hi guys, so in KH3D we know that some of the members of the first org.XIII have returned as humans, but I just can't understand why did they took so long to returnlet's take Ienzo, he died as Zexion more than a year before 3D events!and even if we try explain this situation by saying that actually the org. members heartless were destroyed later than the nobodies(very very improbable), well Sora isn't slaying heartless since the end of KH2 so unless KH3D is immediately after KH2(which is not actually) I just can't explain why they have returned so lateplease tell me if you have any idea about this and thank you for reading

Edited February 26, 20169 yr by MasterLorX

hi guys, so in KH3D we know that some of the members of the first org.XIII have returned as humans, but I just can't understand why did they took so long to returnlet's take Ienzo, he died as Zexion more than a year before 3D events (1)!and even if we try explain this situation by saying that actually the org. members heartless were destroyed later than the nobodies(very very improbable) (2), well Sora isn't slaying heartless since the end of KH2 so unless KH3D is immediately after KH2(which is not actually) (3) I just can't explain why they have returned so late (4)please tell me if you have any idea about this and thank you for reading

1) and 4) Nomura logic.

2) Nobody (no pun intended) could know if their Heartless were destroyed before or after their Nobodies, but, it's pretty much probable that this happened before, since KH3D takes place right after KH2 and they (some of the Organization XIII members) were already revived by then (also, Sora slayed their Nobody version in Re:CoM and KH2, which means that, since some of the Organization members returned to life in 3D, their Heartless have already been destroyed) and, just like you said, there wasn't anybody around to destroy their Heartless version after KH2 (not counting Re: Coded, since the Heartless there are digital, not the real ones).

 

3) Wrong. KH3D takes place right after KH2. Maybe you're confused because of Re: Coded. Re: Coded takes place after the ending credits of KH2, but before the secret ending when Sora, Riku and Kairi receives Mickey's letter, you understand?

KH3D does take place right after KH2..

 

 

Anyways it's bc all the hearts from the slain heartless were trapped in Xemnas' artificial KH. All hearts were to go there until the artificial KH was destroyed- the slain org members hearts (heartless) and bodies ( nobodies) couldn't reunite and become human ( somebody) again until then. Nomura himself:

 

 

VIII - When the Heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

 

http://kh13.com/interviews/directors-secret-report-xiii-march-2007-x-tetsuya-nomura/

 

 

 Also for funsies.. Translated timeline from Days Ultimania how/when things went down in that time frame:: 

http://kh-info-block.tumblr.com/tagged/timeline

All the hearts belonging to the Organization XIII members were trapped inside Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts. Therefor they all came back at the same time.

KH3D is right after KH2.

KH3D does take place right after KH2..

 

 

Anyways it's bc all the hearts from the slain heartless were trapped in Xemnas' artificial KH. All hearts were to go there until the artificial KH was destroyed- the slain org members hearts (heartless) and bodies ( nobodies) couldn't reunite and become human ( somebody) again until then. Nomura himself:

 

 

VIII - When the Heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

 

http://kh13.com/interviews/directors-secret-report-xiii-march-2007-x-tetsuya-nomura/

 

 

 Also for funsies.. Translated timeline from Days Ultimania how/when things went down in that time frame:: 

http://kh-info-block.tumblr.com/tagged/timeline

Thank you Flaming Lea now I get it 

but still there's a particular I want to clarify: if I remember well Xemnas artificial KH is only made by the hearts contained inside emblem heartless, so does this have to mean all the heartless of the org.XIII were emblem and not pureblood? it is a bit hard to believe this especially for the original 6 members

or is it just me that haven't understood Xemnas artificial KH, also there's that scene where the hearts falling from the damaged KH transform into pureblood heartless!

I am very confused now :[

Edited February 26, 20169 yr by MasterLorX

They were all trapped in the artificial Kingdom Hearts.

 

3) Wrong. KH3D takes place right after KH2. Maybe you're confused because of Re: Coded. Re: Coded takes place after the ending credits of KH2, but before the secret ending when Sora, Riku and Kairi receives Mickey's letter, you understand?

