Greetings Kingdom hearts Forum it has been a while since I made a Thread myself.(no surprise I am almost done with my apprenticeship and there is a final test so I have put all my Hobbys on hold for a while)

 

Anyway lets get down to buisness, I was playing Kh1.5 the other day and I was in the last part of the end of the world where sora and pals fight the devil or chernabog if you go by the official name. Anyway all of you probably know the one room that comes right before the fight with him the one that you can only visit once and has a book in it. If you read it commands the heartless to search a devour all hearts until the time has come to destroy light alltogether and this got me thinking.

 

See there is a very interesting difference between what the books says in english and in german.In german there is one line that exists that isnt in the english version and it says "oh you children of darkness born from me" How this me?

 

In america the translation of japanese work trys to make it fit american culture or to make it funny(if its an anime for kids) in places where it isnt even meant to, I am thinking digimon here. while german translation trys to get the Meaning of what is said across. 

 

why is this important? Because this book appears right before the fight against the devil and remember were it was located in a fire pit! kind of like his living room.

 

But this is not just an obscure theory I have a couple pieces of evidence more. For instance chernabog in the original draft was supposed to be the final boss, which makes sense since Devil= Prince of darkness and all. And what about the heartless?

 

we know the heartless a born from Pure darkness and their goal is to extinguish all light or as the book says "take every heart until the end" which basically means corrupt the universe as much as possible until armagadon hits. Sounds pretty much like the servants of the all evil one to me.

 

In BBS right before maleficent attacks us she says her infamous line " now you are dealing with me and all the forces of HELL" and the prince has a shield with a cross on it not to mention the cathedral in notre dame meaning christianity exists in the KH universe. And even if not its a universal accepted fact in all worlds that both light and darkness are living beings/things with a consciousness this is a very spiritual universe.

 

And my final clue is from the manga. When sora, goofy and donald speculate where the heartless come from goofy even suggests that they are made by the devil.

 

NOTE: I am talking about the pure blood heartless not the one made by Xehanort during his time with ansem

 

I am aware that I am probably just obsessively overanalyzing the whole thing (as nerds like me do) and that the truth is Probably much simpler namely that Chernabog was in the final level because he survived the heartless attack on his world because of his pure evil nature. But hey were would a fandom be without its theorys

 

 

Greetings Kingdom hearts Forum it has been a while since I made a Thread myself.(no surprise I am almost done with my apprenticeship and there is a final test so I have put all my Hobbys on hold for a while)

 

Anyway lets get down to buisness, I was playing Kh1.5 the other day and I was in the last part of the end of the world where sora and pals fight the devil or chernabog if you go by the official name. Anyway all of you probably know the one room that comes right before the fight with him the one that you can only visit once and has a book in it. If you read it commands the heartless to search a devour all hearts until the time has come to destroy light alltogether and this got me thinking.

 

See there is a very interesting difference between what the books says in english and in german.In german there is one line that exists that isnt in the english version and it says "oh you children of darkness born from me" How this me?

 

In america the translation of japanese work trys to make it fit american culture or to make it funny(if its an anime for kids) in places where it isnt even meant to, I am thinking digimon here. while german translation trys to get the Meaning of what is said across. 

 

why is this important? Because this book appears right before the fight against the devil and remember were it was located in a fire pit! kind of like his living room.

 

But this is not just an obscure theory I have a couple pieces of evidence more. For instance chernabog in the original draft was supposed to be the final boss, which makes sense since Devil= Prince of darkness and all. And what about the heartless?

 

we know the heartless a born from Pure darkness and their goal is to extinguish all light or as the book says "take every heart until the end" which basically means corrupt the universe as much as possible until armagadon hits. Sounds pretty much like the servants of the all evil one to me.

 

In BBS right before maleficent attacks us she says her infamous line " now you are dealing with me and all the forces of HELL" and the prince has a shield with a cross on it not to mention the cathedral in notre dame meaning christianity exists in the KH universe. And even if not its a universal accepted fact in all worlds that both light and darkness are living beings/things with a consciousness this is a very spiritual universe.

 

And my final clue is from the manga. When sora, goofy and donald speculate where the heartless come from goofy even suggests that they are made by the devil.

