A possible flaw in the Kingdom Hearts story

[Varnish 319]

This may seem to be somewhat confusing, but here is what I think is a problem in Kingdom Hearts:

After Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas were created, what seemingly happened is that they both retained the memories of Apprentice Xehanort.

However, in the case of Sora and Roxas, Sora was a conscious Heartless in the same way that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was, but he said that he could feel himself "slipping away" in his state as a Heartless, meaning that he could feel his memories flowing into Roxas, which is what should happen when a Heartless and Nobody are created.

To summarise; Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas retained the same memories as their original self, but Roxas did not gain the memories of his original self. This happened due to the short amount of time that Sora spent as a Heartless, in contrast to the nine-or-so years that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness spent as a Heartless, but what is strange is that Sora was losing his memories to Roxas, while Ansem, Seeker of Darkness did not lose his memories to Xemnas, despite the fact that both of them were "sentient" Heartless.

Is this an inconsistency in the story, or is there simply too much that has not been explained?

[RoxSox 3,593]

It might be due to the different kinds of heartless they turned into. Sora turned into a mere shadow, whereas Ansem seeker of darkness was a full on human form heartless. Due to that, the circumstances could be wildly different.

 

Sora had an incredibly unique experience as a heartless, meaning the rules can change.

 

The guys below me explain it better.

Edited September 29, 2013 by RoxSoxKH

[corfidbizna 53]

Well technically, the slipping away of Sora's memories was merely due to him loosing himself to the darkness. Roxas doesn't really start getting any of Sora's memories until about a week later (Day 7) when Sora enters Castle Oblivion.

Usually when a Nobody and Heartless are created, the Nobody retains the will and body, whereas the Heartless retains the heart. Since there was more than one heart within Sora, this process got confused: the Heartless retained the will in addition to the heart; the Nobody (Roxas) got a body and heart, although neither of those were necessarily Sora's. (That's the simple version.)

 

In the case of the Seeker of Darkness, he didn't actually have the full-blown human form until he possessed Riku—before that he looked much more like a normal Heartless (that slumped over hooded figure). And while he didn't necessarily retain the apprentice's memories either, according to Dream Drop Distance, [Xehanort's] objective is etched into his heart, thus his Heartless and Nobody merely have the same goals.

 

I hope that made sense—I'm not really good at explaining things x_x

[CROW 115]

It might be due to the different kinds of heartless they turned into. Sora turned into a mere shadow, whereas Ansem seeker of darkness was a full on human form heartless. Due to that, the circumstances could be wildly different.

Not exactly. At first Ansem was that brown robed figure we see at the start of Kingdom Hearts. he only gained a physical form due to possessing Riku. (I got that right, right? lol)

 

Edit: I'm simply too slow with posting..

Edited September 29, 2013 by CROW

[RoxSox 3,593]

Not exactly. At first Ansem was that brown robed figure we see at the start of Kingdom Hearts. he only gained a physical form due to possessing Riku. (I got that right, right? lol)

 

Edit: I'm simply too slow with posting..

Ah, yes. Completely true, you're correct.

[Aang 649]

This may seem to be somewhat confusing, but here is what I think is a problem in Kingdom Hearts:

After Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas were created, what seemingly happened is that they both retained the memories of Apprentice Xehanort.

However, in the case of Sora and Roxas, Sora was a conscious Heartless in the same way that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was, but he said that he could feel himself "slipping away" in his state as a Heartless, meaning that he could feel his memories flowing into Roxas, which is what should happen when a Heartless and Nobody are created.

To summarise; Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas retained the same memories as their original self, but Roxas did not gain the memories of his original self. This happened due to the short amount of time that Sora spent as a Heartless, in contrast to the nine-or-so years that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness spent as a Heartless, but what is strange is that Sora was losing his memories to Roxas, while Ansem, Seeker of Darkness did not lose his memories to Xemnas, despite the fact that both of them were "sentient" Heartless.

