Hey everyone! I'm just curious what other people think.

When Michael B. Jordan and Zendaya took on roles that were traditionally white (Johnny Storm and possibly Mary Jane Watson respectively), people scream that race doesn't matter as long as they "fit" or "embody" the role (which I agree with). However, when Scarlett Johansson and Tilda Swinton (two incredibly talented actresses) take roles that were originally meant to be Asian (The Major from Ghost in the Shell and The Ancient One) people start complaining about "white-washing".

It seems like an unfair standard, or maybe I'm missing something? Idk. Thoughts please.

The main thing is that there are proportionately fewer roles for non-white actors and actresses, especially in super hero films, so that when a story has a character of, in the case of Ghost in the Shell, Asian descent, then basically denying that role to Asian actors is kind of a dick move. Another good example is how The Great Wall movie is casting Matt Damon in the main role when it makes zero sense for him to do so, historically or culturally. It seems like a double standard to only apply the culture swapping criticism to one side, but when a good chunk of the main starring roles are going to whites, the fact is that the double standard is going the other way. 

It'll all depend on how well a character is portrayed by an actor. Yes, some characters are meant to be played by Asian actors, but that doesn't mean that they are able to find an Asian that can play the role as well as they hope. How they find these actors is what should be concerning.

Who cares what role they are meant to be? As long as they do a good job in the role then why do black people need to complain and why do white people need to complain and why do Asian people need to complain?

 

Racism goes away when people stop caring about what skin colours people possess and start looking at the characteristics of the individual person.

 

Stop faffing about what type of skin colour this person's role should be and what it shouldn't be. It's a work of fiction. There's much more important things to be worried about than imaginary racism in Hollywood.

Edited August 19, 20169 yr by Shinobi Bacon and Eggs

Personally, I don't care what race you are, only if you're good at acting the role you get, and neither should Hollywood. For one, judging race over talent would be the real act of racism, like if say, you hired an Asian person to play a role over a Caucasian just because the former was Asian and a racial minority even though the Caucasian was the better actor.

 

There are examples where race really doesn't play a factor at all, too. Going back to Fant-Four-Stick (still calling it that btw), giving Johnny Storm a black actor in the form of Michael B. Jordan was fine because Johnny Storm's character has never been about race. His main schtick is a guy with fire powers, it has nothing to do with the color of his skin. The movie itself handles this in-universe by explaining that Sue Storm, a Caucasian woman, is related to Johnny through adoption. It all checks out. So yeah, a race change is definetly the least of this film's problems (which are many).

 

Frankly, if people are concerned about "white-washing" then they should concern themselves about film industries in other countries giving roles to Caucasian actors. It's only fair, right?

 

so that when a story has a character of, in the case of Ghost in the Shell, Asian descent, then basically denying that role to Asian actors is kind of a dick move.

 

All that said, I agree that this ^ in particular is kind of sketchy. But it's not done out of racism. Maybe lack of knowledge or total ignorance of the source material at best (which would make sense given that this is another Western studio trying to make an anime movie...). And to be fair, the whole "Japanese people vs. Japanese fictional characters" argument goes into many tangents regarding Japanese animation formats and what really defines its characters as "Asian only" and how it can be seen by different perspectives based on the complexity of different style choices and yadda yadda yadda. Too many words. Somebody get Yuno for this.

 

Here's the honest truth: Scarlet Johansson is a name that will attract more people to the movie and give the studio more money. Casing well known actors in films to boost popularity and sales. Hollywood 101. Yes, it would be more appropriate if an Asian actress played Kusanagi, but we don't have any big Asian actors that can play this role. Unless, you know, the studio decides to make an even major change by making Kusanagi a male so they can capitalize on John Cho or someone else similar.

 

But overall, no, I don't think that Hollywood is inherently racist. Clueless, maybe, but not racist.

Edited August 19, 20169 yr by Firaga Sensei

This also probably has something to do with the old studio system. With moviegoers being predominently white, it wasn't seen as an issue when a white celebrity, under a studio contract that dictated they appear in multiple films, took on an ethnic role. But now it seems that celebrity casting is starting to matter a bit less than the type of movie being made.

