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Gogo

Anti-Form, DiZ as a SoD, and why Xehanort renamed himself "Ansem"

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Terranort was the form that resembled Terra more. Apprentice Xehanort was the form with longer hair and brown eyes. The last confirmed time we've seen Terranort affect his heart was the attempted heart extraction of Terra's heart; he still looked the same, a short amount of time passed, and then he looks like AX.

Terranort and Apprentice Xehanort are the same person basically. But yeah. They were struggling for control and all that jazz. His hair grew because time. His eyes changed because of the battle for control. It's different from the vessels because Xehanort wanted to make Terra's body his own. So there was a battle for it. With the vessels Xehanort just slips some darkness in there and lets it take it's effect. But now I'm basically just repeat what was already said. 

 

Also, I forgot to mention, Master Xehanort WAS controlling Isa. You can tell by how Master Xehanort acted for one. For two the Nomura (The guy who writes the story) said that is what happened. That is just something you'll have to accept. :P

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Like I said, Saix may have actually wanted to have been part of both Orgs. As for why, I think he just wanted power. Desire for power has been an important motive that's been used and abused before with a few other characters, so this wouldn't be coming out of nowhere.
He would want to overthrow, and not ditch, the Org for power.
He would work with Xemnas towards the KH of Peoples' Heart for power.
He would willingly become a SoD for power.
And the whole heart thing could be a matter of him having conflict over what he really wants. 
Playing both sides still makes him DISLOYAL and therefore you are contradicting yourself
 
It's too unrealistic in a video game for two people two die at the same time and place? I don't think it sounds better than the experimentation idea, but it's not something I'd call highly unlikely, given that they have other reasons to be in the castle anyways.
That whole theory of yours is way more of a stretch  than anything else we've heard. They were said to have become nobodies at the same time and joined the org together. Then in BBS we seem them sneaking in the castle together - the very place the experiments would take place . Then they revive in the lab proving they lost their hearts there . Theres way more evidence backing up my theory than yours BY FAR . All you are stating is 'what if ' with no reasoning behind it except to say "what if "
 
You need to learn to actually back up your reasons for your possibilities or they just won't stand up. But then again you have yet to do that 6 pages into this .It also hurts your credibility that you deny canon material  or straight up try to twist the meaning of what was even said to fit your agenda . If you truly thought your possibilities held merit you wouldn't need to be so desperate to do that.

~Life is a video-game~

Edited by Flaming Lea

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Grasping for strawsGrasping for straws and on top of that completely not even backed up by anything they have deliberately shown us and told us . Once again , if you are going to throw out theories better back it up with reasons or evidence to support why its possible or you just look like you are just making shit up just to make shit up .Nomura also clearly states that MX's heart takes over a persons heart till they literally become him and then he will completely control him .

Just the idea that they were experimented on is something I'd consider no more than a probable theory. Where is the basis for the idea that Saix was a special case, in that his Xehanortification was even related to his Heartless transformation? No game quote/pattern or Nomura quote you gave has even remotely referenced that idea.

Except once again thats not even what a damn said . I said he would have little choice if he even had a small chance of getting a heart back so of course he would still stay. I mentioned Nort controlling him in DDD and Ive specified this many times . Do you not read my posts ?

Your DDD argument doesn't hold enough to assume what you want out of Nomura's quote. "He plans to control them completely."How does that indicate that he's always got some amount of control over his vessels, 24/7? Are you going to assume that there is no difference between YX during most of DDD and YX during his boss battle? Are you going to assume that Saix would even know of this part? All the Xehanorts ever do is scam people. If anything, Xemnas WOULD scam Saix out because of the conspiracy plans.

If you had seen all the cutscenes before and after and the entire freaking game yes they sure as heck did . Don't argue what was meant in a scene in a game you've not played and actually have full knowledge of and then have the nerve to tell others what the game was showing us.I cannot take you seriously when you do that.

All you've done is told me why it could be taken that they were talking about a vessel for Sora's power to collect KH. It'd help if you told me why it couldn't be a plan to get another Xehanort vessel, which I've already expressed how it could.

Not only does the audience consider Saix a trader ,Nomura does too and and he's the writer . Thx and come again . Quit grasping for more straws. All of your posts are just grasping with no evidence to back up why its possible except for you to say " this is possible bc I said so " LOL

First you tell me that YX's quote about treachery being a reason for failed members is a retcon (in that case, it would be considered canon), now you're telling me that Nomura wrote that on purpose (and that it's actually YX's misinterpretation). Surely you can see the problem here.

Terranort and Apprentice Xehanort are the same person basically. But yeah. They were struggling for control and all that jazz. His hair grew because time. His eyes changed because of the battle for control. It's different from the vessels because Xehanort wanted to make Terra's body his own. So there was a battle for it. With the vessels Xehanort just slips some darkness in there and lets it take it's effect. But now I'm basically just repeat what was already said.

They're the same physically, but not physiologically, since that attempted heart extraction did something. Even if the amnesia was fake, was the brown eyes supposed to happen either way? I know how it's a very different example, but it's an example nonetheless because it shares the same base idea with the vessels: Affecting a vessel that already has a heart. Really though, I'll admit that Terranort's case can go either way. 