 

NOTE: I am talking about the pure blood heartless not the one made by Xehanort during his time with ansem

 

I am aware that I am probably just obsessively overanalyzing the whole thing (as nerds like me do) and that the truth is Probably much simpler namely that Chernabog was in the final level because he survived the heartless attack on his world because of his pure evil nature. But hey were would a fandom be without its theorys

Yes, fandoms are fandoms, and thus, they will have theories, no arguments there.

 

Buuuuuuuut yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you on the theory itself. For one thing, I understand interpreting the meaning of a part of the series in your preferred language, but you have to keep in mind that this was made for Japan first, their meaning is likely the meaning that should be considered most canon, even if the American and other versions might change some words around from time to time, though they still mostly stick to the same context. Just because one version makes an addition (or more likely has replaced a particular already existing line with an altered interpretation, lines aren't usually added when dubbing unless it gets the same meaning across, not changes it altogether). Second, there's some inconsistencies to what you've said. For one thing, Chernabog only existed within the Sorcery of Symphony, the fantasy world that was created from Mickey's dreams that the Sorcerer's hat gave him. Perhaps it still had the power to be as real as the rest of Mysterious Tower since the hat was magic and everything, but the point is that the character itself only ever existed in that world, there's nothing to suggest that he's from the world in it's original state in Unchained X. And while certain references to Christianity exist, it's only from the Disney movies that made use of them, and even then KH has gone out of it's way to tone them down a bit so they don't distract from it's actual explicit lore (plus, Disney really tries to keep it's hands off of actual Christianity stuff these days, with a few exceptions here and there like Hunchback and mostly anything Christmas related, and even then it's the more modern commercialized Christmas anyway). Yeah Maleficent references hell, but it was used for a stylistic and dramatic flare in Sleeping Beauty and it's used for the same reason in KH.

 

And lastly, where in ANY point in the manga has Goofy ever suggested that the Heartless came "from the Devil"? That has never been stated in the manga, unless you're referring to another German translation again, but if that's the case then it's just the same issue of re-interpreting while translating across two different language sources. It's not what Nomura or anyone in Square or Disney intended with writing the series, it's just how one publisher or translator felt like interpreting it when adapting it to another language, I wouldn't look at it as seriously canon. It makes sense to draw parallels between the forces of Darkness and the concept of the Devil and Evil as a whole, but I wouldn't ever seriously consider them to be one and the same thing within the KH series, that's just taking it a bit too far. Especially when you consider that Darkness is revealed to not be inherently evil, Riku uses his Darkness for the forces of good and it's an essential part of the balance and every single person's heart. Evil and sin in Christianity is portrayed as an inherently corruptive force that can never be used towards true "good" and must be purged entirely, and while KH2 teases the idea that if everyone's hearts' was purged of Darkness, the Heartless would cease to exist, the tragic irony is that there MUST be Darkness in their hearts, otherwise they are incomplete, unbalanced, and have too much light in them. Mickey's whole message is that "you can't have one without the other, it's a part of everything", Christianity isn't exactly about trying to redeem the Devil and make him a force for good, it's pretty stark black and white who the good guys and bad guys are supposed to be, KH is a bit more grey than that. The only ties to evil Darkness has is that it's nature allows it to be a shortcut to power, so mostly evil people are attracted to it's power and relying too much on it costs them their hearts, and the Heartless themselves are more like instinct-driven animals than consciously sinister forces organized under a monolithic demon, they only go after hearts because that is how they survive, multiply, and continue their overall existence. There can be parallels drawn, but in the end there's just too much different between these two concepts for them to truly be one and the same thing in the context of Kingdom Hearts.

 

Also, it'd be really contradicting to have a universe where Christianity's idea of Hell would exist while simultaneously having the Greek Underworld and Hades exist, you can't have two "real" Hells and Devils, so it makes more sense that there is no universal "Hell" or "Devil" and that each world simply follows it's own rules. Some have a semblance of Christianity, some have a semblance of other religions or cultural belief systems, and others just don't give any indication of one thing or the other, they each have their own nature so they each work in their own ways. One would have a God and Devil, another would have a Zeus and Hades, and so on. So since there is no "true Devil", the Heartless aren't tied to him in any way.

