So this has been bugging me for a while. Since the Country of the Musketeers is confirmed to be a separate world from Disney Castle that Mickey, Donald, and Goofy visited, and Minnie was never confirmed to appear in Timeless River, then that would suggest that the Princess Minnie seen in that world would later become the same Queen of Disney Castle with Mickey as King later on (at least that's what the wikis are saying anyway, and at this point it makes sense). That much makes sense to me, however does that mean that the Musketeer Pete seen in this world is the same Pete from Timeless River/Disney Castle, or is he a different entity (a "clone entity" if you will)? While Mickey was likely a King already and perhaps got aid from Merlin to travel across worlds, and Donald and Goofy came along with him, did Pete ever find a way to jump worlds? If so, why would he want to? I suppose he got more nasty over time as he became jealous of Mickey's success, but why would that inspire him to follow Mickey to another world? And how long could he have been there? It's not easy becoming a captain of the Musketeers you know, he had to have been there a long enough time, and Mickey had to not be able to recognize him at all lest he become suspicious of him. I suppose it could explain his motivation for wanting to take the crown from Minnie, probably trying to prove to Mickey that he could become a king too, but again it all comes down to just how did he travel to another world to begin with and how long had he (and Mickey and co. for that matter) have been there? I swear, Pete is like the one missing link for me when it comes to trying to make any sense out of this world. Anybody have any ideas?

I'm pretty sure it's a different Pete; the recurring Pete was already in Timeless River with Mickey and the others, you'll recall. Probably a different Minnie, too; why would she let the guy who tried to kidnap and murder her hang around in Disney Town up until the events of BBS?

 

My guess is Nomura didn't put that much thought into it and just picked a movie that seemed like it would make a good world. And it did, despite second versions of existing characters suddenly appearing in KH canon.

Captain Pete, the CotM Pete, is a past incarnation of the original Pete. He's a dream version of Pete set back in an earlier time period.

Maybe Pete was sent to the Country of Musketeers so he could clean up his act. Maybe he did something after the events of Timeless River, and he had to become a Musketeer to shape up, he then became the captain.

Yes, that's most definitely the same Pete.

They are one and the same. Remember that the storyline of most of the worlds in DDD are entirely past based.

Well, it could be that the events of The Country of Musketeers takes place between BbS and KH. By that time Pete was already working for Maleficent and got the power to travel worlds from her. It could be that Musketeer Mickey heard that Pete was up to something there and set out to stop him... Though that brings up the question of why Minnie was there. OH! Maybe Minnie was there on a diplomatic mission then Pete showed up on a mission for Maleficent and targeted Minnie for revenge. Then Mickey heard Pete was there, figured Minnie was in danger and took Donald and Goofy with him to save her! Maybe...

Edited November 17, 201410 yr by Isamu_Kuno

Yes,

they are.

It IS The Same Pete!!  Just Because Pete Happened To Be In Timeless River As A Steamboat Captain Does NOT Mean He Is Not The Captain Of The Musketeers, Too!!

 

In My Opinion, The Part Where Square-Enix Made A Mistake Was Having Mickey Visit The Country Of The Musketeers While Learning To Be A Keyblade Master.  What About Donald Duck And Goofy?  How Did THEY End Up Becoming Musketeers?

 

It Would Have Made Better Sense For Mickey, Donald Duck, And Goofy To Have Started Out In The Country Of The Musketeers And Then Move To Timeless River, Which Was Just Before Disney Castle Was Built.  If So, Maybe Mickey Would Have Learned What A Keyblade Was While Training To Be A Musketeer.  This Could Have Been What Tetsuya Nomura Was Initially Thinking Before He Decided To Rush-Making "Kingdom Hearts 3D:  DREAM, DROP, DISTANCE".

 

Besides, The "Kingdom Hearts Wikia"(s) Are Not Fully Reliable; I Have Found Several Incorrect Details In It.  It's Better To Play The Games And Put Everything Together On Your OWN Conclusions.

I'm pretty sure it's a different Pete; the recurring Pete was already in Timeless River with Mickey and the others, you'll recall. Probably a different Minnie, too; why would she let the guy who tried to kidnap and murder her hang around in Disney Town up until the events of BBS?