Also, I forgot to mention, Master Xehanort WAS controlling Isa. You can tell by how Master Xehanort acted for one. For two the Nomura (The guy who writes the story) said that is what happened. That is just something you'll have to accept. :P

MX leered. That can't mean he can expect Isa to attack someone he probably has beef with anyways?Nomura said he "plans to control." That doesn't insinuate at all that he has 24/7 control, which would be the only way to prove that Isa's there against his will.  

Playing both sides still makes him DISLOYAL and therefore you are contradicting yourself

You're not even addressing what you were just quoting; I already explained my beef with the treachery business. 

You need to learn to actually back up your reasons for your possibilities or they just won't stand up. But then again you have yet to do that 6 pages into this .It also hurts your credibility that you deny canon material  or straight up try to twist the meaning of what was even said to fit your agenda . If you truly thought your possibilities held merit you wouldn't need to be so desperate to do that.

Like I said, I don't know how you can say you aren't grasping for straws with the idea of Saix' forced Xehanortification, either. Just because I don't respect the idea Isa's/Lea's experimentation as an assumed fact doesn't mean I don't respect it as a credible theory. Edited by Gogo

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They're the same physically, but not physiologically, since that attempted heart extraction did something. Even if the amnesia was fake, was the brown eyes supposed to happen either way? I know how it's a very different example, but it's an example nonetheless because it shares the same base idea with the vessels: Affecting a vessel that already has a heart. Really though, I'll admit that Terranort's case can go either way.

 MX leered. That can't mean he can expect Isa to attack someone he probably has beef with anyways?Nomura said he "plans to control." That doesn't insinuate at all that he has 24/7 control, which would be the only way to prove that Isa's there against his will.

The brown eyes is to mainly show that they are fighting for control. Just like how Young Xehanorts eyes glowed for a second to show that he was being controlled. There are a lot of things in Kingdom Hearts that are meant to represent something and that is the purpose of them.

 

I didn't say he had 24/7 control. My point is that he can control them at his own will. Although It is safe to assume that the darkness that Xehanort puts in his vessel does effect them while Xehanort isn't directly taking control. Xehanort's "leer" went from relaxed eyes and a smile to a him opening his eyes wider in a fast motion. As soon as he did that Isa went flying at Lea. It's a subtle motion but it represents his control.  Also when you look at Isa's movements he went at a great speed and force. Based of the battle with Isa in KH2 he did a lot of yelling and used a lot angry facial expressions. Once his hood went off in DDD he had a blank stare. If he went after Lea on his own he would have looked a lot more angry. 

 

On the topic of why Isa would be a vessel. It is possible that he became a vessel willingly without knowledge of what Xehanorts plans really were. Based off of all his other actions. His main purpose after becoming a nobody was to get his own heart. If he did become a vessel on his own terms I doubt he knew what would really happen to him. Xemnas/Xehanort lied to the organization about them growing there own hearts. So, it is highly likely (if Isa became a vessel on his own terms) that he did not actually know that he would become a vessel and that Xemnas/Xehanort actually told him that this is how he would get his heart back. (Again that's only IF he did it willingly.) But it is also very possible that he had no knowledge of what they did to him whatsoever. 

Edited by Megaman X

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Just the idea that they were experimented on is something I'd consider no more than a probable theory. Where is the basis for the idea that Saix was a special case, in that his Xehanortification was even related to his Heartless transformation? No game quote/pattern or Nomura quote you gave has even remotely referenced that idea.Your DDD argument doesn't hold enough to assume what you want out of Nomura's quote. "He plans to control them completely."

You are the one using the term special case not me . Also I never said how Saix became a nobody was fact .In fact , I said all along its a theory . Don't you read at all? What I'm telling you is that at least im basing my theory on facts we do know from the game UNLIKE YOU whose only anser to everything is ' What if ' bc I said so " with NO EVIDENCE TO SAY WHY ITS POSSIBLE . WHICH YOU STILL HAVE YET TO DO.

How does that indicate that he's always got some amount of control over his vessels, 24/7? Are you going to assume that there is no difference between YX during most of DDD and YX during his boss battle? Are you going to assume that Saix would even know of this part? All the Xehanorts ever do is scam people. If anything, Xemnas WOULD scam Saix out because of the conspiracy

plans.  

Once again I never said it was 24/7 in the context you are saying .Ive spelled this out numerous times .I'll say it again .Nomura says he can enter the bodies of his vessels at will . We saw this in DDD. Im sure since there is one MX he can only POSSESS ones body for so long . However , the vessel that hes using has been taken over by MX's heart giving him influence and control the more the vessel becomes more Xehanort till it eventually consumes that person . This was CONFIRED by Nomura. YMX wasn't possesssed by MX throughout DDD but we saw him become possessed  when MX needed his body. Also since i'm saying Saix is unwilling im saying he WOULDNT know . How are YOU saying im assuming he knows this? That doesnt even make sense.

 

   

All you've done is told me why it could be taken that they were talking about a vessel for Sora's power to collect KH. It'd help if you told me why it couldn't be a plan to get another Xehanort vessel, which I've already expressed how it could.  

Myself and a few others already pointed out why its not what you are saying . Do you not read everyones posts or are you just ignoring what you cannot dispute ?The entire freaking game they go back and forth deciding who to keep bc they could not keep both since they were sharing power and draining each other . THE ENTIRE GAME SHOWS THIS.LIKE I SAID PLAY THE GAME .

