This is a gripe I've been having for almost a decade now even back when I loved the series

 

The decision of leaving crucial plot details and explanation out of the game and instead put them in Nomura interviews inside either Ultimania books or somewhere else

 

 

This is a really bad way to add on to your story cuz unless you're aware that said interview was conducted you'd be lost and confused on certain things that the game never bothered to elaborate on and even when it did it did through Xehanort & Ansem reports which are basically no different than consulting an in-game wikipedia like the datalog from Final Fantasy XIII where the game was too lazy to put crucial plot explanation in cutscenes or through gameplay so instead they hid it in the datalog

 

And speaking of Xehanort and Ansem Reports......at first I was fine with those in KH1 and to a little extent KH2 but it's with Birth by Sleep where I lost my patience with them for two reasons: 1They put stuff that should've been explained within the core game itself there lazily instead of explaining it in the core gameplay and cutscenes and 2Some of them got retconned later thanks to Dream Drop Distance

 

But at least those are inside the game and in English unlike Nomura interviews but still............why do I have to consult and outside source just to get the basic jest of a detail that by all means should've been explained in gameplay and cutscenes?

I can see your frustration with the Nomura interviews.... but with the reports? Really? I actually REALLY like that kinda stuff. It's a way to give backstory, but to not tell it outright where it doesn't really fit. Not to mention, none of the reports really have anything crucial to understanding the plot. It's for nerds like me to have some extra lore to work with.

I can see your frustration with the Nomura interviews.... but with the reports? Really? I actually REALLY like that kinda stuff. It's a way to give backstory, but to not tell it outright where it doesn't really fit. Not to mention, none of the reports really have anything crucial to understanding the plot. It's for nerds like me to have some extra lore to work with.

If you read what I wrote you'll know that I'm only frustrated with Birth by Sleep's reports

 

I never minded KH1 and 2's reports

If you read what I wrote you'll know that I'm only frustrated with Birth by Sleep's reports

 

I never minded KH1 and 2's reports

And I reiterate my point there. They aren't much different from the ones in 1 or 2's, even in terms of plot point revelations. 

This is a gripe I've been having for almost a decade now even back when I loved the series

 

The decision of leaving crucial plot details and explanation out of the game and instead put them in Nomura interviews inside either Ultimania books or somewhere else

 

 

This is a really bad way to add on to your story cuz unless you're aware that said interview was conducted you'd be lost and confused on certain things that the game never bothered to elaborate on and even when it did it did through Xehanort & Ansem reports which are basically no different than consulting an in-game wikipedia like the datalog from Final Fantasy XIII where the game was too lazy to put crucial plot explanation in cutscenes or through gameplay so instead they hid it in the datalog

 

And speaking of Xehanort and Ansem Reports......at first I was fine with those in KH1 and to a little extent KH2 but it's with Birth by Sleep where I lost my patience with them for two reasons: 1They put stuff that should've been explained within the core game itself there lazily instead of explaining it in the core gameplay and cutscenes and 2Some of them got retconned later thanks to Dream Drop Distance

 

But at least those are inside the game and in English unlike Nomura interviews but still............why do I have to consult and outside source just to get the basic jest of a detail that by all means should've been explained in gameplay and cutscenes?

I'm waiting for hardcore fanboys to defend this idea by saying it's due to hardware restrictions or some other lame excuse... 100% agree with you.

And I reiterate my point there. They aren't much different from the ones in 1 or 2's, even in terms of plot point revelations. 

Xehanort report No.VII got retconned in DDD

 

That.......and in 1 and 2's case they're mostly there to enrich the lore and explain Ansem The WiseAnsem SoD's experiments.......in BBS however it's either there to set up for stuff that'd be explained in the sequel or get retconned

Xehanort report No.VII got retconned in DDD

 

That.......and in 1 and 2's case they're mostly there to enrich the lore and explain Ansem The WiseAnsem SoD's experiments.......in BBS however it's either there to set up for stuff that'd be explained in the sequel or get retconned

Yeah, and nearly all of Ansem's reports in 1 were technically retconned as well. The series is full of retcons. I do get what you mean, though.

