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KH Fighting Style Analysis (Or 'Why DDD is a Step in the Wrong Direction')

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Huh. This is really well-written, so kudos to you. But I kinda disagree with your points on KH3D.

 

Sora and Riku were both meant to start with a 'clean slate', I.E. Starting over COMPLETELY. This explains Sora's laggy attacks. But I'm confused- what do you mean by "he regained his KH1 form in in all ways, besides new combos"? I don't understand what you're trying to get across here, if you could rephrase that, it would be great.

 

I also disagree about Riku. His standard combo is the same as it was in CoM, and didn't remind me of Sora's at all. sure, his dodge roll became a little more similar, but he did gain dark roll near the end, which shows more of his style, and also reminds me a bit of Terra's basic dash. I kinda agree a little with your point on his jumping ability, but I wanna remind you that he gained Doubleflight and Sora didn't.

 

But again, other than that, great job. This is an excellent analysis of the characters and their attacks.

  • Author

Huh. This is really well-written, so kudos to you. But I kinda disagree with your points on KH3D.

 

Sora and Riku were both meant to start with a 'clean slate', I.E. Starting over COMPLETELY. This explains Sora's laggy attacks. But I'm confused- what do you mean by "he regained his KH1 form in in all ways, besides new combos"? I don't understand what you're trying to get across here, if you could rephrase that, it would be great.

 

I also disagree about Riku. His standard combo is the same as it was in CoM, and didn't remind me of Sora's at all. sure, his dodge roll became a little more similar, but he did gain dark roll near the end, which shows more of his style, and also reminds me a bit of Terra's basic dash. I kinda agree a little with your point on his jumping ability, but I wanna remind you that he gained Doubleflight and Sora didn't.

 

But again, other than that, great job. This is an excellent analysis of the characters and their attacks.

 

DDD Sora doesn't reuse KH1 Sora's combos, they are new ones that are designed to have new lag where there was none, while pretending to be as responsive as KH2. It's an overall theme of DDD;flashy moves that LOOK like they should function a certain way, but end up putting your character at a disadvantage.

Riku's combo isn't the same. His opening slash is much slower, in order to make it like Sora

See, the clean slate thing would work if Sora reverted to his KH1 form and gained back equivalent power, but instead he is functionally worse than before, as KH1 sora served a function, and KH2 was a logical next step. DDD takes the worst of both, by having laggy, lengthy attacks, yet punishing you for using those attacks

*whistles* I've never looked at it that way. I kinda feel disappointed in sora now...

Interesting. I never thought of it this way.

DDD Sora doesn't reuse KH1 Sora's combos, they are new ones that are designed to have new lag where there was none, while pretending to be as responsive as KH2. It's an overall theme of DDD;flashy moves that LOOK like they should function a certain way, but end up putting your character at a disadvantage.

Riku's combo isn't the same. His opening slash is much slower, in order to make it like Sora

See, the clean slate thing would work if Sora reverted to his KH1 form and gained back equivalent power, but instead he is functionally worse than before, as KH1 sora served a function, and KH2 was a logical next step. DDD takes the worst of both, by having laggy, lengthy attacks, yet punishing you for using those attacks

 

Hm. I'll give you that their basic combos are *slightly* slower, but Sora's stab attack has noticeably more range and distance-closing-speed than his KH1 stab, I think. I agree somewhat about the laggy attacks, mostly the spark/ra/ga series (which was way too slow and underpowered in the case of spark) and Balloonra. Other 'laggy' attacks seemed to ramp up the damage or effectiveness, if you were willing to take the risk, like Meteor Crash. And some ofthese attacks were programmed primarily so that they could be activated in the air (unlike BBS, notice Sora's arial Ars Arcanum?), thus offering you a higher chance of dodging the hellish storm that was probably going on below you while your attack charges.