 

My guess is Nomura didn't put that much thought into it and just picked a movie that seemed like it would make a good world. And it did, despite second versions of existing characters suddenly appearing in KH canon.

Except the Pete in Timeless River WAS Pete from Disney Castle/Disney Town! That place was just a past version of what would later become Disney Town/Castle, so all of the characters there are just younger past versions of themselves. Also, since you never see Minnie in Timeless River, it isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibility that she never originated from that world. And in terms of Pete being allowed to hang around for as long as he did, Minnie did say that she forgave him for a lot of the stuff he had done in the past, so really it makes sense if he had committed multiple offenses without prior disciplinary action until BbS.

 

And saying Nomura didn't put ANY sort of thought into this process is like saying that George Lucas made Star Wars just because "Eh, why not?" Nomura is way too much of a master mind to let something like character origins be the one thing he lets fall under the radar. I'm pretty sure it's just something that he'll clarify in a future Ultimania, KH3, or some other future KH game.

Yes, that's most definitely the same Pete.

Ok, then how, why, and what is he doing there in the first place? This seems to be pre-BbS time, so he wouldn't be under orders from Maleficent, and Mickey may know of the Keyblade but doesn't yet wield one (unless he's choosing not to I guess..). So how can Pete be there if this world is separate? Also, what the heck happened to his leg (canonically speaking) and how the heck did he get it back!?

Edited November 21, 201410 yr by Hero of Light XIV

Except the Pete in Timeless River WAS Pete from Disney Castle/Disney Town! That place was just a past version of what would later become Disney Town/Castle, so all of the characters there are just younger past versions of themselves. Also, since you never see Minnie in Timeless River, it isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibility that she never originated from that world. And in terms of Pete being allowed to hang around for as long as he did, Minnie did say that she forgave him for a lot of the stuff he had done in the past, so really it makes sense if he had committed multiple offenses without prior disciplinary action until BbS.

 

And saying Nomura didn't put ANY sort of thought into this process is like saying that George Lucas made Star Wars just because "Eh, why not?" Nomura is way too much of a master mind to let something like character origins be the one thing he lets fall under the radar. I'm pretty sure it's just something that he'll clarify in a future Ultimania, KH3, or some other future KH game.

 

Oh, man, you picked exactly the wrong comparison; George Lucas is well known for making all kinds of shit up in Star Wars that doesn't fit or doesn't make sense just because he wanted to. He basically did make Star Wars because "Eh, why not?"

 

I don't think Nomura's a mastermind, he's been making up the story as it goes along (or do you really think he's had the entire story planned out since KH1?) and things fall through the cracks all the time. They have since KH2, and probably earlier. I'm sure he might clarify later on, but I suspect he didn't think it out from the beginning. He might explain it later like you said, but for now, it's safe to assume it's a different Pete (and that whole peg-leg thing only supports my theory- also, why would Minnie forgive him for kidnapping and attempted murder, but banish him into another dimension for cheating in a contest and being a dick about it? Makes no sense!!)

... *sighs*

 

I pretty much explained this, guys. Come on.

... *sighs*

 

I pretty much explained this, guys. Come on.

 

Your explanation didn't explain much. Dreams and time travel, basically.

Your explanation didn't explain much. Dreams and time travel, basically.

 

But that's all it is. Dreams and time travel.

 

Look, the Pete in CotM, the Pete from Timeless River, and the Pete from BBS and KHII are all the same guy. They are just from time periods. TM Willie came first, then CotM Pete, then the current Pete. That's it.

 

The reason this is because Disney Castle the world , if you think about it, is a world that actually evolves. It evolved from the Timeless River old time-y setting into the current setting that is Disney Castle. Plus, the various areas that we've seen and visited are all apart of a bigger world within. Look at Disney Town in BBS; its possible to see Mickey and Minnie's castle in the background. That means that Disney Castle/Disney Town/TM/CotM are all actually part of one big world, not separate or alternate worlds on their own. Some of them, like TM and CotM, are just areas set at different time periods.