 

I'd argue they still enrich the lore... there's set up, but a lot of it applies to stuff in BBS exclusively.

Yeah, and nearly all of Ansem's reports in 1 were technically retconned as well. The series is full of retcons. I do get what you mean, though.

 

I'd argue they still enrich the lore... there's set up, but a lot of it applies to stuff in BBS exclusively.

Well I meant that they enriched the lore at the time of their release.........what BBS and DDD did in my eyes wasn't a good addition to the lore but rather made it convoluted that even when I understood it I didn't think it was good

Well I meant that they enriched the lore at the time of their release.........what BBS and DDD did in my eyes wasn't a good addition to the lore but rather made it convoluted that even when I understood it I didn't think it was good

To each his own, then. I don't think the reports really made anything more convoluted, but that's just me... it seems like you're leaning more towards the games themselves judging by the end there, and that's a bit more agreeable, at least with regards to DDD.

Well I meant that they enriched the lore at the time of their release.........what BBS and DDD did in my eyes wasn't a good addition to the lore but rather made it convoluted that even when I understood it I didn't think it was good

KHII and it's 'Ansem isn't really Ansem, but the apprentice of the real Ansem named Xehanort, whose Heartless took on the name Ansem and his Nobody Xemnas' made things more convoluted than really anything in BBS and DDD, to the point that even the characters get confused to this day. Ventus/Roxas and all of the dream crap doesn't even come close. 

To each his own, then. I don't think the reports really made anything more convoluted, but that's just me... it seems like you're leaning more towards the games themselves judging by the end there, and that's a bit more agreeable, at least with regards to DDD.

I'm one who subscribe to the belief that all necessary information should be explained within the game's core gameplay and story be it through character interactions,interactions with NPCs(which KH has none off in the handheld games ).......etc without consulting an outside source.I can let the reports slide cuz at least those are collected in game

 

 

But Nomura interviews....no no no no no it's complete bullshit that Nomura withholds such informations from the fans and instead hide it in Japanese-only Ultimania books that some people(especially newcomers) aren't even aware of

KHII and it's 'Ansem isn't really Ansem, but the apprentice of the real Ansem named Xehanort, whose Heartless took on the name Ansem and his Nobody Xemnas' made things more convoluted than really anything in BBS and DDD, to the point that even the characters get confused to this day. Ventus/Roxas and all of the dream crap doesn't even come close. 

Dude....I know,.....I've been a fan for like a decade now and I can differenciate Ansem The Wise from Ansem SoD and Apprentice Xehanort

 

And yeah those stuff were convoluted too but they're still at the realm of believability

 

Unlike everything in Birth by Sleep which I hate to death

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by Smash Mega Koopa

But Nomura interviews....no no no no no it's complete bullshit that Nomura withholds such informations from the fans and instead hide it in Japanese-only Ultimania books that some people(especially newcomers) aren't even aware of

Yep. Even though I'm a nerd that looks into these things, for the average joe it really just doesn't make sense.

Supplementary maybe. Crucial? No. Pay attention to the cutscenes, read the in-game writings, and finely tune yourself to the mysticism of it all, and it comes out better than you think.

Sometimes, Nomura intentionally places ambiguity in order to have the Kingdom Hearts community theories. But like you said, there's just certain moment in which his storytelling is too convoluted for its own good by exclusively placing information during interviews. At the very least, Kingdom Hearts is not as hard to follow as Final Fantasy XIII.

Supplementary maybe. Crucial? No. Pay attention to the cutscenes, read the in-game writings, and finely tune yourself to the mysticism of it all, and it comes out better than you think.

Been paying attention to those cutscenes and rewatched them countless times throughout my ten years as a KH fan and I completely disagrees with you

 

the mystique of it all is lost when some details are hidden in outside sources and heck from how much I rewatched them I began to notice the flaws in the writing process and some plot holes(Like how the firetruck in KH1 Donald and Goofy say they don't know the keyblade when they saw one with Mickey 10 years ago in BBS) and questionable writing

 

I didn't get into this series yesterday y'know and at this point in life I'm 26 years old and my outlook and way of thinking regarding story telling has changed

Sometimes, Nomura intentionally places ambiguity in order to have the Kingdom Hearts community theories. But like you said, there's just certain moment in which his storytelling is too convoluted for its own good by exclusively placing information during interviews. At the very least, Kingdom Hearts is not as hard to follow as Final Fantasy XIII.

