear to see how they grew hearts. It makes me curious if they could have befriended all the Organization members could they all have grown hearts purely? Could you imagine Larxene eating a bar of ice cream?

She would probably be disgusted by it, lol. I could see Zexion eating ice cream with them, though. And Demyx. Pretty much everyone else would look weird eating ice cream on the clock tower. Even Saix would look weird, although the BH6 trailer showed that scene with him and Lea on the clock tower with the ice cream, so I guess we'll see just how weird that would be.

Also, I think Axel bonded so easily with Roxas because he'd previously formed a friendship with Ventus in BBS. I think that connection bonded him to Roxas, and by extension to Sora and Xion due to their connections to Ventus and Roxas.

12 minutes ago, Allwil13 said:

She would probably be disgusted by it, lol. I could see Zexion eating ice cream with them, though. And Demyx. Pretty much everyone else would look weird eating ice cream on the clock tower. Even Saix would look weird, although the BH6 trailer showed that scene with him and Lea on the clock tower with the ice cream, so I guess we'll see just how weird that would be.

Also, I think Axel bonded so easily with Roxas because he'd previously formed a friendship with Ventus in BBS. I think that connection bonded him to Roxas, and by extension to Sora and Xion due to their connections to Ventus and Roxas.

I really wish Organization XIII had a gag reel. One of them could have been Seasalt Trio trying to convert every member onto the clock tower with ice cream. It would have been priceless. Especially for characters like Saix, Larxene, Xaldin, and Xemnas. I can already hear Larxene screaming that it taste like butt XD

2 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

I really wish Organization XIII had a gag reel. One of them could have been Seasalt Trio trying to convert every member onto the clock tower with ice cream. It would have been priceless. Especially for characters like Saix, Larxene, Xaldin, and Xemnas. I can already hear Larxene screaming that it taste like butt XD

OMG if I could draw I would totally try to draw a series of that! That would be amazing.

 

 

1 hour ago, SweetYetSalty said:

That's true, but if that is the case, they are the worlds greatest actors. Demyx, Luxord, Larxene, Zexion, and Vexen all had strong emotions when they died. It's difficult to say those guys all had hearts, but because of their "remembering" and putting on these acts it made it easier for me, at least, to believe that Nobodies can feel real emotions.

Their reactions could have been caused by their memories.  The mind is a strong entity in of itself.  Have you ever had a dream that felt so real but when you wake up you think that it actually happened?  Feelings are connected to the brain.  And, Sora once asked, "Is any of this for real or not?"

How can we determine that they are actually experiencing emotions and not just having some memories and the feelings associated with it affecting their reaction?