Is this an inconsistency in the story, or is there simply too much that has not been explained?

 

That story does not check out.

[Hero of Light XIV 2,381]

Ah, yes. Completely true, you're correct.

 

Not exactly. At first Ansem was that brown robed figure we see at the start of Kingdom Hearts. he only gained a physical form due to possessing Riku. (I got that right, right? lol)

 

Edit: I'm simply too slow with posting..

 

Actually, there's a bit more to it than that...

 

As revealed in Dream Drop Distance, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, gained the ability to time travel, but in order for time travel in the Kingdom Hearts universe to work, there are several rules that must be applied:

 

1. You must leave your body behind.

 

2. There must be a version of you awaiting your destination.

 

3. Once you have arrived at your destination, you can only move forward, as per the laws of time.

 

4. Finally, you cannot rewrite the events that are destined to happen.

 

With the first rule in mind, we can assume that Ansem at first DID have a body to sacrifice in the first place. His form may have more or less exactly resembled what he would later look like possessing Riku. But the point of the idea is that he doesn't take on the appearance of a hooded figure, a wandering heart, until after he has time traveled into his own past. There, he meets with his past self, Young Xehanort, and passes on his power of time travel to him (whether he's been allowed to bend the rules and jump back and forth between past and future, or act very carefully by only traveling bit by bit into the future is yet unknown), leaving the frail Ansem to hide and remain on Destiny Islands for the next who knows how many years until the eventful day where Riku opens the door to the islands' heart. At that point, Ansem provides Riku with a corridor of darkness for him to travel to his first new world, Hollow Bastion. Since then his presence has been manipulating Riku along side Maleficent, drawing him closer and closer to the Darkness. He reveals himself to Riku again to possess his body with the promise of unlocking even more powers of darkness. With that done, Ansem uses Riku's body to more directly manipulate events to force Sora to release Kairi's heart from his body. Despite being beaten from Sora's burst of strength, Ansem had been given enough power (most likely from unsealing the final keyhole) to regain a physical appearance, sculpted from Riku's body. Having banished the last of Riku's consciousness from the Realm of Light, Ansem now has a body of his own, albeit partially stolen, but his appearance is still based off of his PAST past self, Master Xehanort, as well as Terra, to a lesser extent than Xemnas. He stays this way until Sora and co. defeat him with the light from Kingdom Hearts, Riku regains his physical appearance, gets trapped in the Realm of Darkness with King Mickey, and then the events of Chain of Memories take place, where Ansem's presence managed to hitchhike Riku's body upon Riku's regaining of a physical appearance.

 

It seems that Ansem seems to suffer this recurring theme of never staying fully physical for an extended period of time, unlike Xemnas who was able to stay as he was for about 10 whole years. Still, they each played their parts in the overall scheme of their original self, Master Xehanort, with only a few deviations into their own separate desires, which even then were still misleading. So while Ansem's story of having a body was confusing enough with the main numbered titles in the series, the hand held series added another level of complexity that makes it harder to figure out, but not impossible.

 

I hope that helped.

 

So, who wants to tackle the other plot holes in the series? I remember there being at least 10.

[CROW 115]

Actually, there's a bit more to it than that...

 

As revealed in Dream Drop Distance, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, gained the ability to time travel, but in order for time travel in the Kingdom Hearts universe to work, there are several rules that must be applied:

 

1. You must leave your body behind.

 

2. There must be a version of you awaiting your destination.

 

3. Once you have arrived at your destination, you can only move forward, as per the laws of time.

 

4. Finally, you cannot rewrite the events that are destined to happen.

 