 

So in short, your last assertion is more likely the case than anything else, that Chernabog is simply there because he survived his world's destruction and as a force of pure evil is naturally attracted to the dark world of End of The World. I doubt he was directly cooperating with Ansem, but he likely recognized that whatever was happening with the Heartless would spread more destruction and chaos across the worlds and that letting the Keyblade bearer get past that point would put an end to that, so he tried to stop Sora from bringing an end to all of the entertaining carnage the Heartless and Ansem were displaying for him.

Edited April 23, 20178 yr by Hero of Light XIV

Yes, fandoms are fandoms, and thus, they will have theories, no arguments there.

 

Buuuuuuuut yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you on the theory itself. For one thing, I understand interpreting the meaning of a part of the series in your preferred language, but you have to keep in mind that this was made for Japan first, their meaning is likely the meaning that should be considered most canon, even if the American and other versions might change some words around from time to time, though they still mostly stick to the same context. Just because one version makes an addition (or more likely has replaced a particular already existing line with an altered interpretation, lines aren't usually added when dubbing unless it gets the same meaning across, not changes it altogether). Second, there's some inconsistencies to what you've said. For one thing, Chernabog only existed within the Sorcery of Symphony, the fantasy world that was created from Mickey's dreams that the Sorcerer's hat gave him. Perhaps it still had the power to be as real as the rest of Mysterious Tower since the hat was magic and everything, but the point is that the character itself only ever existed in that world, there's nothing to suggest that he's from the world in it's original state in Unchained X. And while certain references to Christianity exist, it's only from the Disney movies that made use of them, and even then KH has gone out of it's way to tone them down a bit so they don't distract from it's actual explicit lore (plus, Disney really tries to keep it's hands off of actual Christianity stuff these days, with a few exceptions here and there like Hunchback and mostly anything Christmas related, and even then it's the more modern commercialized Christmas anyway). Yeah Maleficent references hell, but it was used for a stylistic and dramatic flare in Sleeping Beauty and it's used for the same reason in KH.

 

And lastly, where in ANY point in the manga has Goofy ever suggested that the Heartless came "from the Devil"? That has never been stated in the manga, unless you're referring to another German translation again, but if that's the case then it's just the same issue of re-interpreting while translating across two different language sources. It's not what Nomura or anyone in Square or Disney intended with writing the series, it's just how one publisher or translator felt like interpreting it when adapting it to another language, I wouldn't look at it as seriously canon. It makes sense to draw parallels between the forces of Darkness and the concept of the Devil and Evil as a whole, but I wouldn't ever seriously consider them to be one and the same thing within the KH series, that's just taking it a bit too far. Especially when you consider that Darkness is revealed to not be inherently evil, Riku uses his Darkness for the forces of good and it's an essential part of the balance and every single person's heart. Evil and sin in Christianity is portrayed as an inherently corruptive force that can never be used towards true "good" and must be purged entirely, and while KH2 teases the idea that if everyone's hearts' was purged of Darkness, the Heartless would cease to exist, the tragic irony is that there MUST be Darkness in their hearts, otherwise they are incomplete, unbalanced, and have too much light in them. Mickey's whole message is that "you can't have one without the other, it's a part of everything", Christianity isn't exactly about trying to redeem the Devil and make him a force for good, it's pretty stark black and white who the good guys and bad guys are supposed to be, KH is a bit more grey than that. The only ties to evil Darkness has is that it's nature allows it to be a shortcut to power, so mostly evil people are attracted to it's power and relying too much on it costs them their hearts, and the Heartless themselves are more like instinct-driven animals than consciously sinister forces organized under a monolithic demon, they only go after hearts because that is how they survive, multiply, and continue their overall existence. There can be parallels drawn, but in the end there's just too much different between these two concepts for them to truly be one and the same thing in the context of Kingdom Hearts.

 

Also, it'd be really contradicting to have a universe where Christianity's idea of Hell would exist while simultaneously having the Greek Underworld and Hades exist, you can't have two "real" Hells and Devils, so it makes more sense that there is no universal "Hell" or "Devil" and that each world simply follows it's own rules. Some have a semblance of Christianity, some have a semblance of other religions or cultural belief systems, and others just don't give any indication of one thing or the other, they each have their own nature so they each work in their own ways. One would have a God and Devil, another would have a Zeus and Hades, and so on. So since there is no "true Devil", the Heartless aren't tied to him in any way.

