I'm playing through Kingdom Hearts 2 again and after playing through X HD, I can't help but realize something fishy. *slight spoilers for X past this point*Hades calls Auron the "mother of all bad guys," and I can't help but wonder if that's just because he's a scary dude or there's something I forgot in X's story? All I recall Auron doing is keeping his promises, protecting summoners, and doing it all again from beyond the grave for Tidus. I remember that KH1 was canonically before X given Tidus' age at the time and Auron is noticeably younger here, so this must be before he served for Yuna if we're going to fit in the timelines here. Was there something bad that he did or is Square just alluding at his possible history prior to X here?You can see the cutscene I'm thinking of in question here: https://youtu.be/p6pWIHioOgg?t=3m12s

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by Snow

I think it was originally meant to be "mother of all badasses"

The KH cameos of the FF characters aren't from their "original" places. Sure allusions exist to their original selves, but they have different back-stories.

 

Peace!

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by Yuya Sakaki

The KH cameos of the FF characters aren't from their "original" places. They have different back-stories.Peace!

Even then, given Auron's character, what would he have done to be referred to as the mother of all bad guys? I might just be biased and believe Auron could never do anything wrong, but it just doesn't really make sense to me.

Auron says his "crime" is that he existed, but *checks KH2's script* when Sora and co. find the little statue that Hades used to possess him *cross-references with FFX's script* we hear lines that reference Auron in FFX trying to convince Braska and Jecht not to sacrifice themselves. I doubt KH and FFX directly intersect, so this is most likely just a strong nod to FFX. My guess is that Auron thinks his existence is a crime is because he became a ghost/unsent after trying and failing to prevent his charges from sacrificing themselves. Ghosts/unsent aren't meant to exist in the first place (though maybe Auron should check out Halloween Town...), which is bad enough on its own, but Auron probably considers it a sin because he became a ghost/unsent in the first place because of his failure. As for why Hades thinks he's the "mother of all bad guys," well... Auron thinks it's a sin, and this is Hades were talking about -- good enough for him, and hey, Auron would be a nice soul to keep on the shelf.

Even then, given Auron's character, what would he have done to be referred to as the mother of all bad guys? I might just be biased and believe Auron could never do anything wrong, but it just doesn't really make sense to me.

It's nothing. You can see that ingame too. Basically it's Hades the one who's confused.

 

BTW Nothing in KH is canon concerning the main FF games.

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by Sorarocks93

Auron says his "crime" is that he existed, but *checks KH2's script* when Sora and co. find the little statue that Hades used to possess him *cross-references with FFX's script* we hear lines that reference Auron in FFX trying to convince Braska and Jecht not to sacrifice themselves. I doubt KH and FFX directly intersect, so this is most likely just a strong nod to FFX. My guess is that Auron thinks his existence is a crime is because he became a ghost/unsent after trying and failing to prevent his charges from sacrificing themselves. Ghosts/unsent aren't meant to exist in the first place (though maybe Auron should check out Halloween Town...), which is bad enough on its own, but Auron probably considers it a sin because he became a ghost/unsent in the first place because of his failure. As for why Hades thinks he's the "mother of all bad guys," well... Auron thinks it's a sin, and this is Hades were talking about -- good enough for him, and hey, Auron would be a nice soul to keep on the shelf.

That actually makes perfect sense. Thank you for the response, clears it up pretty nicely.

 

It's nothing. You can see that ingame too. Basically it's Hades the one who's confused.

 

BTW Nothing in KH is canon concerning the main FF games.

I know nothing from KH is canon in FF. But I would expect them to borrow a bit of the story of the game they're from so they at least have a little context to their character. It could have just meant *as Draco said* that Auron feels he sinned by failing, and Hades uses this to his advantage, or just straight out that Auron's a badass.

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by Snow

Well first you have to keep in mind that the FF characters seen in Kingdom Hearts aren't the same people you know in their respective FF titles. Their stories, lives, struggles, and personalities are very similar, but they still have distinguishing traits that set them apart from their "prime" counterparts. That being said though, I do see your point in that it doesn't make much sense for Auron to be considered "the mother of all bad guys" when you have his personality in mind. Maybe it's possible that he failed in one of his duties and by laws of death or whatever he is confined to purgatory or something, sort of a top offenders' prison or something like that. It's a hard concept to get a hold of since you have to conceptualized Kingdom Hearts' concept of death, followed by the movie Hercules' concept of death, and then Final Fantasy X's concept of death. It's confusing to say the least, though KeybladeLordSora's explanation of it being "mother of all bad-asses" kind of makes more sense too, even if it is simplistic (or a joke, either way it works with me).

I always though it was just Hades hyping up Auron's cameo status

Hey everyone, new to this site and having just replayed FFX with the HD Remaster it got me thinking about Auron's appearance in KH2 again and I happened upon this topic.

 

I personally think it's a mix of different reasons why Hades and Auron consider him a "bad guy" or at least not a hero. A big theme of Hercules in the movie was that Hercules would not be able to obtain his Godhood again until he learns what it means to be a true Hero, throughout the entire film he has the godlike strength but is not immortal until the very end when he learns to cast aside his own self preservation and desire for glory and recognition as a hero in order to plunge into the bottomless pit of the undead in order to save Megara. This selfless act is what gave him back his godhood and made him a hero in the eyes of Olympus. 

 

Auron in FFX in the past desperately wanted Jecht and Braska to not sacrifice themselves for the sake of saving Spira, Jecht in a way was once a huge glory hog who loved to get attention but knew sacrificing himself was the only way for him and Braska to bring peace to Spria (the only way they believed worked anyway), he gave up on his desire to get home to Zanarkand so that they could end the suffering Sin brings. Both Jecht and Braska were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for others much like Herc was about to for Meg too but Auron on the other hand didn't want to see his friends die and probably deep down felt horrible that he himself wasn't willing to sacrifice his own life for Braska and Jecht in a way was more noble than he was for doing so despite Jechts somewhat more self obsessed personality. Enraged Auron tried to exact revenge on Yunalesca and blamed everything she stood for as the cause for Braska and Jecht's death and in the end it cost him his life when he tried to fight her, but he was unable to move on, he was unsatisfied with how he died and what he failed to accomplish and continued to exist with this feeling of guilt. In that sense, both Hades and Auron himself would see him as wreckless and selfish because that is how Auron keeps believing he was like for not being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of others. It's only at the end of FFX when they do find another way to defeat Sin and end the cycle that he feels he's atoned for what he did in the past and finally feels at peace with himself after existing with so much guilt but in the KH story it seems it's meant to be Auron before anything like this happened.

 

I think it also fits Auron's Ronin design, he's based off of the lone Samurai warrior who has no master (the one arm in the sleeve is a reference to them, his arm isn't actually injured as some believe), just a wandering aimless spirit angry with himself with no purpose much like the Samurai with no master who only works for money and doesn't follow the same code of honour as others. Samurai are also known for taking their own lives when they feel they have lost their honour, again something Auron didn't exactly do himself and his existence is because of the lack of honour he feels he has. I get the feeling the devs of KH saw the comparison of noble sacrifice shown in Hercules to Auron's lack of in FFX and his constant guilt holding him back from becoming a true hero in Kingdom Hearts despite what most players of the games would consider of his actions being seen as good, Hercules' actions in the movie were good too but not enough to be a true hero until the very end. 

 

Then again I could be looking into this too much, who knows?. 

And that, as they say, is that.