 

It's worth noting, though, that Scarlett Johanssen is getting at worst an indifferent reaction from Japanese fans.

Edited August 19, 20169 yr by Andrew Rowland

I recommend you watch this:

 

If the film has a cultural or historical setting, they could at least attempt to cast actors that fit into that category. Take the film Gods of Egypt for example. I must have skipped the class in Egyptian history where the Egyptians were primarily Caucasian. That film could have easily fill in more ethnic actors into their cast, but the roles were primarily filled by whites. It's kind of insulting to the culture to not even attempt to cast ethnicities that fit the settings they portray. If films like 300, Dracula Untold, Troy can cast ethnicities that makes sense to their respective settings it's not that hard.

 

The reason why I argue this is because generally people associate those portrayals with the actual culture, even if it's not necessarily accurate. I know this doesn't apply to everyone but to the uneducated masses it sticks. I've literally had people ask me "What's the big deal weren't the Egyptians white?". I know this doesn't apply to everyone but it does apply to a lot of people. Let's take Harry Potter and The Cursed Child for another example. People were OUTRAGED that Hermione Granger, and Rose Weasely were cast by a black actor. Why? Because the illustrators for the book portrayed her white. The publishers portrayed her white on their book covers portrayed her white. And the films cast Emma Waston (Who did a beautiful job in her portrayal, no problems there) also white. Essentially, every non story portrayals presented the image of a white Hermione perpetuating the idea that this was 'normal' set in stone what she was. Even myself as a child viewed Hermione as white, because that what illustrations in the books and on the covers presented her as. It never occurred to me that she could be any other race until I was much older. Because based on her canon physical description, she was at the very least bi-racial. But people refuse to believe that as even a slight possibility, because they have been taught that white Hermione is normal, and view any other race as abnormal, which is wrong.

 

As Dave pointed the double standard goes out both ways. So there is hypocrisy on both ends of the spectrum for sure. But when the double standard is done more often on one end, you have to consider the source.

 

Racism goes away when people stop caring about what skin colours people possess and start looking at the characteristics of the individual person.

Stop faffing about what type of skin colour this person's role should be and what it shouldn't be. It's a work of fiction. There's much more important things to be worried about than imaginary racism in Hollywood.

It's extremely frustrating when people suggest that ignoring racism where it occurs will alleviate the problem. If you have an infected wound do you ignore it and focus on the parts of your body that aren't wounded? No, you treat the wound until it's better. Racism will go away when people stop treating like it's an "imaginary" concept and address it as a problem, and take steps to fix those problems.

If the film has a cultural or historical setting, they could at least attempt to cast actors that fit into that category. Take the film Gods of Egypt for example. I must have skipped the class in Egyptian history where the Egyptians were primarily Caucasian. That film could have easily fill in more ethnic actors into their cast, but the roles were primarily filled by whites. It's kind of insulting to the culture to not even attempt to cast ethnicities that fit the settings they portray. If films like 300, Dracula Untold, Troy can cast ethnicities that makes sense to their respective settings it's not that hard.

The reason why I argue this is because generally people associate those portrayals with the actual culture, even if it's not necessarily accurate. I know this doesn't apply to everyone but to the uneducated masses it sticks. I've literally had people ask me "What's the big deal weren't the Egyptians white?". I know this doesn't apply to everyone but it does apply to a lot of people. Let's take Harry Potter and The Cursed Child for another example. People were OUTRAGED that Hermione Granger, and Rose Weasely were cast by a black actor. Why? Because the illustrators for the book portrayed her white. The publishers portrayed her white on their book covers portrayed her white. And the films cast Emma Waston (Who did a beautiful job in her portrayal, no problems there) also white. Essentially, every non story portrayals presented the image of a white Hermione perpetuating the idea that this was 'normal' set in stone what she was. Even myself as a child viewed Hermione as white, because that what illustrations in the books and on the covers presented her as. It never occurred to me that she could be any other race until I was much older. Because based on her canon physical description, she was at the very least bi-racial. But people refuse to believe that as even a slight possibility, because they have been taught that white Hermione is normal, and view any other race as abnormal, which is wrong.