In general I agree, and the games definitely do an excellent job of showing the growth and skill of the character in their fighting stances, but I think the step back was intentional, this is a representation of a younger Sora, one who displays less experience and overconfidence, in each game the pressure to bring closure sooner increased, in Kingdom Hearts he's clueless basically until he reaches Hollow Bastion, in Chain of Memories right off the bat he encounters our villans, but it isn't until he "remembers" Naminé that he has to treat the problem seriously, and in KHII he learns of the Organization's threat incredibly quickly, and can't waste time or effort showing off. In 3Ds this isn't the case, he thinks he has to unlock Keyholes (effortless) fight some weak creatures of darkness, and the occasional boss. He can be excessive because it's fun, and he doesn't see any consequences.

  • Author

Hm. I'll give you that their basic combos are *slightly* slower, but Sora's stab attack has noticeably more range and distance-closing-speed than his KH1 stab, I think. I agree somewhat about the laggy attacks, mostly the spark/ra/ga series (which was way too slow and underpowered in the case of spark) and Balloonra. Other 'laggy' attacks seemed to ramp up the damage or effectiveness, if you were willing to take the risk, like Meteor Crash. And some ofthese attacks were programmed primarily so that they could be activated in the air (unlike BBS, notice Sora's arial Ars Arcanum?), thus offering you a higher chance of dodging the hellish storm that was probably going on below you while your attack charges.

 

That's the problem. His attacks DO finish faster, KH2 style, but they have stylized lag built around punishing the player built into everything, unlike KH2, and you rarely get invincibility frames, unlike KH2. KH1's attacks were slow and methodical, so using them at the wrong time would lead to punishment... but DDD uses the lag to punish you for moves you have no means of seeing, as they can start and finish in the middle of one of your laggy attacks.

In general I agree, and the games definitely do an excellent job of showing the growth and skill of the character in their fighting stances, but I think the step back was intentional, this is a representation of a younger Sora, one who displays less experience and overconfidence, in each game the pressure to bring closure sooner increased, in Kingdom Hearts he's clueless basically until he reaches Hollow Bastion, in Chain of Memories right off the bat he encounters our villans, but it isn't until he "remembers" Naminé that he has to treat the problem seriously, and in KHII he learns of the Organization's threat incredibly quickly, and can't waste time or effort showing off. In 3Ds this isn't the case, he thinks he has to unlock Keyholes (effortless) fight some weak creatures of darkness, and the occasional boss. He can be excessive because it's fun, and he doesn't see any consequences.

 

See, DDD is a step down from KH1 Sora. It's ridiculously punishable, yet tries to pretend it's not, where KH1 was very functional.

See, Sora's style doesn't grow IN-GAME, per say. He'll still have the same basic combos until the next game, so saying he gets serious around the end it really doesn't mean much because the gameplay doesn't suddenly change to show it (Though that would be cool)

Nice one. o.o How'd long have you been mulling this over?

 

I haven't played DDD yet, but I think someone (might've been you, actually) mentioned before that the game had flashy moves and the lag made things dangerous. I was honestly more interested in how you pointed out how their personalities corresponded to their styles. I was more or less aware of some of them, like TAV's, but for the likes of Eraqus, Xehanort, and especially Sora and Riku, it was nice to have it spelled out for me. With me planning to write KH fics, this will come in handy. I'm totally taking credit for it all, btw.

 

Just a minor nitpick, but how come you didn't do dual-wielding Roxas? That guy's a beast.

  • Author

Just a minor nitpick, but how come you didn't do dual-wielding Roxas? That guy's a beast.

 

I honestly couldn't think of anything to say about it, besides that it was essentially what Valor Form would be if it were in KH1

That's the problem. His attacks DO finish faster, KH2 style, but they have stylized lag built around punishing the player built into everything, unlike KH2, and you rarely get invincibility frames, unlike KH2. KH1's attacks were slow and methodical, so using them at the wrong time would lead to punishment... but DDD uses the lag to punish you for moves you have no means of seeing, as they can start and finish in the middle of one of your laggy attacks.