Well in FFXIII literally 90% of the game happen behinds your back....all the crucial stuff are hidden in datalog while the main game is mostly repetitive conversations about their focus and the phrase "L'cie,enemy of cocoon" being thrown so many times you can play a drinking game to it

I honestly don't care about that stuff at this point because I don't want to overthink the series as a whole. As long as I get whole entire point and the moral(if it has one) in the games, I don't really care about the things that don't make sense. It is fun to think about it though

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by Zeldablade7

(Like how the firetruck in KH1 Donald and Goofy say they don't know the keyblade when they saw one with Mickey 10 years ago in BBS)

 

 When did they ever show that they had no knowledge of the Keyblade? They simply followed their task by the King, which was to find the "King", and they obviously accomplished that task when they found Sora and his Keyblade. When they first meet, it's not a statement of "Oh hey, what's this thing that this kid has", it's "Hey, this must obviously be the thing that our King sent us to find".

 

I'm a 19 year old college student in a creative writing course and I can attest to most of what the series is trying to pontificate on, so take that for what you will. Agree to disagree, moving on.

Jumping to conclusions again, I see. When did they ever show that they had no knowledge of the Keyblade? They simply followed their task by the King, which was to find the "King", and they obviously accomplished that task when they found Sora and his Keyblade. When they first meet, it's not a statement of "Oh hey, what's this thing that this kid has", it's "Hey, this must obviously be the thing that our King sent us to find".

 

I'm a 19 year old college student in a creative writing course and I can attest to most of what the series is trying to pontificate on, so take that for what you will. Agree to disagree, moving on.

 

Just because you and I don't see eye to eye doesn't make my opinion or criticism invalid

 

You like Kingdom Hearts the way it is now that's fine that's perfectly fine.

 

Disagree if you want but all of this is my opinion and mine alone.

Just because you and I don't see eye to eye doesn't make my opinion or criticism invalid

 

You like Kingdom Hearts the way it is now that's fine that's perfectly fine.

 

 

Disagree if you want but all of this is my opinion and mine alone.

 

That's what I meant. It's your opinion.

KHII and it's 'Ansem isn't really Ansem, but the apprentice of the real Ansem named Xehanort, whose Heartless took on the name Ansem and his Nobody Xemnas' made things more convoluted than really anything in BBS and DDD, to the point that even the characters get confused to this day. Ventus/Roxas and all of the dream crap doesn't even come close.

Really? I never found that confusing in the least. Maybe because Mickey just straight up says it and we don't have to relay on a so called "acid" cutscene that I watch and then wonder "what the heck just happened?

Really? I never found that confusing in the least. Maybe because Mickey just straight up says it and we don't have to relay on a so called "acid" cutscene that I watch and then wonder "what the heck just happened?

It's more confusing in the sense that it was unnecessary. It's a needless complication in addition to everything else you have to keep track of. And the worst of it is it's almost played like a running joke. Even up to DDD, you've got characters saying "Ansrm, I mean Xehanort ('s Heartless)

yea that's the problem with writing a series as you go along. there really are better ways to explain your game than just discussing it in a random interview that many people won't read.

 

it'd be really interesting to get the opinions of someone who only just played the games and never looked into any information outside of what the games present and just see how well they can connect the dots.

 

we should just start calling interviews with Nomura, "Nomura Reports" because they contain just as much backstory and world building as the actual Ansem and Xehanort Reports.