 

First you tell me that YX's quote about treachery being a reason for failed members is a retcon (in that case, it would be considered canon), now you're telling me that Nomura wrote that on purpose. Surely you can see the problem here.

Thats not even what i said once again . I said that him saying disloyalty was a failed reason attempts to retcon what happened in DAYS bc it makes no sense and is IMHO a plothole. Do you not read ANYTHING i say ?

They're the same physically, but not physiologically, since that attempted heart extraction did something. Even if the amnesia was fake, was the brown eyes supposed to happen either way? I know how it's a very different example, but it's an example nonetheless because it shares the same base idea with the vessels: Affecting a vessel that already has a heart. Really though, I'll admit that Terranort's case can go either way.Still not the same thing so its moot 

 MX leered. That can't mean he can expect Isa to attack someone he probably has beef with anyways?

Xigbar says ' Do something you old coot " then we see MX smiling and then Saix leaps into the air to attack . Nomura says he can control his vessels at will. Gee i wonder. Adds up to me .

 

 

Nomura said he "plans to control." That doesn't insinuate at all that he has 24/7 control, which would be the only way to prove that Isa's there against his will.

Once again we have already spelled this out for you . He can possess and give orders to his vessels at will therefore he possesses power over them when he chooses to. As for the times hes not, the vessel is still consumed by MX's heart making him more and more Nort till they ARE Nort. Taking on someone else identity slowly surely affects his decision to defect.

 

 You're not even addressing what you were just quoting; I already explained my beef with the treachery business.

No i addressed exactly what I quoted . Even being two faced for his own agenda is DISLOYALTY. Thats pretty clear

 

 Like I said, I don't know how you can say you aren't grasping for straws with the idea of Saix' forced Xehanortification, either. Just because I don't respect the idea Isa's/Lea's experimentation as an assumed fact doesn't mean I don't respect it as a credible theory.

I never said it was impossible . I said it was unlikely, but possible .  The facts we do know about the situation point to unwilling .Therefore I'm not grasping for straws when i went into full detail about WHY its unlikely Isa was willing. Something you have yet to do with any of your posts. It would be easier to respect any theories of yours if you quit ignoring canon material and referring to stuff in game that you didn't even play and know little about. 

Edited by Flaming Lea

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The brown eyes is to mainly show that they are fighting for control. Just like how Young Xehanorts eyes glowed for a second to show that he was being controlled. There are a lot of things in Kingdom Hearts that are meant to represent something and that is the purpose of them.

Or lack of struggle from both hearts. If brown eyes symbolizes struggle (or, at least eyes that aren't golden), why didn't they change until after the heart extraction (and gradually, at that)? Terra was already struggling before.

 

Xehanort's case is too complicated to say almost anything clear about it.

 

I didn't say he had 24/7 control. My point is that he can control them at his own will. Although It is safe to assume that the darkness that Xehanort puts in his vessel does effect them while Xehanort isn't directly taking control.

I can imagine that a fragment can affect judgment, yeah. Whether or not that means you are who you truly are is grey zone, but all I'm trying to do is show that it's reasonable for Saix to be there genuinely, even if it's also reasonable otherwise.

 

Xeha

nort's "leer" went from relaxed eyes and a smile to a him opening his eyes wider in a fast motion. As soon as he did that Isa went flying at Lea. It's a subtle motion but it represents his control.

From what I'm seeing, he smiles at the same time as he widens his eyes. Either way, it could just as easily be MX being cocky. Unless this notion was used in previous examples of mind-control, you can't say that it favors that argument over the other.

 

Also when you look at Isa's movements he went at a great speed and force. Based of the battle with Isa in KH2 he did a lot of yelling and used a lot angry facial expressions. Once his hood went off in DDD he had a blank stare. If he went after Lea on his own he would have looked a lot more angry.

Saix was in his equivalent of "Rage Mode," given that he had a slightly different model.

 

On the topic of why Isa would be a vessel. It is possible that he became a vessel willingly without knowledge of what Xehanorts plans really were. Based off of all his other actions. His main purpose after becoming a nobody was to get his own heart. If he did become a vessel on his own terms I doubt he knew what would really happen to him. Xemnas/Xehanort lied to the organization about them growing there own hearts. So, it is highly likely (if Isa became a vessel on his own terms) that he did not actually know that he would become a vessel and that Xemnas/Xehanort actually told him that this is how he would get his heart back. (Again that's only IF he did it willingly.) But it is also very possible that he had no knowledge of what they did to him whatsoever.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me about the extent of its plausibility, but thank you. That's all I'm really trying to say, that's possible and plausible.

 

 

 

You are thr one using the term special case not me . Also I never said how Saix became a nobody was fact .In fact , I said all along its a theory . Don't you read at all? What I'm telling you is that at least im basing my theory on facts we do know from the game UNLIKE YOU whose only anser to everything is ' What if ' bc I said so " with NO EVIDENCE TO SAY WHY ITS POSSIBLE . WHICH YOU STILL HAVE YET TO DO.

You're counter-theorizing my theory with your own, using Nomura's words/series material as backbone. The problem is that I find you're misusing all that material in a way that's more flawed than you think. MX having control? Says nothing about Saix wanting to be there. Lea's revival in the lab? Even if they were experimented, where would the idea of the correlation between his Heartless transformation and Xehanortification even come from? That's the actual baseless theory. Play Days? Play Days without playing BBS, and try to explain the Ven scene. Days is not only its own game, but a part of a series that's constantly developing its own universe.