I know the timeline is KH2->KHcoded->KH3D, the point is that I believe KH3D just does not take place the day after KH2 ending, in fact I belive KH2 secret ending takes place some time after KH2 ending ok? my problem was I find it strange that it would take more than a few HOURS for Lea and the others to return humans

 

at this point the only logical way to make the timeline compatible with the events is to "play" ourselves with time:

let's say that in the KH universe it actually takes some long time for someone to return a complete person (1-2 days)

then let's say that KH3D takes place something like 5-6 days after KH2 ending

and now let's say some more days have passed between Lea's awekening and him arriving at Disney castle

 

now this makes some sense(at least to me)

probably Nomura never needed to focus on this problem because he wanted us to imagine it the way we prefer it,

now just don't make me see someone returning human immidiately after the destruction of his heartless and nobody in KH3, understood Nomura? :sleep:

Edited February 26, 20169 yr by MasterLorX

KH3D does take place right after KH2..

 

 

Anyways it's bc all the hearts from the slain heartless were trapped in Xemnas' artificial KH. All hearts were to go there until the artificial KH was destroyed- the slain org members hearts (heartless) and bodies ( nobodies) couldn't reunite and become human ( somebody) again until then. Nomura himself:

 

 

VIII - When the Heartless are defeated, what becomes of the stolen hearts? Also, when members of Organization XIII and other Nobodies are defeated, do they return to their original form?

When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on. As for the whereabouts of hearts in KHII that turn up, this time they remarkably went to the Organization (there is a foot note here that says "In Kingdom Hearts II after Heartless were defeated, the many hearts were absorbed by the Kingdom Hearts of "people's hearts"). However, in the rare case that the body changed into a Nobody, when there is no container for the heart it resorts to a state of suspension.

In the case of a Nobody being defeated, it's a little more complicated. If the above mentioned hearts are liberated, they return to their original form. However, if the heart is still stolen by the Heartless, the Nobody's body is swallowed by darkness. If somewhere in the world their hearts are taken back, perhaps they might be able to return to their original human form.

 

http://kh13.com/interviews/directors-secret-report-xiii-march-2007-x-tetsuya-nomura/

 

 

 Also for funsies.. Translated timeline from Days Ultimania how/when things went down in that time frame:: 

http://kh-info-block.tumblr.com/tagged/timeline

 

Thanks for the link.  It's very helpful.

 

Thank you Flaming Lea now I get it 

but still there's a particular I want to clarify: if I remember well Xemnas artificial KH is only made by the hearts contained inside emblem heartless, so does this have to mean all the heartless of the org.XIII were emblem and not pureblood? it is a bit hard to believe this especially for the original 6 members

or is it just me that haven't understood Xemnas artificial KH, also there's that scene where the hearts falling from the damaged KH transform into pureblood heartless!

I am very confused now :[

 

I think it'll be easier if you don't overthink about that thing of pureblooded and emblem heartless, it'll be confusing. Pureblood heartless probably do help the artificial Kingdom Hearts, as Saïx summoned them to have Sora fight them in TWTNW (right before Xigbar), although he could have done it to get extra time.

 

Posibly all of the pureblooded heartless' hearts were those that fell into TWTNW while the emblem heartless' hearts were the ones that returned with their former selves or something.

 

The other posibility is that while the hearts returned to their former selves, what was left of them fell into TWTNW forming those Pureblood heartless.

 

 

 

However, if you are willing to hear my honest opinion about this, this is my answer: Nomura logic.

 

 

Side note: TWTNW is The World That Never Was, I wanted to make this clear just in case

I think it'll be easier if you don't overthink about that thing of pureblooded and emblem heartless, it'll be confusing. Pureblood heartless probably do help the artificial Kingdom Hearts, as Saïx summoned them to have Sora fight them in TWTNW (right before Xigbar), although he could have done it to get extra time.