It's more confusing in the sense that it was unnecessary. It's a needless complication in addition to everything else you have to keep track of. And the worst of it is it's almost played like a running joke. Even up to DDD, you've got characters saying "Ansrm, I mean Xehanort ('s Heartless)

Y'know...........I kinda miss the old days when the concept for Xehanort was simple 

 

Back then he was just an apprentice of Ansem The Wise who desired to reach Kingdom Hearts by any means necessary and he split himself into a heartless and a nobody

 

Nowadays he's that bald old man who possessed KH's version of Aniken Skywalker(A.K.A Terra )who sent his heartless to time travel to bring his past self who wants to make an organization that consists of nothing but clones of himself who may or may not be manipulated by a hidden force we won't know about until we see the Back Cover shit from 2.8 and do you see how needlessly convoluted this has become

 

 

They spent all this time convoluting everything around Xehanort to make him appear as this god-tier villain and completely ignored making him a well written villain

 

I can't take Xehanort seriously nowadays with the whole "It was part of my plan all along mwahahaha I meant for that blue haired girl to kick my ass so I can find 12 more people so I can have two boys kick my ass so I can be revived again"..............Xehanort is a joke and I hope that after KH3 we get a new villain and never see Xehanort ever  again

Y'know...........I kinda miss the old days when the concept for Xehanort was simple 

 

Back then he was just an apprentice of Ansem The Wise who desired to reach Kingdom Hearts by any means necessary and he split himself into a heartless and a nobody

 

Nowadays he's that bald old man who possessed KH's version of Aniken Skywalker(A.K.A Terra )who sent his heartless to time travel to bring his past self who wants to make an organization that consists of nothing but clones of himself who may or may not be manipulated by a hidden force we won't know about until we see the Back Cover shit from 2.8 and do you see how needlessly convoluted this has become

I don't miss that. Know why? Because this was always intended. And it's obvious that it was always intended because the hints were there even in the vanilla release, the mysteyr surrounding who Xehanort is, as well as the Birth by Sleep secret ending. Xehanort being that bald old man was always the intention. And personally, I like BBS's story. I don't think it convoluted Xehanort anymore than KHII did. The only point of confusion is the 'do you create the X-blade with two hearts or not?' thing which got retconned in DDD. I guess it's up to personal preference but MX is one of my favorite villains. 

 

Besides, it's obvious it's not just MX planning all of this. Xehanort's Heartless, Xemnas, young Xehanort; they're all basically distinct beings who take on his traits even if they're all 'him'. Yeah, MX started it and he'll be there by the end but it's obvious his plan is fluid. It's changed since BBS, even if slightly. 

 

Contrast that with the very much not planned change to have ANSEM, SEEKER OF DARKNESS actually have the name Xehanort for no reason. Like the Marathon Retrospective guy pointed out, they could have easily given Ansem the Wise a completely different name and it would have worked way better. Instead they confused everything and now Xehanort's Heartless always has the stigma of being called Ansem for no good reason. 

 

 

 

I can't take Xehanort seriously nowadays with the whole "It was part of my plan all along mwahahaha I meant for that blue haired girl to kick my ass so I can find 12 more people so I can have two boys kick my ass so I can be revived again"..............Xehanort is a joke and I hope that after KH3 we get a new villain and never see Xehanort ever  again

He didn't intend on Terra's armor kicking his ass, either. His plan was to seek out thirteen individuals to create the Keyblade War (which is ultimately what his other halfs end up doing) and using Terra's body was the easiest way to do it cause he's so old. Getting beaten and living as an amnesiac for a year was not his plan, it merely produced his Heartless and Nobody which both tried to do what he wanted in their own way. 

 

Now, you could argue the time-travel thing was what elevates him to a villain who's too convenient but I liked that, too. It gave the formless, robed 'Ansem' something to do more than just wait on Destiny Islands forever. Plus given the nature of reality and everything in KH, it's not too much of a stretch that you can magically travel through time, too. (Also I've never bought that Timeless River was a one-time thing.) Sure, it gets even more complicated and I'm not even disputing that (trying to wrap your head around everything in DDD is pretty much impossible) but it all started not with Master bald man taking over Terra's body, but with that damn name change Nomura only did because he liked the name Xehanort and didn't know where else to put it. That's when this series got needlessly convoluted.

 

As for MX's character, again, we all have different opinions. 