 

ong class='bbc'>Once again I never said it was 24/7 in the context you are saying .Ive spelled this out numerous times .I'll say it again .Nomura says he can enter the bodies of his vessels at will . We saw this in DDD. Im sure since there is one MX he can only POSSESS ones body for so long . However , the vessel that hes using has been taken over by MX's heart giving him influence and control the more the vessel becomes more Xehanort till it eventually consumes that person . This was CONFIRED by Nomura. YMX wasn't possesssed by MX throughout DDD but we saw him become possessed when MX needed his body. Also since i'm saying Saix is unwilling im saying he WOULDNT know . How are YOU saying im assuming he knows this? That doesnt even make sense.

Most of those are assumptions that you have to make to make your theory on Saix' unwillingness seem plausible; just because you're quoting canon material doesn't mean you're using it right. You're not just saying it's a theory, you're saying it's a plausible theory and everything else is unlikely.

 

ong>Myself and a few others already pointed out why its not what you are saying . Do you not read everyones posts or are you just ignoring what you canot dispute ?The entire freaking game they go back and forth deciding who to keep bc they could not keep both since they were sharing power and draining each other . THE ENTIRE GAME SHOWS THIS.LIKE I SAID PLAY THE GAME .ockquote>

 

I got that video from one of Megaman's posts, with him giving me the idea. Clearly I'm reading. And as I already said, Days is not only a game, but an extension of the series.

 

 

ong>Thats not even what i said once again . I said that him saying disloyalty was a failed reason attempts to retcon what happened in DAYS bc it makes no sense and is IMHO a plothole. Do you not read ANYTHING i say ?
The problem is that you shouldn't make assumptions on YX's quote about treachery if even plotholes hold certain significance in the series. You're telling me it's canon that Saix was a traitor, yet you can't accept that treachery is still a canon reason, or at least to a certain extent.

 

ong class='bbc'>Still not the same thing so its moot
It's still a reason to not jump to a conclusion that could make or break a theory (or, make it seem more plausible, at least).

 

Xigbar says ' Do something you old coot " then we see MX smiling and then Saix leaps into the air to attack . Nomura says he can control his vessels at will. Gee i wonder. Adds up to me .

He said, "what now, you old coot?"

Isa has plenty of reasons to attack Lea on his own accord, and MX, the all-seeing eye who knows about Sora's escapades without ever meeting him, would know and take advantage of that.

 

Once again we have already spelled this out for you . He can possess and give orders to his vessels at will therefore he possesses power over them when he chooses to. As for the times hes not, the vessel is still consumed by MX's heart making him more and more Nort till they ARE Nort. Taking on someone else identity slowly surely affects his decision to defect.

That still wouldn't go against Saix actually wanting to be part of the Orgs.

 

No i addressed exactly what I quoted . Even being two faced for his own agenda is DISLOYALTY. Thats pretty clear

No, the loyalty issue was something I addressed earlier. If you're going to reason my theory to be outlandish, these are points you should be addressing, not an issue that can be interpreted in both our ways.

 

I never said it was impossible . I said it was unlikely, but possible .

This much I can appreciate, so thank you for that.

 

The facts we do know about the situation point to unwilling .Therefore I'm not grasping for straws when i went into full detail about WHY its unlikely Isa was willing. Something you have yet to do with any of your posts. It would be easier to respect any theories of yours if you quit ignoring canon material and referring to stuff in game that you didn't even play and know little about.

The facts don't point towards his unwilling participation, they point towards MX calling the shots. In fact, Nomura expressed Xigbar's pride in being a Xehanort, so there's potential for willing participants, even the traitor Saix. It can be argued that it can go both ways.

Edited by Gogo

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Or lack of struggle from both hearts. If brown eyes symbolizes struggle (or, at least eyes that aren't golden), why didn't they change until after the heart extraction (and gradually, at that)? Terra was already struggling before.
Xehanort's case is too complicated to say almost anything clear about it.

​I'm not saying that brown eyes symbolizes struggle in general. More that it shows Terra was still fighting for control. It's a way of showing it rather than saying it. 

 

I can imagine that a fragment can affect judgment, yeah. Whether or not that means you are who you truly are is grey zone, but all I'm trying to do is show that it's reasonable for Saix to be there genuinely, even if it's also reasonable otherwise.

The thing about it is that it isn't reasonable. It would be against his character. 

 

From what I'm seeing, he smiles at the same time as he widens his eyes. Either way, it could just as easily be MX being cocky. Unless this notion was used in previous examples of mind-control, you can't say that it favors that argument over the other.

Think of it this way. If it were written down on a piece of paper it would look something like this.

Xehanort smiled and his eyes widened.

Then the cloaked figure lunged out of his seat and attacked Lea.

Xehanort's facial expressions are directly before Isa's action. It's a way of showing Xehanort can control his Vessels without him saying "Go attack Lea Isa".

 

Saix was in his equivalent of "Rage Mode," given that he had a slightly different model.

That just sort of seems like a cop out. I am using in game examples of how Isa is and you are just writing them off to basically mean nothing. When it is an example of how his character is handled.

 

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me about the extent of its plausibility, but thank you. That's all I'm really trying to say, that's possible and plausible.