 

Here's how it goes basically, using Mickey's and Pete's roles as guidelines: Timeless River (Mickey isn't King yet; Pete is a steamboat captain) -> CotM (Mickey is doing his training alongside Donald and Goofy, somewhat in secret; Pete is a an evil captain) -> Disney Town and Disney Castle (Mickey is King, receives more training from Yen Sid, while Pete is with the others in Disney Town screwing around as Captain Justice/Dark -> Pete is banished, works under Maleficiant -> Mickey returns to Disney Castle sometime after BBS -> leaves again sometime around KH1)

 

As for the Symphothy of Socercy, I'd said in goes either before or in between CotM and BBS/Disney Town, considering Mickey was messing around with Yen Sid's stuff and not acting right. Before is more likely since it shows how naive he is before recieving Yen Sid's guidance.

But that's all it is. Dreams and time travel.

 

Look, the Pete in CotM, the Pete from Timeless River, and the Pete from BBS and KHII are all the same guy. They are just from time periods. TM Willie came first, then CotM Pete, then the current Pete. That's it.

 

The reason this is because Disney Castle the world , if you think about it, is a world that actually evolves. It evolved from the Timeless River old time-y setting into the current setting that is Disney Castle. Plus, the various areas that we've seen and visited are all apart of a bigger world within. Look at Disney Town in BBS; its possible to see Mickey and Minnie's castle in the background. That means that Disney Castle/Disney Town/TM/CotM are all actually part of one big world, not separate or alternate worlds on their own. Some of them, like TM and CotM, are just areas set at different time periods.

 

Here's how it goes basically, using Mickey's and Pete's roles as guidelines: Timeless River (Mickey isn't King yet; Pete is a steamboat captain) -> CotM (Mickey is doing his training alongside Donald and Goofy, somewhat in secret; Pete is a an evil captain) -> Disney Town and Disney Castle (Mickey is King, receives more training from Yen Sid, while Pete is with the others in Disney Town screwing around as Captain Justice/Dark -> Pete is banished, works under Maleficiant -> Mickey returns to Disney Castle sometime after BBS -> leaves again sometime around KH1)

 

As for the Symphothy of Socercy, I'd said in goes either before or in between CotM and BBS/Disney Town, considering Mickey was messing around with Yen Sid's stuff and not acting right. Before is more likely since it shows how naive he is before recieving Yen Sid's guidance.

 

But that's not an explanation, it's a cop out. It's saying "Look, it happened because it happened, so don't think about it."

 

They pretty definitively established that CotM is a totally different world; Sora says specifically that Disney Castle is not one of the worlds that's asleep (and really, how could it be, only worlds that had at one time fallen to darkness are sleeping). Mickey himself says that he's visiting the world to look into a problem, meaning it's a different world than the one he came from, i.e. Timeless River/Disney Town/Disney Castle. I think it's implied that it takes place some time between Timeless River and when Mickey gets the Keyblade, given that he can't use it then.

 

Point being, it's clearly not the same world, and given that Mickey is the only one that outright says he's from another one, it's reasonable to assume that the Pete (and Donald, Goofy and Minnie) are all just different versions that belong in that world. The fact that Pete is physically different and Donald is a coward who can't use magic support that. But then of course, why do Donald and Goofy there know Mickey, how did Mickey get there, etc., and the answer is almost certainly Nomura and his team didn't think about it or didn't care and just made shit up. I think we're all giving this way more thought than anyone at Square Enix ever did.

Edited November 21, 201410 yr by HeyMouseSayCheese

But that's not an explanation, it's a cop out. It's saying "Look, it happened because it happened, so don't think about it."

 

They pretty definitively established that CotM is a totally different world; Sora says specifically that Disney Castle is not one of the worlds that's asleep (and really, how could it be, only worlds that had at one time fallen to darkness are sleeping). Mickey himself says that he's visiting the world to look into a problem, meaning it's a different world than the one he came from, i.e. Timeless River/Disney Town/Disney Castle. I think it's implied that it takes place some time between Timeless River and when Mickey gets the Keyblade, given that he can't use it then.