As Dave pointed the double standard goes out both ways. So there is hypocrisy on both ends of the spectrum for sure. But when the double standard is done more often on one end, you have to consider the source.It's extremely frustrating when people suggest that ignoring racism where it occurs will alleviate the problem. If you have an infected wound do you ignore it and focus on the parts of your body that aren't wounded? No, you treat the wound until it's better. Racism will go away when people stop treating like it's an "imaginary" concept and address it as a problem, and take steps to fix those problems.

Huh? I never said we should ignore it... I said you should stop caring about what other people's skin colours are. I have no clue where you're getting that from.

Stop faffing about what type of skin colour this person's role should be and what it shouldn't be. It's a work of fiction. There's much more important things to be worried about than imaginary racism in Hollywood.

Right here implies that racism in Hollywood portrayals is imaginary. When generally speaking it isn't, it exists. Regardless of what end of the spectrum it falls on, If it happens a lot why wouldn't people be upset and focus on it.

It goes both ways really. Its ridiculous that we as a society focus on this, rather than being entertained and whether or not the film itself is good. I don't care what race anyone is, so long as the film is entertaining I'm happy. From these recent films, to Black Annie, to Black karate kid, and even that new movie with Matt Damon in it. We should simply focus on whether or not we were entertained at the end of the day.

 

 

Here's the honest truth: Scarlet Johansson is a name that will attract more people to the movie and give the studio more money. Casing well known actors in films to boost popularity and sales. Hollywood 101. Yes, it would be more appropriate if an Asian actress played Kusanagi, but we don't have any big Asian actors that can play this role. Unless, you know, the studio decides to make an even major change by making Kusanagi a male so they can capitalize on John Cho or someone else similar.

 

A big part of casting is how much of a draw the name will be, for sure, but the thing is, it ultimately becomes something of a self fulfilling prophecy if the big roles in the big movies only go to white actors/actresses, who in turn become big from said roles, while denying the same big ticket roles to actors of color and thus denying them the chance to be on the same marketing level.

When they white wash a film, I feel that it doesn't mean they feel contempt for the original. Rather the director attempts to make the film more culturally suitably for the target audience in his own way. Try giving the 'The Ring' or 'The Grudge' series a go, watch both the original japanese and the english version and you'll notice that things are different (but the main skeleton of the story is intact). Have a think about why is it.

 

With that said, there could very well be racial discrimination in Hollywood films but its hard to say if it was incidental or intentional (for the film/story effect).

A big part of casting is how much of a draw the name will be, for sure, but the thing is, it ultimately becomes something of a self fulfilling prophecy if the big roles in the big movies only go to white actors/actresses, who in turn become big from said roles, while denying the same big ticket roles to actors of color and thus denying them the chance to be on the same marketing level.

You can't have more John Cenas, if John Cena is constantly marketed over other candidates.

Edited August 20, 20169 yr by Robbie the Wise

A big part of casting is how much of a draw the name will be, for sure, but the thing is, it ultimately becomes something of a self fulfilling prophecy if the big roles in the big movies only go to white actors/actresses, who in turn become big from said roles, while denying the same big ticket roles to actors of color and thus denying them the chance to be on the same marketing level.

 

Fair point. But you also have to keep in mind that America is mostly comprised of white people, so maybe the talent pool is just filled more with them other than people of color. Maybe we need more actors and actresses of color to join the film industry. And like I mentioned before, foreign countries like China and India produce movies that only star their country's main ethnicities too, so does that mean that we should be seeing Caucasian actors in those types of movies too? You can't really please everybody.

 

Plus, in the end, some studios just don't want to take that gamble and instead play it safe or, as I mentioned before, don't give a crap. So it is what it is.

 

I recommend you watch this:

 

 

Actually, I'd recommend you don't. This video skirts around the issue and takes it into a lot of different directions and doesn't really address the problem directly.

 

Right here implies that racism in Hollywood portrayals is imaginary. When generally speaking it isn't, it exists. Regardless of what end of the spectrum it falls on, If it happens a lot why wouldn't people be upset and focus on it. 

 

Hollywood has definetly had a history with things such as blackface and the like, but the fact of the matter is that racism will only end if people stop putting so much focus on it.