Well to me it sounds like you are saying Isa knew what was going on and joined. I am basically saying that if he did join on his own accord it would be more likely that he was lied to.  Because it is against his character to know what Xehanort's plan was and join anyway.

Edited by Megaman X

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You're counter-theorizing my theory with your own, using Nomura's words/series material as backbone. The problem is that I find you're misusing all that material in a way that's more flawed than you think. MX having control? Says nothing about Saix wanting to be there. Lea's revival in the lab? Even if they were experimented, where would the idea of the correlation between his Heartless transformation and Xehanortification even come from? That's the actual baseless theory. Play Days? Play Days without playing BBS, and try to explain the Ven scene. Days is not only its own game, but a part of a series that's constantly developing its own univers

Who are you to say i'm misusing all the material ? You cannot prove that . What im referencing makes perfect sense and follows canon material already given that you refuse to acknowledge. As for experimenting it makes perfect sense to implant vessels while experimenting without them fully knowing what is exactly happening to them .So its far from baseless.Claiming they were prolly experimented on during the experiments makes perfect sense considering they all revived together with the apprentices and not somewhere else in RG. Basically your answer to everything is "all your examples are wrong bc i said so". Prove why its wrong. You cannot. As for Days , once again you keep referencing a game you never bothered to finish and have little knowledge about. Everything you just said right there made no sense . How would you even know since you don't even know what happened during Days ? Do you not realize what you sound like right here ?

 

Most of those are assumptions that you have to make to make your theory on Saix' unwillingness seem plausible; just because you're quoting canon material doesn't mean you're using it right. You're not just saying it's a theory, you're saying it's a plausible theory and everything else is unlikely.

Of course im saying its a plausible theory bc im referencing canon material to back it up. You have no proof to say i'm 'misusing' material except to say 'bc you said so"all bc it refutes what you want to say ... "Because you said so " means nothing to anyone without evidence to prove it wrong which you cannot provide.

He said, "what now, you old coot?"

Isa has plenty of reasons to attack Lea on his own accord, and MX, the all-seeing eye who knows about Sora's escapades without ever meeting him, would know and take advantage of that.

It's pretty damn obvious what's going on in that scene but like i said, all you have is 'what if' and "bc i said so " while everyone else is telling you WHY using canon material. We won't agree on this ever bc it's pretty obvious you refuse to admit anything that refutes you makes sense.

 

No, the loyalty issue was something I addressed earlier. If you're going to reason my theory to be outlandish, these are points you should be addressing, not an issue that can be interpreted in both our ways.

The fact that its a proven point that Saix was a traitor says it all .So even allowing the possibility he played both sides STILL MAKES HIM UNLOYAL. How is this hard to understand? Oh thats right bc it refutes what you are saying . LOL

 

The problem is that you shouldn't make assumptions on YX's quote about treachery if even plotholes hold certain significance in the series. You're telling me it's canon that Saix was a traitor, yet you can't accept that treachery is still a canon reason, or at least to a certain extent.

 

Assumptions? Saix was a traitor . Fact. Not assumption .Therefore it makes little sense 

 

 


The facts don't point towards his unwilling participation, they point towards MX calling the shots. In fact, Nomura expressed Xigbar's pride in being a Xehanort, so there's potential for willing participants, even the traitor Saix. It can be argued that it can go both ways.

Xemnas fully admitted to lying to all the members of the org to get what he wanted from them without them knowing .Xigbar being the exception bc he was in on the plot from the beggining and before the org was formed.Just bc HE was willing doesn't make it true about anyone else. Why would a known traitor WANT to willingly be norted and submit his will to a man he did not trust and wanted to overthrow ? Tell me how that makes sense one bit ? Saix and Axel also searched everywhere looking for what Xemnas was really up to in Days . Why would they do that if Saix was willing and already knew ? Nothing you are saying adds up to the end result making it highly unlikely due to it making it illogical based off the past actions of this character . Yet you refuse to acknowledge this contradicts everything that happened in Days  and what even Nomura said about them rebelling and searching for Xemnas' true intentions as traitors looking to defect. In other words, you cannot say that Saix being a willing participant makes MORE sense than being unwilling. Because it just doesn't .  Because in game canon and Nomuras own words don't prove Saix was disloyal and working against Xemnas while pretending to be his right hand man,right ? LOL ok then 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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​I'm not saying that brown eyes symbolizes struggle in general. More that it shows Terra was still fighting for control. It's a way of showing it rather than saying it. 

I'm sure you can understand that that's still only one potential interpretation alongside many others that may seem just as plausible. Nomura made certain to leave it unclear as to what heart did what inside of Apprentice Xehanort and his future incarnations.

The thing about it is that it isn't reasonable. It would be against his character. 

Assuming that the Xehanorts can't offer him something he wants. Would certainly explain why he planned on overthrowing and then sticking to the Organization than just flat-out trying to leave it.

 

Think of it this way. If it were written down on a piece of paper it would look something like this.

Xehanort smiled and his eyes widened.

Then the cloaked figure lunged out of his seat and attacked Lea.

Xehanort's facial expressions are directly before Isa's action. It's a way of showing Xehanort can control his Vessels without him saying "Go attack Lea Isa".

Don't get me wrong, I understand how it could work. However, I find it easier to explain that as MX both expecting and enjoying the irony of old friends fighting against each other.

 

That just sort of seems like a cop out. I am using in game examples of how Isa is and you are just writing them off to basically mean nothing. When it is an example of how his character is handled.