I can definitely understand about the 'moves you have no means of seeing' part. some random KO Kabuto can just snipe you from halfway across the stage, and in Critical mode, that chips off a good 3/4 of your HP, if not all of it. That does get pretty annoying. So yeah, I agree with most of the stuff you're saying, but I still don't think it's a step down in terms of how well it shows the personality of the character.
  • Author

I can definitely understand about the 'moves you have no means of seeing' part. some random KO Kabuto can just snipe you from halfway across the stage, and in Critical mode, that chips off a good 3/4 of your HP, if not all of it. That does get pretty annoying. So yeah, I agree with most of the stuff you're saying, but I still don't think it's a step down in terms of how well it shows the personality of the character.

 

Ah. See, this is a general analysis. DDD is a step backward in terms of how it portrays Sora's SKILLS. As a person, it still represents Sora as well as it did in KH1, with the added sleekness showing shades of KH2 Sora's mind.

Ah. See, this is a general analysis. DDD is a step backward in terms of how it portrays Sora's SKILLS. As a person, it still represents Sora as well as it did in KH1, with the added sleekness showing shades of KH2 Sora's mind.

 

Oh, ok. Yeah, I can completely agree with that; good analysis man.

I'm just blown away by how insightful and well written that was. Woah.

 

I haven't played DDD (and probably never will, unfortunately) but I can see reasons for them going back for a more kh1 style due to the clean slate thing...I'm sure in the next game, Sora will be a lot more functional. I'm sad I can't comment on what kind of commands were there compared to BBS, but the commands may be a reason that, gameplay wise, they were okay with keeping Sora around a kh1 or so fighting style.

 

And on a random note, playing kh1 expert mode after playing as TAV in BBS was a huge leap >.> Sora is so bad in that first game...but like you said, they've done a really good job of evolving gameplay not just as improving the game and making it more fun, but as a way to demonstrate different skill levels easily. Also sort of random, I've always loved Aqua's pose...she can fight well, but she just preferes magic and avoidance, and it definately works for the keyblade master!^^

See, DDD is a step down from KH1 Sora. It's ridiculously punishable, yet tries to pretend it's not, where KH1 was very functional.

See, Sora's style doesn't grow IN-GAME, per say. He'll still have the same basic combos until the next game, so saying he gets serious around the end it really doesn't mean much because the gameplay doesn't suddenly change to show it (Though that would be cool)

 

Sora in KH I is overconfident due to his childish mentality, while 3Ds Sora is overconfident due to having saved the worlds twice, and defeating SoD and Xemnas. Before he starts the MoM exam he expresses his overconfidence, he doesn't think he'll have trouble with Xehanort. So now he just sees himself wandering through worlds fighting no-risk opponents looking for a Keyhole that will convince Yen Sid of what he already believes. KH Sora wants to visit as many worlds as possible to find his friends and save them, 3Ds Sora wants to wander around until he can do something he thinks exciting. By the time exciting things happen it's too late, he's trapped.

  • Author

Sora in KH I is overconfident due to his childish mentality, while 3Ds Sora is overconfident due to having saved the worlds twice, and defeating SoD and Xemnas. Before he starts the MoM exam he expresses his overconfidence, he doesn't think he'll have trouble with Xehanort. So now he just sees himself wandering through worlds fighting no-risk opponents looking for a Keyhole that will convince Yen Sid of what he already believes. KH Sora wants to visit as many worlds as possible to find his friends and save them, 3Ds Sora wants to wander around until he can do something he thinks exciting. By the time exciting things happen it's too late, he's trapped.

 

DDD Sora isn't as overconfident as people portray him, and KH1 Sora isn't overconfident at all.

Sora expresses incredulity at being asked to give up all of his power and being forced to take a test in order to gain a title, after saving the worlds twice but that is entirely reasonable.

Similarly, he doesn't ever imply that he would be able to take on Xehanort easily... he just thinks the test isn't a particularly good way to go about it (And I should note that he was RIGHT. Xehanort's plan hinged on Sora taking the test)

DDD Sora doesn't reuse KH1 Sora's combos, they are new ones that are designed to have new lag where there was none, while pretending to be as responsive as KH2. It's an overall theme of DDD;flashy moves that LOOK like they should function a certain way, but end up putting your character at a disadvantage.