Edited June 8, 20169 yr by Kaweebo

I don't miss that. Know why? Because this was always intended. And it's obvious that it was always intended because the hints were there even in the vanilla release, the mysteyr surrounding who Xehanort is, as well as the Birth by Sleep secret ending. Xehanort being that bald old man was always the intention. And personally, I like BBS's story. I don't think it convoluted Xehanort anymore than KHII did. The only point of confusion is the 'do you create the X-blade with two hearts or not?' thing which got retconned in DDD. I guess it's up to personal preference but MX is one of my favorite villains. 

 

Besides, it's obvious it's not just MX planning all of this. Xehanort's Heartless, Xemnas, young Xehanort; they're all basically distinct beings who take on his traits even if they're all 'him'. Yeah, MX started it and he'll be there by the end but it's obvious his plan is fluid. It's changed since BBS, even if slightly. 

 

Contrast that with the very much not planned change to have ANSEM, SEEKER OF DARKNESS actually have the name Xehanort for no reason. Like the Marathon Retrospective guy pointed out, they could have easily given Ansem the Wise a completely different name and it would have worked way better. Instead they confused everything and now Xehanort's Heartless always has the stigma of being called Ansem for no good reason. 

 

 

He didn't intend on Terra's armor kicking his ass, either. His plan was to seek out thirteen individuals to create the Keyblade War (which is ultimately what his other halfs end up doing) and using Terra's body was the easiest way to do it cause he's so old. Getting beaten and living as an amnesiac for a year was not his plan, it merely produced his Heartless and Nobody which both tried to do what he wanted in their own way. 

 

Now, you could argue the time-travel thing was what elevates him to a villain who's too convenient but I liked that, too. It gave the formless, robed 'Ansem' something to do more than just wait on Destiny Islands forever. Plus given the nature of reality and everything in KH, it's not too much of a stretch that you can magically travel through time, too. (Also I've never bought that Timeless River was a one-time thing.) Sure, it gets even more complicated and I'm not even disputing that (trying to wrap your head around everything in DDD is pretty much impossible) but it all started not with Master bald man taking over Terra's body, but with that damn name change Nomura only did because he liked the name Xehanort and didn't know where else to put it. That's when this series got needlessly convoluted.

 

As for MX's character, again, we all have different opinions. 

It's fine to have a differing opinion as long as we respect each other

 

Although the reason I said what I said above is that.........in my eyes what we got in KH1,CoM and KH2 was already good enough and we could've gone to KH3 with that and add a little bit more to it. I don't necessarily think the original intended idea was that good.................it's kinda like the Star Wars prequel trilogy

 

Sure the prequels was George Lucas's intended vision for Star Wars but they were terrible 

 

Sometimes you gotta sacrifice some intended concepts to have more cohesion and stable structure to the plot

 

Besides,most of what Nomura did was more making things up as he goes than ideas on the backburner that he hasn't used

Edited June 8, 20169 yr by Smash Mega Koopa

It's fine to have a differing opinion as long as we respect each other

 

Although the reason I said what I said above is that.........in my eyes what we got in KH1,CoM and KH2 was already good enough and we could've gone to KH3 with that and add a little bit more to it. I don't necessarily think the original intended idea was that good.................it's kinda like the Star Wars prequel trilogy

 

Sure the prequels was George Lucas's intended vision for Star Wars but they were terrible 

 

Sometimes you gotta sacrifice some intended concepts to have more cohesion and stable structure to the plot

 

Besides,most of what Nomura did was more making things up as he goes than ideas on the backburner that he hasn't used

I can't fault you for your opinion, but the comparison to Lucas is 100% wrong. None of the stuff in the Prequels was always intended. That was written up on its own. It's just the fact that it sucked. And tbh, it's not even so much that it sucked in it of itself, just that Lucas kept so much of the control to himself that none of the movies were peer-reviewed creatively.

 

Nomura, by contrast, while he's the head guy, has a team of people who all have their own input. And personally, any changes he's made creatively, better or worse, are leagues beyond the buttfiretruckery Lucas put upon his own franchise. I can admit that KH has faults, a lot of faults, but none of them even come close to the Prequel trilogy.

Edited June 8, 20169 yr by Kaweebo