I agree that Nomura logic might create everything, however in KHdays (please tell if I'm wrong) Mrluxia says ONLY emblem heartless are useful for the org. since they release a heart, so this means the heart "associated"(can't find a better word) with the destruction of a pureblood heartless does not end up in the artificial KH

I agree that Nomura logic might create everything, however in KHdays (please tell if I'm wrong) Mrluxia says ONLY emblem heartless are useful for the org. since they release a heart, so this means the heart "associated"(can't find a better word) with the destruction of a pureblood heartless does not end up in the artificial KH

Indeed, he did, but I prefer to think that it was just part of the game's mechanic rather than an important plot point.

 

Thank you Flaming Lea now I get it 

but still there's a particular I want to clarify: if I remember well Xemnas artificial KH is only made by the hearts contained inside emblem heartless, so does this have to mean all the heartless of the org.XIII were emblem and not pureblood? it is a bit hard to believe this especially for the original 6 members

or is it just me that haven't understood Xemnas artificial KH, also there's that scene where the hearts falling from the damaged KH transform into pureblood heartless!

I am very confused now :[

 

 

Well, the primary difference between purebloods and emblem is the method by which the human becomes that particular heartless...

 

- Purebloods come into existence by a heart being consumed by darkness

 

- Emblems come into existence artificially. The "artificial" process by which they are created, is a heartless taking the human's heart. You become an Emblem if an Emblem takes your heart.  They are also created by the machines Xehanort and the apprentices built beneath Hollow Bastion. 

 

 None of the org members return until after KH2 which makes sense because Xemnas's KH was absorbing all the freed hearts temporarily preventing their revival. Except that means their heartless had to be emblem heartless since he could only collect the hearts freed from emblem heartless.  We were originally lead to believe the apprentices would be purebloods ( they originally were suppose to have lost their hearts by consuming them in darkness during the experiments). DDD retcons this by showing AX stabbing them by surprise.

 

In other words retcon and Nomura logic.xDDDD

Well, the primary difference between purebloods and emblem is the method by which the human becomes that particular heartless...- Purebloods come into existence by a heart being consumed by darkness- Emblems come into existence artificially. The "artificial" process by which they are created, is a heartless taking the human's heart. You become an Emblem if an Emblem takes your heart. They are also created by the machines Xehanort and the apprentices built beneath Hollow Bastion. None of the org members return until after KH2 which makes sense because Xemnas's KH was absorbing all the freed hearts temporarily preventing their revival. Except that means their heartless had to be emblem heartless since he could only collect the hearts freed from emblem heartless. We were originally lead to believe the apprentices would be purebloods ( they originally were suppose to have lost their hearts by consuming them in darkness during the experiments). DDD retcons this by showing AX stabbing them by surprise.In other words retcon and Nomura logic.xDDDD

you know maybe it is actually possible the members heartless were emblems because well, xehanort with his dark powers might have altered (maybe as an experiment) the process of their hearts being consumed by darkness.or maybe the solution is simply retconning what Marluxia said and actually the artificial KH is also made of the hearts "connected"(again I can't find a better word) to the destruction of purebloodsI still haven't watched the movie but I am curious to see if that scene with Marluxia has been included in KH1.5I'd go check it now, but it's very late in Rome and I reeally wanna go to bed ahahah, tomorrow I'm surely gonna see it

Edited February 27, 20169 yr by MasterLorX

you know maybe it is actually possible the members heartless were emblems because well, xehanort with his dark powers might have altered (maybe as an experiment) the process of their hearts being consumed by darkness.or maybe the solution is simply retconning what Marluxia said and actually the artificial KH is also made of the hearts "connected"(again I can't find a better word) to the destruction of purebloodsI still haven't watched the movie but I am curious to see if that scene with Marluxia has been included in KH1.5I'd go check it now, but it's very late in Rome and I reeally wanna go to bed ahahah, tomorrow I'm surely gonna see it

 

 

We saw in the flashback in DDD Xehanort stabbed them with his keyblade so we know how they lost their hearts. But I wouldn't worry or stress over Nomura's logic and retcons or you will end up with ulcers

 

Well, the primary difference between purebloods and emblem is the method by which the human becomes that particular heartless...