 

Point being, it's clearly not the same world, and given that Mickey is the only one that outright says he's from another one, it's reasonable to assume that the Pete (and Donald, Goofy and Minnie) are all just different versions that belong in that world. The fact that Pete is physically different and Donald is a coward who can't use magic support that. But then of course, why do Donald and Goofy there know Mickey, how did Mickey get there, etc., and the answer is almost certainly Nomura and his team didn't think about it or didn't care and just made shit up. I think we're all giving this way more thought than anyone at Square Enix ever did.

 

At least you understand that TM, Disney Town, and Disney Castle are all the same.

 

Also, I'm allowed to give whatever shit any amount of thought I damn well please, thank you very much.  And quite frankly, I find it rude for you to undermine my explanation as a "cop out". If you line up the pieces and use logic, it's really not that complicated. Obviously, the only piece that doesn't fit is CotM, which you explained why it doesn't, and I can agree. But, just because that is, doesn't mean the entire thing is a jumbled mess and you should stop being cynical about it because, frankly, just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean I can't or anybody else can't.

 

But anyways: what can we infer now is: CotM is a different world than Disney Castle and its other pieces and variations. How and why that is will probably be explained later on. My theory on SoS still stands as well.

Edited November 21, 201410 yr by Firaga Sensei

At least you understand that TM, Disney Town, and Disney Castle are all the same.

 

Also, I'm allowed to give whatever shit any amount of thought I damn well please, thank you very much.  And quite frankly, I find it rude for you to undermine my explanation as a "cop out". If you line up the pieces and use logic, it's really not that complicated. Obviously, the only piece that doesn't fit is CotM, which you explained why it doesn't, and I can agree. But, just because that is, doesn't mean the entire thing is a jumbled mess and you should stop being cynical about it because, frankly, just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean I can't or anybody else can't.

 

But anyways: what can we infer now is: CotM is a different world than Disney Castle and its other pieces and variations. How and why that is will probably be explained later on. My theory on SoS still stands as well.

 

I apologize if I came off as rude; I wasn't trying to insult you. I just really can't stand the story in KH sometimes (I am personally of the belief that you'd have to be clinically insane to actually understand what's going on at this point) and the fact that it's falling back on time travel as a narrative crutch is infuriating because i really, really care about Kingdom Hearts and I hate to see it be so, well, shitty. I didn't mean to undermine your opinions or anything, and you're certainly allowed to think what you want about the story; I obviously feel differently than you, is all.

 

And for the record, i agree with you on SoS, it likely takes place between CotM and BBS, given that Mickey's in training and lacks a Keyblade (though that begs the question, how is Mysterious Tower sleeping? When did it fall to darkness?)

Oh, man, you picked exactly the wrong comparison; George Lucas is well known for making all kinds of shit up in Star Wars that doesn't fit or doesn't make sense just because he wanted to. He basically did make Star Wars because "Eh, why not?"

 

I don't think Nomura's a mastermind, he's been making up the story as it goes along (or do you really think he's had the entire story planned out since KH1?) and things fall through the cracks all the time. They have since KH2, and probably earlier. I'm sure he might clarify later on, but I suspect he didn't think it out from the beginning. He might explain it later like you said, but for now, it's safe to assume it's a different Pete (and that whole peg-leg thing only supports my theory- also, why would Minnie forgive him for kidnapping and attempted murder, but banish him into another dimension for cheating in a contest and being a dick about it? Makes no sense!!)

Some of us think differently about Lucas, but whatever. I'm not here to argue about that.