 

You can't have more John Cenas, if John Cena is constantly marketed over other candidates. 

 

Wasn't expecting this, but hey, might as well take advantage of wrestling related talk:

 

For one thing, that doesn't have anything to do with race. It has to do with star power. John Cena is where he is because he has massive star power. Not everybody can as talented as John Cena in that regard. It's the same thing as regardless of what the color of your skin is, the reality is that your chances of landing a movie role depends on your talent.

Edited August 20, 20169 yr by Firaga Sensei

Fair point. But you also have to keep in mind that America is mostly comprised of white people, so maybe the talent pool is just filled more with them other than people of color. Maybe we need actors and actresses of color to join the film industry. And like I mentioned before, foreign countries like China and India produce movies that only star their country's main ethnicities too, so does that mean that we should be seeing Caucasian actors in those types of movies too? You can't really please everybody.

 

Plus, in the end, some studios just don't want to take that gamble and instead play it safe or, as I mentioned before, don't give a crap. So it is what it is.

 

 

 

Actually, I'd recommend you don't. This video skirts around the issue and takes it into a lot of different directions and doesn't really address the problem directly.

 

 

 

Hollywood has definetly had a history with things such as blackface and the like, but the fact of the matter is that racism will only end if people stop putting so much focus on it.

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't expecting this, but hey, might as well take advantage of wrestling related talk:

 

For one thing, that doesn't have anything to do with race. It has to do with star power. John Cena is where he is because he has massive star power. Not everybody can as talented as John Cena in that regard. It's the same thing as regardless of what the color of your skin is, the reality is that your chances of landing a movie role depends on your talent.

My joke had nothing to do with race lol. But it was parallels what Dave was talking about. Yes, John Cena is a huge brand name. But he got there because the business invested in him and cultivated that brand. However you can't fault other stars for not having a John Cena caliber level, when the business refuses to promote new stars and cultivate new brands with them. It's not even that other talent isn't good enough. Look at CM Punk arguably the best overall star of the modern era. Yet he never reached that same John Cena level, because the business refused to invest in him the same way they did John Cena. The same thing with Hollywood, you can't fault non Caucasians for not having a presence in Hollywood when the roles are automatically given out to big name brands, and they're denied those opportunities.

 

As for your point about ignoring racism, I'll pose the same question I posed to Shinobi. If you have an infected wound, does ignoring it cause it to go away? No, only by addressing it as a problem and treating it, does it go away.

My joke had nothing to do with race lol.

 

Alright, then I'll just talk about the wrestling part and not the race part.

 

However you can't fault other stars for not having a John Cena caliber level, when the business refuses to promote new stars and cultivate new brands with them. It's not even that other talent isn't good enough. Look at CM Punk arguably the best overall star of the modern era. Yet he never reached that same John Cena level, because the business refused to invest in him the same way they did John Cena.

 

The problem wasn't that CM Punk wasn't talented enough, it's that he was a whiny douchebag that wanted everything to be about him and was dissatisfied with how the company treated him even though they let him hold the top strap for two straight years. You can blame the company for their own faults as well, but the fact is that Punk wasn't a saint in that incident either. Plus, in the WWE, you can't expect to be on John Cena's level if you have zero charisma. That's why an internet darling like Cesaro isn't getting pushed, because regardless of his wrestling ability, he can't work a promo to save their lives. WWE is an entertainment company. You have to be entertaining.

 

Besides, have you really paid attention to the WWE product as of late? John Cena might as well be a part-timer. If WWE really doesn't have any faith in anybody else, they wouldn't have let Dean Ambrose be their champion, nor would they let a guy like Dolph Ziggler get a title match this Sunday. Nor would they let Finn Balor or Seth Rollins main event for a brand new world title. AJ Styles himself is facing John Cena this Sunday as well, as has a high chance of pinning him. Whether or not they can fill their roles is another thing entirely, but still, the bottom line cuz Stone Cold said so is they are where they are because the company deems them worthy.

 

As for your point about ignoring racism, I'll pose the same question I posed to Shinobi. If you have an infected wound, does ignoring it cause it to go away? No, only by addressing it as a problem and treating it, does it go away.