Beserk Mode Saix (found the right name) is clearly different from regular Saix, though.

 

Posted Image

 

Different face, different weapon. Pretty reasonable to me.

 

Well to me it sounds like you are saying Isa knew what was going on and joined. I am basically saying that if he did join on his own accord it would be more likely that he was lied to.  Because it is against his character to know what Xehanort's plan was and join anyway.

And it's entirely reflective of Xehanort's character to lie to him; that's all the Xehanorts have ever done, use and abuse. MX took interest in Terra because of Terra's desire for power (as well as other examples), so it's possible that Saix is the continuation of that pattern.

 

Edit: Responding to Flaming Lea's post

​I'm not saying that brown eyes symbolizes struggle in general. More that it shows Terra was still fighting for control. It's a way of showing it rather than saying it. 

I'm sure you can understand that that's still only one potential interpretation alongside many others that may seem just as plausible. Nomura made certain to leave it unclear as to what heart did what inside of Apprentice Xehanort and his future incarnations.

The thing about it is that it isn't reasonable. It would be against his character. 

Assuming that the Xehanorts can't offer him something he wants. Would certainly explain why he planned on overthrowing and then sticking to the Organization than just flat-out trying to leave it.

 

Think of it this way. If it were written down on a piece of paper it would look something like this.

Xehanort smiled and his eyes widened.

Then the cloaked figure lunged out of his seat and attacked Lea.

Xehanort's facial expressions are directly before Isa's action. It's a way of showing Xehanort can control his Vessels without him saying "Go attack Lea Isa".

Don't get me wrong, I understand how it could work. However, I find it easier to explain that as MX both expecting and enjoying the irony of old friends fighting against each other.

 

That just sort of seems like a cop out. I am using in game examples of how Isa is and you are just writing them off to basically mean nothing. When it is an example of how his character is handled.

Beserk Mode Saix (found the right name) is clearly different from regular Saix, though.

 

Posted Image

 

Different face, different weapon. Pretty reasonable to me.

 

Well to me it sounds like you are saying Isa knew what was going on and joined. I am basically saying that if he did join on his own accord it would be more likely that he was lied to.  Because it is against his character to know what Xehanort's plan was and join anyway.

And it's entirely reflective of Xehanort's character to lie to him; that's all the Xehanorts have ever done, use and abuse. MX took interest in Terra because of Terra's desire for power (as well as other examples), so it's possible that Saix is the continuation of that pattern.

Who are you to say i'm misusing all the material ? You cannot prove that . What im referencing makes perfect sense and follows canon material already given that you refuse to acknowledge.

You're saying that certain canon material insinuates certain ideas/theories, and that it's unreasonable for them to insinuate anything else.

As for experimenting it makes perfect sense to implant vessels while experimenting without them fully knowing what is exactly happening to them. So its far from baseless.

You can't just create a scenario and justify its plausibility by saying "it makes logical sense," especially if there's barely any real connection to the canon material. For instance, I'm saying Xemnas lied to Saix and promised him power because it's undeniable that most other incarnations of Xehanort tend to take advantage of others. With a situation as specific as Saix' experimentation, what could possibly be foreshadowing that it happened this way, other than "who cares, it works out perfectly anyways?"

Claiming they were prolly experimented on during the experiments makes perfect sense considering they all revived together with the apprentices and not somewhere else in RG.

Or they just snuck in at the wrong place and time. I'm not saying it's more plausible than being experimented on, but it's plausible enough to consider room for error.

 

As for Days , once again you keep referencing a game you never bothered to finish and have little knowledge about. Everything you just said right there made no sense . How would you even know since you don't even know what happened during Days ? Do you not realize what you sound like right here ?

You can't deny that the Ven scene is complete proof that Days was not meant to be fully understood as a standalone game. If you played Days, then you know what I'm talking about.

 

It's pretty damn obvious what's going on in that scene but like i said, all you have is 'what if' and "bc i said so " while everyone else is telling you WHY using canon material. We won't agree on this ever bc it's pretty obvious you refuse to admit anything that refutes you makes sense.

 

You don't interpret Saix being mind-controlled as obvious because "it just is," rather it's because you can't find a reason for Saix to be there genuinely. I've already provided reasons.

 

The fact that its a proven point that Saix was a traitor says it all .So even allowing the possibility he played both sides STILL MAKES HIM UNLOYAL. How is this hard to understand? Oh thats right bc it refutes what you are saying . LOL

Do you know why plot holes are important problems? It's because they make a difference in the story structure. Your interpretation of a plot hole is that it doesn't even matter, so bother even thinking of it?

 

Xemnas fully admitted to lying to all the members of the org to get what he wanted from them without them knowing .Xigbar being the exception bc he was in on the plot from the beggining and before the org was formed.Just bc HE was willing doesn't make it true about anyone else. Why would a known traitor WANT to willingly be norted and submit his will to a man he did not trust and wanted to overthrow ?

 

The Xehanorts aren't just liars, they're convincing. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did (and no point in being a liar if you can't pull it off, either).

 

Tell me how that makes sense one bit ? Saix and Axel also searched everywhere looking for what Xemnas was really up to in Days . Why would they do that if Saix was willing and already knew ?

Knowing about the vessel plan doesn't mean knowing about what the importance of the chambers.