With the first rule in mind, we can assume that Ansem at first DID have a body to sacrifice in the first place. His form may have more or less exactly resembled what he would later look like possessing Riku. But the point of the idea is that he doesn't take on the appearance of a hooded figure, a wandering heart, until after he has time traveled into his own past. There, he meets with his past self, Young Xehanort, and passes on his power of time travel to him (whether he's been allowed to bend the rules and jump back and forth between past and future, or act very carefully by only traveling bit by bit into the future is yet unknown), leaving the frail Ansem to hide and remain on Destiny Islands for the next who knows how many years until the eventful day where Riku opens the door to the islands' heart. At that point, Ansem provides Riku with a corridor of darkness for him to travel to his first new world, Hollow Bastion. Since then his presence has been manipulating Riku along side Maleficent, drawing him closer and closer to the Darkness. He reveals himself to Riku again to possess his body with the promise of unlocking even more powers of darkness. With that done, Ansem uses Riku's body to more directly manipulate events to force Sora to release Kairi's heart from his body. Despite being beaten from Sora's burst of strength, Ansem had been given enough power (most likely from unsealing the final keyhole) to regain a physical appearance, sculpted from Riku's body. Having banished the last of Riku's consciousness from the Realm of Light, Ansem now has a body of his own, albeit partially stolen, but his appearance is still based off of his PAST past self, Master Xehanort, as well as Terra, to a lesser extent than Xemnas. He stays this way until Sora and co. defeat him with the light from Kingdom Hearts, Riku regains his physical appearance, gets trapped in the Realm of Darkness with King Mickey, and then the events of Chain of Memories take place, where Ansem's presence managed to hitchhike Riku's body upon Riku's regaining of a physical appearance.

 

It seems that Ansem seems to suffer this recurring theme of never staying fully physical for an extended period of time, unlike Xemnas who was able to stay as he was for about 10 whole years. Still, they each played their parts in the overall scheme of their original self, Master Xehanort, with only a few deviations into their own separate desires, which even then were still misleading. So while Ansem's story of having a body was confusing enough with the main numbered titles in the series, the hand held series added another level of complexity that makes it harder to figure out, but not impossible.

 

I hope that helped.

 

So, who wants to tackle the other plot holes in the series? I remember there being at least 10.

About the thing with the Ansem's body. I think it was a little different.

 

I always understood it this way: Ansem SoD and Xemnas are the heartless and nobody of Terra possessed by Xehanort aka Terranort or Apprentice Xehanort. So when AX turned into heartless and nobody, Xemnas was the left behind body and soul, while Ansem SoD was merely a heart without a body, thus he left his body behind and was able to travel through time. He was then seen as the robed figure talking to young Xehanort on destiny islands. Later he was seen again on DI in the KHI timeline where he talked to Sora. Only when he possessed Riku, he gained a body of his own until he was then defeated by Sora, Donald and Goofy.

 

I don't know whether this is confirmed to be like this, but I'm pretty sure that's how it actually is.

[keystrike 145]

About the thing with the Ansem's body. I think it was a little different.

 

I always understood it this way: Ansem SoD and Xemnas are the heartless and nobody of Terra possessed by Xehanort aka Terranort or Apprentice Xehanort. So when AX turned into heartless and nobody, Xemnas was the left behind body and soul, while Ansem SoD was merely a heart without a body, thus he left his body behind and was able to travel through time. He was then seen as the robed figure talking to young Xehanort on destiny islands. Later he was seen again on DI in the KHI timeline where he talked to Sora. Only when he possessed Riku, he gained a body of his own until he was then defeated by Sora, Donald and Goofy.

 

I don't know whether this is confirmed to be like this, but I'm pretty sure that's how it actually is.

 

This is right. The whole DDD situation really doesn't change too much of the memory bit though. The situations with Terra-Xehanort and Sora becoming a heartless and nobody were both anomalies but that doesn't mean they were the exact same. Because of that I don't think there is enough of a connection to say that there is really any contradiction.

 

Edit: Whooh! 1,000 posts! 

Edited September 29, 2013 by keystrike

[Philip Ellwell 5,487]

This may seem to be somewhat confusing, but here is what I think is a problem in Kingdom Hearts:

After Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas were created, what seemingly happened is that they both retained the memories of Apprentice Xehanort.