 

So in short, your last assertion is more likely the case than anything else, that Chernabog is simply there because he survived his world's destruction and as a force of pure evil is naturally attracted to the dark world of End of The World. I doubt he was directly cooperating with Ansem, but he likely recognized that whatever was happening with the Heartless would spread more destruction and chaos across the worlds and that letting the Keyblade bearer get past that point would put an end to that, so he tried to stop Sora from bringing an end to all of the entertaining carnage the Heartless and Ansem were displaying for him.

Thank you for your reply yes probably that was just another translation thing in the manga. You make good arguments and as i said it was just a thought i had that i wanted to discuss with others. I wasnt even convinced myself to be honest. Thanks for the input

I am aware that I am probably just obsessively overanalyzing the whole thing

If you ask me, you are. As a KH nerd, you have a fandom that's perfectly healthy. With that said, I think this is not it at all. Darkness and light coexist. They used to be separated, but then negative emotions allowed darkness to infringe on the light.

think you're looking too much into this tbh

 

anytime you see some religious symbol in this series it's more likely there as nothing more than a prop. it's not there as a hidden meaning or an implied religious connection. if it was in the original Disney movie then it's likely to be carried over in the game simply for the fact that it was in the Disney movie in the first place. whatever meaning the symbol had in the movie does not translate to the game because the Disney worlds are basically interactive dioramas for players to travel through. the movies are adapted into the game and watered down for the enjoyment of the player.

 

it's possible that at one point in early development for the game that Chernabog was going to be the source of the heartless, seeing as he might have been the final boss, but since that's not the game we got i think it's safe to assume that as the series currently stands, the heartless did not spawn from him. 

Sooooo basically the plot of a Shin Megami Tensei game where Lucifer creates his army of demons to fight god

 

For a series like Kingdom Hearts to include blatant religious themes is something that won't set well with Disney let alone the general public who'd buy these E-rated games for their kids

 

 

The only thing referencing Lucifer that can happen in KH games is having the Master of Master's true name be Lucifer but other than that......no 

 

This theory just doesn't work

The only thing referencing Lucifer that can happen in KH games is having the Master of Master's true name be Lucifer but other than that......no

 

Didn't BBS already have that cat from Cinderella?

Didn't BBS already have that cat from Cinderella?

Well that's been the name of the cat in the movies too but that's about the least offensive way to reference the devil without sayinf Satan

Yeah, I don't get on board with this.

 

However, it does make me think about the alternate timeline where Chernabog was kept in as the final villain the first game and how everything would tie together from that one main point alone. I wonder if the Toy Story world would have been kept in too.

This is a wildly interesting theory, but no, Chernabog isn't explicitly the devil. He's just a being of pure darkness that just happened to be in the End Of The World, ya know? The Heartless have existed long before Chernabog, and they've always been the darkness that dwells within the hearts of people, so by extension, that means they've been around for ages upon ages! Unlike Nobodies, Heartless are primal beings with no intelligence whatsoever. They rely on instinct, ya know?

See there is a very interesting difference between what the books says in english and in german.In german there is one line that exists that isnt in the english version and it says "oh you children of darkness born from me" How this me?

 

An iffy translation isn't proof of anything. Apprentice Xehanort/Ansem, Seeker of Darkness wrote that. It was most likely talking about how he created Emblem Heartless and started the mass overpopulation of Pureblood Heartless.

 

NOTE: I am talking about the pure blood heartless not the one made by Xehanort during his time with ansem

 

We already know how Pureblood Heartless are created, and it's not the Devil. Pureblood Heartless are what you turn into when you succumb to the darkness and they are what you can create from the darkness in your heart. They are the darkness from the heart turned sentient (except not really since they can't feel things and only act on instinct lol).

 

But yeah, Pureblood Heartless are what people turn into when they allow the darkness of their heart to take over and consume and corrupt their heart. They aren't spawned from the Devil or from Chernabog.

 

I will admit though, I do find the naming of Demon Tower and Demon Tide strange and interesting. Especially since their Japanese names translate more to "Devil's Tower" and "Devil's Wave". I think it's most likely just something Nomura thought sounded cool though.