 

And as a matter of fact, NO, I don't think he's had everything planed from the beginning of KH1. He said in his interviews that he just develops things as he goes. BUT, he also said that whenever he was working on one title, by some point in the process he's already thinking about the next one or two titles. By the time he was finishing KH1, he already had a basic idea or concept for CoM and KH2 in mind already, the true building of the story though didn't happen until he actually started working on it. And with Days, Coded, and Birth by Sleep, it's pretty obvious that he had concepts for each of them already in mind with each tease that he gave. Even the idea of Xion, or at least a 14th girl member of the Organization, was thought up of and teased a little bit at one point in KH2 (not by Nomura though), but it wasn't really made into a full idea until they could work on Days (basically because the plot of KH2 was getting complicated enough already, and you can always use scraped ideas in other games). And BbS, Re:Coded, and DDD were all basically big teases for KH3's plot, which Nomura had simultaneously been conceiving and developing over the time that these titles were made. Conceiving the idea of the plot is not the same thing as having it all figured out from the get-go. Nomura never started the series knowing exactly where he wanted it to go from the beginning, but he did start to expand it as he got further and further into the development of each title. It's not like he has to just suddenly come up with the ideas as soon as the next game is released, that would make the process take longer. By the time a title is released he already has a pretty good idea of what he would like to see happen next, and the true development time is used to actually build and structure the story based on those ideas. He isn't a psychic who always knew what was going to happen, but he isn't just an improviser that just suddenly comes up with stuff one at a time, it's a blend. He works on one title at a time, with the ideas of plots for future titles starting to form in his head by the time he is finishing up with the current title.

 

There are one or two things that don't add up, but overall, he does a very good job at making sure things add up in some way or another. The only two examples I can think of where something was never clarified were where Goofy blatantly says that Mickey banished Pete when later on it's actually Minnie who does it (maybe Minnie gave Mickey the credit? I don't know...?), and when according to Nomura, Roxas collapsed in Castle Oblivion because he was getting too close to Sora and his "true self" (ie. Ventus), but it was clearly shown that Sora was taken out of the castle months ago by that point (again, maybe it's just because he was getting too close to Ventus and Sora being out there in the worlds was already doing a number on him as it is). There are a few things like that that "slip between the cracks" as you put it, but otherwise the series is really good at staying consistent with what they tell you, usually it's just a matter of wrapping your head around it and trying to understand it.

 

And given how everything works, I wouldn't be surprised if this WAS the same Pete that we all know and love/hate. There's not enough evidence to suggest otherwise, since knowing this series, any evidence can be so misleading that you literally have to be told whether he's the same guy or not, and that's basically the kind of vibe I'm getting here. Besides, they still haven't established if there can be "world clones" out there, other than Tron and Data-Sora, which makes more sense because they're data, entities that can already be duplicated.

I apologize if I came off as rude; I wasn't trying to insult you. I just really can't stand the story in KH sometimes (I am personally of the belief that you'd have to be clinically insane to actually understand what's going on at this point) and the fact that it's falling back on time travel as a narrative crutch is infuriating because i really, really care about Kingdom Hearts and I hate to see it be so, well, shitty. I didn't mean to undermine your opinions or anything, and you're certainly allowed to think what you want about the story; I obviously feel differently than you, is all.

 

And for the record, i agree with you on SoS, it likely takes place between CotM and BBS, given that Mickey's in training and lacks a Keyblade (though that begs the question, how is Mysterious Tower sleeping? When did it fall to darkness?)

Well I find the "clinically insane" part insulting now, because I find that I can understand the series pretty well. It's like Sensei said, it's not that complicated and messed up, it just requires you to ACTUALLY THINK and PIECE THINGS TOGETHER. And I've never seen time travel as a "narrative crutch" to a series, not when it's explained well. In DDD, they very clearly state what the rules of time travel are and they explain how time travel works in dreams too, it's all there, you just have to get out of the stigma that just because some games did a poor job implementing time travel that it's a cursed book that must never be opened for anything. Doctor Who is all about time travel and that does exceptionally well, and they must have changed their rules about it god knows how many times. To me, the Kingdom Hearts series isn't any worse for bringing time travel into everything, it only makes it more fun to think about and speculate, which is a big part of what I love about the series, the speculation.

 

I understand that it can be hard to decipher when is a good time to look deeply into something and when it just isn't necessary, especially with a series that takes every opportunity it can to completely flip around whatever your expectations and theories were at the time. I guess it's all based upon the judgment of the player, but that being said, I don't think there is much danger in "overly analyzing" things that go on in the Kingdom Hearts series, as there are many things that can be speculated on that if done correctly, can improve your experience with the series. Things like speculating character motivations, the mythos and nature of the worlds, and just how something may or may not have happened are all really great tools, I find, to greater enhance your love for the series, and it works because so much of the series allows for interpretation and filling in the blanks, without it being too careless in how little is told, most of the time.