Riku's combo isn't the same. His opening slash is much slower, in order to make it like Sora

See, the clean slate thing would work if Sora reverted to his KH1 form and gained back equivalent power, but instead he is functionally worse than before, as KH1 sora served a function, and KH2 was a logical next step. DDD takes the worst of both, by having laggy, lengthy attacks, yet punishing you for using those attacks

 

Yo I think they wanted to take the button mashing away thats why they took his combos away for more favorable lengthy attacks and given the command deck he regains some of his strength but I think your concern is more towards the gameplay its self kingdom hearts 2 wasnt as rich as it could of been so they took all those flashy combos away and gave sora a command deck and flow motion he really took a step back to improve the gameplay not because they accidentally made him weaker and more laggy.

Edited by KingdomHearts123456

DDD Sora isn't as overconfident as people portray him, and KH1 Sora isn't overconfident at all.

Sora expresses incredulity at being asked to give up all of his power and being forced to take a test in order to gain a title, after saving the worlds twice but that is entirely reasonable.

Similarly, he doesn't ever imply that he would be able to take on Xehanort easily... he just thinks the test isn't a particularly good way to go about it (And I should note that he was RIGHT. Xehanort's plan hinged on Sora taking the test)

 

"Even without taking it no one can beat me." Sora, on the Mark of Mastery exam

  • Author

"Even without taking it no one can beat me." Sora, on the Mark of Mastery exam

 

"Me, Riku and the king, we can take on anything" That's the actual quote. In other words, "My friends are my power"

The quote YOU'RE talking about is from an unofficial translation of a Japanese trailer

Yo I think they wanted to take the button mashing away thats why they took his combos away for more favorable lengthy attacks and given the command deck he regains some of his strength but I think your concern is more towards the gameplay its self kingdom hearts 2 wasnt as rich as it could of been so they took all those flashy combos away and gave sora a command deck and flow motion he really took a step back to improve the gameplay not because they accidentally made him weaker and more laggy.

 

It could easily have been the intention, but DDD is still more of a button masher than KH1. In fact, it holds on to traits from KH2 to give the player the implication they can button mash, however, EVERY attack has been lagged so much that an enemy can begin and end an attack in the middle of your own

"Even without taking it no one can beat me." Sora, on the Mark of Mastery exam

 

What hatok said, and I also think that's more of a reaction to the idea of getting his memories messed with YET AGAIN. I'd be rather tired of people constantly making me forget how to fight lol. And once he hears how Riku feels, he agrees to take it with him easily enough.

Maybe Nomura wants to make Riku the new Sora. ;p

Edited by heyitsdeven

Maybe Nomura wants to make Riku the new Sora. ;p

 

thats what Nomuras trying to do
  • Author

Maybe Nomura wants to make Riku the new Sora. ;p

 

You're not far off. Consider how DDD is, when it comes down to it, RIKU'S game,he fights the final boss, he saves Sora, he becomes and master. Making him more like Sora was probably a means of making him more comfortable to play, as he had become the main character of that game

"Me, Riku and the king, we can take on anything" That's the actual quote. In other words, "My friends are my power"

The quote YOU'RE talking about is from an unofficial translation of a Japanese trailer

 

Completely true, I was unable to access the game any the audio on my computer is broken. But the Official quote still displays overconfidence, not as much since he's relying on the King and Riku too, but he's not doubting his abilities in 3Ds, it's a test he's sure he'll ace (first time I'm sure)

Wow very nice! Hatok do you dislike DDD? I have seen alot of your posts and it seems like you don't like it very much

  • Author

Wow very nice! Hatok do you dislike DDD? I have seen alot of your posts and it seems like you don't like it very much

 

I'm a balancing act. I counter positive with negative, and vice versa.

I quite enjoyed DDD, but it has flaws, but most people haven't gotten over the hype yet and still think it's perfection

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