 

Nothing you are saying adds up to the end result making it highly unlikely due to it making it illogical based off the past actions of this character .

Well yeah, the series has established recurring patterns/formulas before.

 

Because in game canon and Nomuras own words don't prove Saix was disloyal and working against Xemnas while pretending to be his right hand man,right ? LOL ok then

 

Like I said, it's like you're blocking out DDD from the canon universe.

Edited by Gogo

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I'm sure you can understand that that's still only one potential interpretation alongside many others that may seem just as plausible. Nomura made certain to leave it unclear as to what heart did what inside of Apprentice Xehanort and his future incarnations.

It is. But it's based off of the whole game series and how eyes are used to express something. Like how originally,basically, yellow eyes were meant to show evil and blue was good. Thing is you haven't really given any reason or examples for well....Anything really.

Assuming that the Xehanorts can't offer him something he wants. Would certainly explain why he planned on overthrowing and then sticking to the Organization than just flat-out trying to leave it.

I never said he was trying to leave it. 

 

 Don't get me wrong, I understand how it could work. However, I find it easier to explain that as MX both expecting and enjoying the irony of old friends fighting against each other.

I imagine he would enjoy the irony. That would be why he controlled Isa and sent him after Lea. 

 Beserk Mode Saix (found the right name) is clearly different from regular Saix, though.

 

Posted Image

 

Different face, different weapon. Pretty reasonable to me.

Except he isn't always in berserk mode in the whole fight. 

 And it's entirely reflective of Xehanort's character to lie to him; that's all the Xehanorts have ever done, use and abuse. MX took interest in Terra because of Terra's desire for power (as well as other examples), so it's possible that Saix is the continuation of that pattern.

 

Edit: Responding to Flaming Lea's post

Isa is more about wanting to control things than wanting power. So him wanting to be controlled makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like you are missing the point of his character. 

Edited by Megaman X

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Fools, we all know the vessels are the Sea salt ice-creams. Ansems eyes are yellowish from brain freeze from all the ice creams he consumes, it where he get's his powers. And Scrooge McDuck supplied them in KH2, he's the real villain here.

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You can't deny that the Ven scene is complete proof that Days was not meant to be fully understood as a standalone game. If you played Days, then you know what I'm talking about.

I never said that Days was a stand alone .Why must you contiuously make up shit i never said ? Its gotten very old.

 

You don't interpret Saix being mind-controlled as obvious because "it just is," rather it's because you can't find a reason for Saix to be there genuinely. I've already provided reasons.

Putting words in my mouth again .Its not that i dont find a reason .I just straight up disagree 

 

Do you know why plot holes are important problems? It's because they make a difference in the story structure. Your interpretation of a plot hole is that it doesn't even matter, so bother even thinking of it?

Again putting words in my mouth i never said . Boy you are grasping for straws. The fact that I said i find this loyalty statement in DDD flawed and contradictory says a lot 

 

he Xehanorts aren't just liars, they're convincing. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did (and no point in being a liar if you can't pull it off, either).

 

See this is what you fail to get when i say its unwilling . If they lied and kept the true process and plan from Saix and he doesn't truly know whats going on , that still qualifies to me as unwillingly bc he had no idea what really happenened to him

 

Knowing about the vessel plan doesn't mean knowing about what the importance of the chambers.

they never said that was all they were looking for . They were searching for any information they can on what xemnas was hiding. 

 

Like I said, it's like you're blocking out DDD from the canon universe.

 

This statement especially makes no sense .How does me saying saix is disloyal say I dont think ddd is canon? It points out how isa was being mindcontrolled. which proves my point xD You just keeping putting words in my mouth . 

 

 

Seriously I'm done with this conversation bc it's clear that we will not agree on any of this and we have both said what we want to say . Otherwise we will continue to go in circles and thats just plain pointless and annoying. Think what you want it doesn't make you accurate or correct but whatever floats your boat. 

Edited by Flaming Lea

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It is. But it's based off of the whole game series and how eyes are used to express something. Like how originally,basically, yellow eyes were meant to show evil and blue was good. Thing is you haven't really given any reason or examples for well....Anything really.

Saying that brown eyes definitely means something doesn't mean we have a good idea as to what they mean.

I never said he was trying to leave it.

I know, just saiyan.

I imagine he would enjoy the irony. That would be why he controlled Isa and sent him after Lea.

Or maybe it could be ironic because he wouldn't have to lift a finger to let someone with a grudge fight his own past friend. 

Except he isn't always in berserk mode in the whole fight.

Fair point.But combat theatricalities aren't quite reliable. Take Roxas initiating his fight with Sora, in KH2 TWTNW. He grunts more in gameplay, but he just stayed silent after striking Sora the first time. 

Isa is more about wanting to control things than wanting power. So him wanting to be controlled makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like you are missing the point of his character.

He's still has front-row seats on the master plan to reorganize the universe. This might be what really interests him.Edit: Editing again...uh, brb. Edited by Gogo

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He's still has front-row seats on the master plan to reorganize the universe. This might be what really interests him.Edit: Editing again...

Except for the fact that that would be out of character for him.

 

This really is going nowhere...It's just getting boring now because I am trying to have a discussion with in games examples and everything else. But all you are doing is pretty much saying random things with nothing to really back it up.  I'm not saying theory's are bad or anything. It just makes it so I can't take a discussion seriously when it's just random statements with nothing to them. See ya.