 

- Purebloods come into existence by a heart being consumed by darkness

 

- Emblems come into existence artificially. The "artificial" process by which they are created, is a heartless taking the human's heart. You become an Emblem if an Emblem takes your heart.  They are also created by the machines Xehanort and the apprentices built beneath Hollow Bastion. 

 

 None of the org members return until after KH2 which makes sense because Xemnas's KH was absorbing all the freed hearts temporarily preventing their revival. Except that means their heartless had to be emblem heartless since he could only collect the hearts freed from emblem heartless.  We were originally lead to believe the apprentices would be purebloods ( they originally were suppose to have lost their hearts by consuming them in darkness during the experiments). DDD retcons this by showing AX stabbing them by surprise.

 

In other words retcon and Nomura logic.xDDDD

 

 

I didn't know that a heartless taking a heart was "artificial."  That's interesting.  Also, I'm pretty sure the stuff we were originally lead to believe is just MX's lies.

I didn't know that a heartless taking a heart was "artificial."  That's interesting.  Also, I'm pretty sure the stuff we were originally lead to believe is just MX's lies.

 

By artificial I mean the person themselves did not lose their heart to darkness by their own actions or self. Don't think too much into it. MX's lies= retcons. Same thing.

 

 None of the org members return until after KH2 which makes sense because Xemnas's KH was absorbing all the freed hearts temporarily preventing their revival. Except that means their heartless had to be emblem heartless since he could only collect the hearts freed from emblem heartless.  We were originally lead to believe the apprentices would be purebloods ( they originally were suppose to have lost their hearts by consuming them in darkness during the experiments). DDD retcons this by showing AX stabbing them by surprise.

 

In other words retcon and Nomura logic.xDDDD

 

Did they mention that in the game or in an interview? Because I didn't know that to be honest

Did they mention that in the game or in an interview? Because I didn't know that to be honest

 

I don't recall if either/ or or possibly both. Plus Marluxia as previously mentioned

I don't recall if either/ or or possibly both. Plus Marluxia as previously mentioned

Okay. But it's good to know, so thanks

By artificial I mean the person themselves did not lose their heart to darkness by their own actions or self. Don't think too much into it. MX's lies= retcons. Same thing.

 

Oh, so that's why Sora's heartless was a shadow - he took out his own heart.

 

As MX's lies - they are actually part of the story.  Using the word retcons sounds like the creators were lazy and just threw in new details that contradict the old ones.  That's not what happened.  Nomura may have come up those ideas later, but he worked it into the story.  When you look at it in the context of the KH universe, there were no added details - the lies and the truth they covered existed the whole time.  That's why I don't like using the word retcons in this context.  It makes it seem like there holes in the story that really aren't there.

Oh, so that's why Sora's heartless was a shadow - he took out his own heart.

 

As MX's lies - they are actually part of the story.  Using the word retcons sounds like the creators were lazy and just threw in new details that contradict the old ones.  That's not what happened.  Nomura may have come up those ideas later, but he worked it into the story.  When you look at it in the context of the KH universe, there were no added details - the lies and the truth they covered existed the whole time.  That's why I don't like using the word retcons in this context.  It makes it seem like there holes in the story that really aren't there.

 

Retcon is still a retcon no matter how you put it. ...Whether it takes a negative connotation is up to you. I don't mind them so i deal. Nomura has admitted to writing this as he goes so retcons do happen - some acceptable and some not so great.

Retcon is still a retcon no matter how you put it. ...Whether it takes a negative connotation is up to you. I don't mind them so i deal. Nomura has admitted to writing this as he goes so retcons do happen - some acceptable and some not so great.

 

But at least he covers his tracks and works it into the story.

But at least he covers his tracks and works it into the story.

 

In your opinion. Not everyones.

In your opinion. Not everyones.

 

 

True.  But what I like about it is how you can't really really tell.  If I didn't know better, I'd say the whole thing was written beforehand.

True.  But what I like about it is how you can't really really tell.  If I didn't know better, I'd say the whole thing was written beforehand.

 

I beg to differ.

I beg to differ.

 

Agree to disagree?