 

Every problem is different and has a different solution. For the case of ending racism, the sooner that we stop letting the color of one's skin affect our judgements is when we solve that particular problem. How else can we solve it? What is "treating racism" in your mind?

Edited August 20, 20169 yr by Firaga Sensei

Alright, then I'll just talk about the wrestling part and not the race part.

 

 

 

The problem wasn't that CM Punk wasn't talented enough, it's that he was a whiny douchebag that wanted everything to be about him and was dissatisfied with how the company treated him even though they let him hold the top strap for two straight years. You can blame the company for their own faults as well, but the fact is that Punk wasn't a saint in that incident either. Plus, in the WWE, you can't expect to be on John Cena's level if you have zero charisma. That's why an internet darling like Cesaro isn't getting pushed, because regardless of his wrestling ability, he can't work a promo to save their lives. WWE is an entertainment company. You have to be entertaining.

 

Besides, have you really paid attention to the WWE product as of late? John Cena might as well be a part-timer. If WWE really doesn't have any faith in anybody else, they wouldn't have let Dean Ambrose be their champion, nor would they let a guy like Dolph Ziggler get a title match this Sunday. Nor would they let Finn Balor or Seth Rollins main event for a brand new world title. AJ Styles himself is facing John Cena this Sunday as well, as has a high chance of pinning him. Whether or not they can fill their roles is another thing entirely, but still, the bottom line cuz Stone Cold said so is they are where they are because the company deems them worthy.

 

 

 

Every problem is different and has a different solution. For the case of ending racism, the sooner that we stop letting the color of one's skin affect our judgements is when we solve that particular problem. How else can we solve it? What is "treating racism" in your mind?

He might have had the top strap for tiers but he was billed as second tier. In fact John Cena was headlining more PPVs during Punks title reign the Punk himself, and most of the ones he was headlining involved Cena. Punk had his faults I agree, but you can't blame him for being frustrated, when he was billed as second tier, despite being an absolute workhorse during that timeframe. As for the current situation yes I acknowledge that they're given the other guys a chance, but they don't have much a choice John Cena's train isn't going to run forever, something they realized in the past year or so. But I digress because we're kinda getting off topic lol( We'll have to have this discussion in private another. I miss wrestling discussion).

 

Back on topic, as I've said before, to me it doesn't matter in most genres of fiction, because most of the time those portrayals are open to interpretation. I just think in instances where historical, or cultural settings play a huge role in the film, it's important to at least try to diversify and maintain some sort of accuracy. Idk maybe that's the historian in me. I think there is certainly room for improvement in that area of film.

as I've said before, to me it doesn't matter in most genres of fiction, because most of the time those portrayals are open to interpretation. I just think in instances where historical, or cultural settings play a huge role in the film, it's important to at least try to diversify and maintain some sort of accuracy. Idk maybe that's the historian in me. I think there is certainly room for improvement in that area of film.

 

I agree in that regard. If it the role is supposed to be centered around race, then of course you should cast an actor/actress who fits that race. A good actor/actress, hopefully, but one that fits the role regardless. It doesn't make logical sense for a white person to play a slave in the 1800s or something of that manner.

Well, racism has always been active, be it in Hollywood or in other forms of media!  And I don't get why this is!  I mean, an actor should be praised for their talents and what they bring to the table, not their skin color!  It still strikes me as insulting that black actors don't get any recognition at the Oscars!  To the best of my knowledge, I believe Will Smith has never earned an Oscar, ya know?  And that's just messed up!  That dude has been in amazing films, and has made amazing roles!  If a movie such as The Pursuit Of Happiness didn't get him an Oscar, then what will?  Because the guy has an impressive resume of films, and has had a successful career! And yet he's never gotten an Oscar!  What's up with that?

 

But yeah, I dunno, in the end, it all just depends on the people casting the people they want for their films, ya know?  Whether it's racism or not, that's how it goes, apparently!

The Pursuit of Happiness, iirc, is his only "Oscar" film. Kinda limits opportunities for a win-or even a nomination-when you consider Academy preferences.

Edited August 21, 20169 yr by Andrew Rowland