However, in the case of Sora and Roxas, Sora was a conscious Heartless in the same way that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was, but he said that he could feel himself "slipping away" in his state as a Heartless, meaning that he could feel his memories flowing into Roxas, which is what should happen when a Heartless and Nobody are created.

To summarise; Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas retained the same memories as their original self, but Roxas did not gain the memories of his original self. This happened due to the short amount of time that Sora spent as a Heartless, in contrast to the nine-or-so years that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness spent as a Heartless, but what is strange is that Sora was losing his memories to Roxas, while Ansem, Seeker of Darkness did not lose his memories to Xemnas, despite the fact that both of them were "sentient" Heartless.

Is this an inconsistency in the story, or is there simply too much that has not been explained?

Way to ruin KH...

Anyway: Maybe there's a reason for it all. 

All will more than likely be revealed in KH III.

[CROW 115]

This is right. The whole DDD situation really doesn't change too much of the memory bit though. The situations with Terra-Xehanort and Sora becoming a heartless and nobody were both anomalies but that doesn't mean they were the exact same. Because of that I don't think there is enough of a connection to say that there is really any contradiction.

 

Edit: Whooh! 1,000 posts! 

Congratulations.

 

Well no, there is nothing definite I think, but this person said something pretty nice.

 

 

And while he didn't necessarily retain the apprentice's memories either, according to Dream Drop Distance, [Xehanort's] objective is etched into his heart, thus his Heartless and Nobody merely have the same goals.

While this is not entirely correct, as young Xehanort was speaking of himself and that the objective of his future self is now etched into his heart or more precisely his "path", he will take from his time in the past to the present is now part of him. The part that is nice here though is, that the same can be applied to Ansem SoD. Xemnas had either a part of or no memories at all of his two selfs at the start, I think that was mentioned somewhere. He regained most of it through visiting the Chamber of Repose. So he possibly had a basic idea of what his somebody's objective was. Another possibility could be he was visited by young Xehanort at some point, or this could've just happened additionally to the former. As for Ansem SoD, he is the heart, so it is likely that, since heart and memories are tightly linked, that he had full access to the memories and made use of them through time travelling and telling young Xehanort about what to do, giving him the same ability to travel through time.

 

About Sora, tbh that one kinda confuses me. I don't remember much about that instant when he turned into a heartless. But about Roxas and Xemnas. I mentioned before in this post that Xemnas had not all or even none of the memories of his two original personas. Roxas didn't either. But there are still differences between the two nobodies. while they are both special cases, they are not exactly the same.

Edited September 29, 2013 by CROW

[Uchiha 47]

Does anyone know how Ansem: SOD managed to have a form in Kingdom Hearts: COM? If Riku took back his body in the end of Kingdom Hearts, how does he manage this?

[CROW 115]

Does anyone know how Ansem: SOD managed to have a form in Kingdom Hearts: COM? If Riku took back his body in the end of Kingdom Hearts, how does he manage this?

I didn't play the game, so I searched the wiki. Apparantly a piece of Ansem SoD still remained in Riku during CoM and after a while in CO, he meets DiZ, who gives him a card to give Ansem physical form, so that Riku is able to defeat him once and for all. 

 

Not sure if the wiki is entirely trustworthy, but I guess that's it.

[Uchiha 47]

I didn't play the game, so I searched the wiki. Apparantly a piece of Ansem SoD still remained in Riku during CoM and after a while in CO, he meets DiZ, who gives him a card to give Ansem physical form, so that Riku is able to defeat him once and for all. 

 

Not sure if the wiki is entirely trustworthy, but I guess that's it.

You should play the Game Boy version, it's great!

 

So I guess when he appeared in front of Riku to begin with, it was just the projection, a projection of Ansem: SoD's darkness and consciousness that still lingered inside of Riku, the card allowed him to go inside himself and challenge him directly... Hmmm, so maybe he just destroyed Ansem: SoD's Consciousness but not his darkness and that's why Riku was still pained with it and eventually took on his form.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong people

[CROW 115]

You should play the Game Boy version, it's great!

