This has been a confusing element of KH for me since the day I joined this site

 

Okay so when Sora and company meet Yen Sid in KH2, Yen Sid warns them that Nobodies don't have hearts, and that they must not be deceived... but to what end?

Later on, Demyx tells them that Nobodies do have hearts. "Don't be mad"

and then they angrily say they won't be fooled

Okay

but why?

What does the deception GAIN them? Why is it so important Sora not be deceived? How does it benefit a Nobody to trick Sora into thinking they have a heart?

Is there even a reason? Why draw attention to this and follow up with it later on?

 

Hmm. Well, it might have more to do with the "Do Nobodies truly have hearts or no?" angle the games were using before DDD finally settled the matter. If the answer was a definitive No, there wouldn't be so much attention drawn to it. Yen Sid could've just been telling Sora what was allegedly the facts, whereas those scenes with Demyx and Xemnas call it into question. Giving two sides to the same story. Of course, writing quirks means it wasn't much of a debate at all, as it was a common assumption among fans that there was probably more to the Nobodies than what Yen Sid said (their emotive behavior, and Roxas/Axel/Namine/Xion in general).

That may have been the intent, but unless Demyx secretly had a lot more insight into Xehanort's plan, then neither of them truly believed they had hearts

That may have been the intent, but unless Demyx secretly had a lot more insight into Xehanort's plan, then neither of them truly believed they had hearts

 

He could have been tricking himself into thinking he has a heart (Xemnas was deceiving everyone but Xigbar and [i think] Saix), because he wanted his heart back, so he was pretending. It's possible Demyx did have an inkling of a developing heart at the time, but it wasn't developed enough where he could fully feel anything. When Sora and Donald call him out on it, I guess he was like, "No, you're right. Die traitor." Cue dance water dance.

First of all, no one ever took Demyx seriously (except maybe Xaon but that's a different story).  Second,

 

I always thought it tied into the semi-tragic element of the Nobodies in that they've lost something that they still think they have, and they still try to act upon the emotions that they think they should be feeling. And given that they mean to do harm to Sora regardless, it means he shouldn't give in to his base instinct for pity.

We find out in Days that Nobodies know that they don't have hearts, or at least, that's what they thought they knew.  The fact that they could regrow hearts was a heavily guarded secret kept by Xemnas and Co., so no one, not even Yen Sid, knew about this (Yes, there is stuff Yen Sid doesn't know.  Shocking isn't it?).  So the emotions were real.  They were just duped into to thinking otherwise.

First of all, no one ever took Demyx seriously (except maybe Xaon but that's a different story).  Second,

 

We find out in Days that Nobodies know that they don't have hearts, or at least, that's what they thought they knew.  The fact that they could regrow hearts was a heavily guarded secret kept by Xemnas and Co., so no one, not even Yen Sid, knew about this (Yes, there is stuff Yen Sid doesn't know.  Shocking isn't it?).  So the emotions were real.  They were just duped into to thinking otherwise.

 

I didn't mean that they still think they have hearts, although seeing the wording of my post, I can see how it reads that way. I meant that some of them still try to act in a fashion as though they have emotions, when in reality they can't.

 

The fact that they actually had hearts the whole time is a part of the overall plot that I have chosen to ignore, as I've done with much of the elements DDD introduced into the series.

I didn't mean that they still think they have hearts, although seeing the wording of my post, I can see how it reads that way. I meant that some of them still try to act in a fashion as though they have emotions, when in reality they can't.

 

The fact that they actually had hearts the whole time is a part of the overall plot that I have chosen to ignore, as I've done with much of the elements DDD introduced into the series.

You mean like time travel?

First off, retcon or otherwise, it's canon, and needs to be addressed as such

Xemnas is trying to make them feel pity... okay, but it's not Sora and Riku who lack hearts, they'd be able to feel pity on way or another. Xemnas himself doesn't have to feel pity to try to get Sora to feel it (and Sora clearly does feel pity for the Nobodies come DDD)

But it's definitely not that cut and dry

Again, the big focus is not on "they will try to make you sympathize with them" it's focused on "they don't have hearts". Even if Xemnas had a heart, he could still try to win Sora over to his side. Having a heart or not isn't really relevant to that. If the intent was to remind Sora that HE can't make the Nobodies pity him, that'd make sense, but it's THEM trying to trick him.