Edited November 22, 201410 yr by Hero of Light XIV

So this has been bugging me for a while. Since the Country of the Musketeers is confirmed to be a separate world from Disney Castle that Mickey, Donald, and Goofy visited, and Minnie was never confirmed to appear in Timeless River, then that would suggest that the Princess Minnie seen in that world would later become the same Queen of Disney Castle with Mickey as King later on (at least that's what the wikis are saying anyway, and at this point it makes sense). That much makes sense to me, however does that mean that the Musketeer Pete seen in this world is the same Pete from Timeless River/Disney Castle, or is he a different entity (a "clone entity" if you will)? While Mickey was likely a King already and perhaps got aid from Merlin to travel across worlds, and Donald and Goofy came along with him, did Pete ever find a way to jump worlds? If so, why would he want to? I suppose he got more nasty over time as he became jealous of Mickey's success, but why would that inspire him to follow Mickey to another world? And how long could he have been there? It's not easy becoming a captain of the Musketeers you know, he had to have been there a long enough time, and Mickey had to not be able to recognize him at all lest he become suspicious of him. I suppose it could explain his motivation for wanting to take the crown from Minnie, probably trying to prove to Mickey that he could become a king too, but again it all comes down to just how did he travel to another world to begin with and how long had he (and Mickey and co. for that matter) have been there? I swear, Pete is like the one missing link for me when it comes to trying to make any sense out of this world. Anybody have any ideas?

 

Pete from The Country Of The Musketeers is not the same Pete as the other one just like Mickey was not the same Mickey. 

Pete from The Country Of The Musketeers is not the same Pete as the other one just like Mickey was not the same Mickey. 

But that WAS the same Mickey.

But that WAS the same Mickey.

No because Mickey was still at Master Yen Sid's Tower!

No because Mickey was still at Master Yen Sid's Tower!

No, they literally stated in-game that this was Mickey from before Sora met him, and since Mickey knows of the keyblade but doesn't wield one himself, this was BEFORE he ever trained with Master Yen Sid.

 

And what do you mean "he was still at Master Yen Sid's Tower" exactly? Do you mean when Mickey was still an apprentice, or in the real world watching over Sora and Riku's bodies? Because both Mickey's from Country of the Musketeers and Symphony of Sorcery were dream versions of Mickey, but they each come from a point in Mickey's past. So yes, they are "different" Mickey's than the "present" one that exists in the real world, but they are the same Mickey, just from different points in time, brought back as dreams. There is nothing to suggest that there are other-world counterparts of Mickey so far, just younger past versions of himself.

No, they literally stated in-game that this was Mickey from before Sora met him, and since Mickey knows of the keyblade but doesn't wield one himself, this was BEFORE he ever trained with Master Yen Sid.

 

And what do you mean "he was still at Master Yen Sid's Tower" exactly? Do you mean when Mickey was still an apprentice, or in the real world watching over Sora and Riku's bodies? Because both Mickey's from Country of the Musketeers and Symphony of Sorcery were dream versions of Mickey, but they each come from a point in Mickey's past. So yes, they are "different" Mickey's than the "present" one that exists in the real world, but they are the same Mickey, just from different points in time, brought back as dreams. There is nothing to suggest that there are other-world counterparts of Mickey so far, just younger past versions of himself.

OK! So that would mean that that is actually Pete it's just a past version of him.

 

Btw, You made a very good point! 

OK! So that would mean that that is actually Pete it's just a past version of him.

 

Btw, You made a very good point! 

Thanks, I'm just confused about Pete because while I feel that by all logic it should be the same guy, they haven't gone into enough depth and detail to explain how and why. Hope they do that soon in a future title.

Thanks, I'm just confused about Pete because while I feel that by all logic it should be the same guy, they haven't gone into enough depth and detail to explain how and why. Hope they do that soon in a future title.

Yeah I get you!