I'll definitely do that someday

[MasterXemnas 2,285]

Fool. I thought Xion was stopping Roxas from getting all of Sora's memories. Plus Namine was messing with Sora's memories, so they couldn't get to Roxas.

[Varnish 319]

Fool. I thought Xion was stopping Roxas from getting all of Sora's memories. Plus Namine was messing with Sora's memories, so they couldn't get to Roxas.

That is not what happened. Sora's memories were flowing into Roxas, and then Xion, but some of Sora's memories always stayed in Roxas. Regardless, that has little to do with the subject. Also, Namine taking apart Sora's memories is why they went to Roxas.

 

You should play the Game Boy version, it's great!

 

So I guess when he appeared in front of Riku to begin with, it was just the projection, a projection of Ansem: SoD's darkness and consciousness that still lingered inside of Riku, the card allowed him to go inside himself and challenge him directly... Hmmm, so maybe he just destroyed Ansem: SoD's Consciousness but not his darkness and that's why Riku was still pained with it and eventually took on his form.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong people

As a "projection", it was always Ansem the Wise in disguise until the end of the game. In the moment after Lexaeus is killed, though, it was probably the real Ansem SoD who was trying to possess Riku inside Riku's heart.

 

 

This may seem to be somewhat confusing, but here is what I think is a problem in Kingdom Hearts:

After Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas were created, what seemingly happened is that they both retained the memories of Apprentice Xehanort.

However, in the case of Sora and Roxas, Sora was a conscious Heartless in the same way that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness was, but he said that he could feel himself "slipping away" in his state as a Heartless, meaning that he could feel his memories flowing into Roxas, which is what should happen when a Heartless and Nobody are created.

To summarise; Ansem, Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas retained the same memories as their original self, but Roxas did not gain the memories of his original self. This happened due to the short amount of time that Sora spent as a Heartless, in contrast to the nine-or-so years that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness spent as a Heartless, but what is strange is that Sora was losing his memories to Roxas, while Ansem, Seeker of Darkness did not lose his memories to Xemnas, despite the fact that both of them were "sentient" Heartless.

Is this an inconsistency in the story, or is there simply too much that has not been explained?

 

That story does not check out.

 

Well, are you going to explain why, or are you trying to annoy me?

 

Well technically, the slipping away of Sora's memories was merely due to him loosing himself to the darkness. Roxas doesn't really start getting any of Sora's memories until about a week later (Day 7) when Sora enters Castle Oblivion.

Usually when a Nobody and Heartless are created, the Nobody retains the will and body, whereas the Heartless retains the heart. Since there was more than one heart within Sora, this process got confused: the Heartless retained the will in addition to the heart; the Nobody (Roxas) got a body and heart, although neither of those were necessarily Sora's. (That's the simple version.)

 

In the case of the Seeker of Darkness, he didn't actually have the full-blown human form until he possessed Riku—before that he looked much more like a normal Heartless (that slumped over hooded figure). And while he didn't necessarily retain the apprentice's memories either, according to Dream Drop Distance, [Xehanort's] objective is etched into his heart, thus his Heartless and Nobody merely have the same goals.

 

I hope that made sense—I'm not really good at explaining things x_x

I do not think that that makes sense.

Roxas' body was Sora's, but his first heart was Ventus', but it was dormant, and so did not effect him for most of the time that it was in Roxas' body.

The reason for why Roxas started gaining Sora's memories is because Namine disconnected them. Most of Sora's memories were passed on to Xion from Roxas.

I do not think that the process of Sora's memories flowing into Roxas while Sora was a Heartless got "confused" because of the circumstances. I do not see why.

The fact that Xehanort's goals were "etched" into his heart makes some sense, but they would have needed to have memories to know what their goals were. Also, what do you mean by "he did not necessarily retain the apprentice's memories either"?