Edited by Megaman X

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WTF is this!!! >_<

Or lack of struggle from both hearts. If brown eyes symbolizes struggle (or, at least eyes that aren't golden), why didn't they change until after the heart extraction (and gradually, at that)? Terra was already struggling before.Because despite Terra's struggle Xehanort had primary control until the moment he attempted to lock away Terra's heart which ended up locking both of their hearts away.It is my belief that if Xehanort did really lose his memories it was from this point up until Ansem the Wise experimented on Xehanort's heart.

Most of those are assumptions that you have to make to make your theory on Saix' unwillingness seem plausible; just because you're quoting canon material doesn't mean you're using it right. You're not juIt's still a reason to not jump to a conclusion that could make or break a theory (or, make it seem more plausible, at least).She isn't assuming it is well established in both in game content, Nomura interviews , and Special Reports that Siax did not trust Xemnas from the very beginning. He only stayed because he had no other alternate way to get his heart back and even then he doubted he would get it back(He says so in days). Not to mention do you really think that Xemnas would one of the sucessfull vessels walk out the door without a way to reign them in. Why do think Xemnas was constantly threatning to turn them into dusks. He had to keep them all under his controll untill the process was complete.

He said, "what now, you old coot?"Isa has plenty of reasons to attack Lea on his own accord, and MX, the all-seeing eye who knows about Sora's escapades without ever meeting him, would know and take advantage of that.That's an assumption that does not even back up your pointThat still wouldn't go against Saix actually wanting to be part of the Orgs.No, the loyalty issue was something I addressed earlier. If you're going to reason my theory to be outlandish, these are points you should be addressing, not an issue that can be interpreted in both our ways.This much I can appreciate, so thank you for that.The facts don't point towards his unwilling participation, they point towards MX calling the shots. In fact, Nomura expressed Xigbar's pride in being a Xehanort, so there's potential for willing participants, even the traitor Saix. It can be argued that it can go both ways.

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WTF is this!!! >_<

Or lack of struggle from both hearts. If brown eyes symbolizes struggle (or, at least eyes that aren't golden), why didn't they change until after the heart extraction (and gradually, at that)? Terra was already struggling before.

Because despite Terra's struggle Xehanort had primary control until the moment he attempted to lock away Terra's heart which ended up locking both of their hearts away.It is my belief that if Xehanort did really lose his memories it was from this point up until Ansem the Wise experimented on Xehanort's heart.

Most of those are assumptions that you have to make to make your theory on Saix' unwillingness seem plausible; just because you're quoting canon material doesn't mean you're using it right. You're not juIt's still a reason to not jump to a conclusion that could make or break a theory (or, make it seem more plausible, at least).

She isn't assuming (quit putting words in her mouth) it is well established in both in game content, Nomura interviews , and Special Reports that Siax did not trust Xemnas from the very beginning. He only stayed because he had no other alternate way to get his heart back and even then he doubted he would get it back(He says so in days). Not to mention do you really think that Xemnas would one of the sucessfull vessels walk out the door without a way to reign them in. Why do think Xemnas was constantly threatning to turn them into dusks. He had to keep them all under his controll untill the process was complete.

He said, "what now, you old coot?"Isa has plenty of reasons to attack Lea on his own accord, and MX, the all-seeing eye who knows about Sora's escapades without ever meeting him, would know and take advantage of that.

That's an assumption that does not even back up your point. He only knew of Sora's actions because Xemnas and Ansem saw them in real time. Siax may have had reason to fight Lea but at that moment he followed MX's will. Siax wasn't even focused on his anger with Lea only on retrieving Sora. If was

That still wouldn't go against Saix actually wanting to be part of the Orgs.

Why would Siax being trying to overthrow something he wanted to be apart of. Let me answer that for you HE DID NOT TRUST XEMNAS OR HIS!!!

The facts don't point towards his unwilling participation, they point towards MX calling the shots. In fact, Nomura expressed Xigbar's pride in being a Xehanort, so there's potential for willing participants, even the traitor Saix. It can be argued that it can go both ways.

Once again your twisting things to fit your theory. Nomura did not express Xigbars pride in rather he pointed out that there was a reason why he able to say that. He was referencing the differences that allowed Xigbar and Siax to become half Xehanort's that the other failures did not.

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It is. But it's based off of the whole game series and how eyes are used to express something. Like how originally,basically, yellow eyes were meant to show evil and blue was good. Thing is you haven't really given any reason or examples for well....Anything really.

Well yes, we know that change in eye color tells us important things. But that doesn't mean we'll know what they mean when we get deviant cases like Xehanort's brown eyes, especially when we don't know the full extent of Xehanort's circumstances. 

This really is going nowhere...It's just getting boring now because I am trying to have a discussion with in games examples and everything else. But all you are doing is pretty much saying random things with nothing to really back it up.  I'm not saying theory's are bad or anything. It just makes it so I can't take a discussion seriously when it's just random statements with nothing to them. See ya.

 We just have different approaches. You guys reason through interpretation of material. I reason through interpretation of patterns. That's that. If you're gonna leave it at that last post, I think I might actually join you on that. But thanks for keeping patience.

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I really doubt AtW is a seeker. He hates Xehanort. Plus we actually know he's not because he and Aqua are in the RoD. And he lost all his memories. If anything he is a Nobody now.

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