 

Just because it's canon now doesn't mean it was intended back then so that fact does count.. Retcons can cause plotholes or other misinformation. Also he was pretending to be pitiful- no one ever said he actually ever really felt it himself . Point being to act pitiful to engage pity from them. Yes it's very cut and dry that he was trying to put on a facade thus why Sora called him out bc of it and the reason Yen Sid made a point to be weary of such acts. The point of saying they don't have hearts is to say they can never feel emotions so don't trust them pretending. Thus it's relevance .I'm not gonna go in circles with this.It's like you are pulling on straws and are thinking wayyyy to far into it .

Edited December 5, 201410 yr by Flaming Lea

 

First off, retcon or otherwise, it's canon, and needs to be addressed as such

Xemnas is trying to make them feel pity... okay, but it's not Sora and Riku who lack hearts, they'd be able to feel pity on way or another. Xemnas himself doesn't have to feel pity to try to get Sora to feel it (and Sora clearly does feel pity for the Nobodies come DDD)

But it's definitely not that cut and dry

Again, the big focus is not on "they will try to make you sympathize with them" it's focused on "they don't have hearts". Even if Xemnas had a heart, he could still try to win Sora over to his side. Having a heart or not isn't really relevant to that. If the intent was to remind Sora that HE can't make the Nobodies pity him, that'd make sense, but it's THEM trying to trick him.

 

Just because it's canon now doesn't mean it was intended back then so that fact does count.. Retcons can cause plotholes or other misinformation. Also he was pretending to be pitiful- no one ever said he actually ever really felt it himself . Point being to act pitiful to engage pity from them. Yes it's very cut and dry that he was trying to put on a facade thus why Sora called him out bc of it and the reason Yen Sid made a point to be weary of such acts. The point of saying they don't have hearts is to say they can never feel emotions so don't trust them pretending. Thus it's relevance .I'm not gonna go in circles with this.It's like you are pulling on straws and are thinking wayyyy to far into it .

 

But a person who has a heart could still talk about being pitiful to trick Sora. It's not reliant on the person having a heart, this the warning is useless

But a person who has a heart could still talk about being pitiful to trick Sora. It's not reliant on the person having a heart, this the warning is useless

 

Like I said don't think too hard into it and take it for what it's intended purpose is.Your head will hurt less that way

Edited December 5, 201410 yr by Flaming Lea

Like I said don't think too hard into it and take it for what it's intended purpose is.Your head will hurt less that way

my head will hurt either way, I have an ear infection!

Might as well make the most of it my scrutinizing video games

The problem here isn't them trying to trick Sora, it's more so moments of defeat for them that could throw Sora off in the first place. When they died, there was always this moment of sadness and they all cried out in pain for the most part. You can't pretend to feel if you haven't any idea of what feelings are. Every member had hearts though and their actions and words came from real feelings. However, at the time no one had any idea that the Organization had actual hearts. Sora's naive and childish for the most part. He'd be thrown off along with Donald and Goofy had Yen Sid never told him to remember their feelings as an act.  Sora would have been sympathetic and showed pity. That's a weakness that he mustn't let out.

 

This all leads to the raging anger Sora felt when it was revealed to him that these people all had hearts and he had gone around killing people who were lied to about having hearts, lied to about Kingdom Hearts. They all had a false goal with no real path and Sora stopped them every time. He felt anger, sadness, and regret. Had he known at the time he faced them originally, he wouldn't have defeated them.

Its cleared up in kh 3d, somewhat, but im not sure. They don't have hearts when they are first formed, but as time progresses, they develop hearts of their own. Xemnas lied to the organization members because he the plaN was to fill them with portions of xehanorts heart. if they knew theyd develop hearts on their own, theyd give up on the pkan, and the whole thing would be revealed.

 

I have a theory. Not sure how well it holds up, but here goes. If a nobody develops a strong bond with someone, or their original feelings when they were human were strong enough, their feelings start to manifest as a new heart. It'd make sense with roxas, but im still contemplating with the others. Maybe im just reading too much into things.

Edited December 6, 201410 yr by mistydolphin