DISCLAIMER:Everything and anything I say here is a matter of subjective personal opinion.It's not forced upon you,you don't have to agree with it.And as long as we respect each other everything will be fine

 

 

The Final Fantasy series has been known for reinventing it's mechanics ever since the second game on NES(remember when you had to hit your own party to level up their stats.....UGHHHH)but in general the series,from 1 all the way up to 10,was more or less adding and experimenting on an already existing system since the ATB feels like a natural extension to the usual Turn based battle system that exist in JRPGs.XI was an MMO so the change there isn't unfamiliar to the MMORPG community and FF XII's system is more or less a modified version of of an MMO battle system that would suit a single player experience,but from 2007 onward Square has been experimenting with Action-based battle systems.It worked for small scale projects like Crisis Core FFVII on the PSP but on home console releases like Dirge of Cerberus or mainline games like the XIII trilogy and XV it ranged from a mixed bag in XV to a big failure  in XIII where the battles felt like it's on auto-pilot with little input from the player beyond paradigm shifting.

 

 

It might be just me but personally:I don't think an action RPG mainline Final Fantasy title would work,not without suffering from major issues

 

 

*Meanwhile somewhere out there someone is shouting at me*

 

Ok here me out.The series from the very beginning,wasn't built for action based combat from the ground up.The reason this type of combat worked for games like Secret of Mana or the Kingdom Hearts series was because those were built with action RPG elements from the get-go where you control one character and to compensate for the party's AI your characters are usually designed to fill bits and pieces of each role so that you won't get screwed and good game design that even if your party constantly dies you still can beat it on your own with enough item,MP management and strategy which is why Kingdom Hearts 2 worked so well

 

In modern Final Fantasy however they try to force action elements into it with mixed results and sometimes complete failures.in Final Fantasy XIII,you only control one character in a pseudo action\somewhat ATB battle system where your party is controlled by the AI and unless you have enough TP to cast the spell Libra,your party members will be rock stupid and rarely will they ever cast the spell you ever want them to even when you shift their paradigm roles.For example:I once was at a very low HP,the lowest of my party and I'm only one hit from death,shift my party to medic while I'm on sentinel anticipating a heal while defending from an upcoming attack,instead Hope doesn't heal me and go to heal Fang instead,and since if you(the party leader) die it's instant game over,I had to redo the entire dumb long battle with the Proudclad all over again just because of circumstances beyond my control.It begs for you to have complete control over your party like the older games yet it doesn't do the setup the Gambit system offers nor does it give you the option to move and dodge like a proper action game to avoid getting screwed by your party members.It only gives you 10% of control over what role your party should be and insist on you controlling one person with a level up system that artificially locks you at the level the game wants you to be in so no grinding either until you beat the boss.The game isn't hard by any means cuz like I said once you cast libra and remember when to shift paradigms you'll auto-battle your way to victory but the fact that each normal enemy boss has a mountain of HP and your AI do whatever they want can screw you over on multiple occasions is just not a good game design when it's up to RNG not your performance

 

Final Fantasy XV is nowhere near as bad sure but it's still a big problem despite the game's easiness.I like the game but it's still a huge issue

 

Your party's AI is so incompetent and rock stupid in this game it's almost like you have a party of three Donalds that can't heal 

 

They stupidly charge into danger,barely guard when they need to,die all the time to the point I had to spend over 5 Phoenix Downs,30 hi potions and 7 Elixirs just to keep the assholes alive because YOU WILL NEED THEM as your team up attacks and tech attacks are the best way to deal damage in the game with how useless summons and magic are.Sure you can set Ignis to heal using potions but doing so will cause him to drain your potions like nothing else.This might not be a problem on most story missions,but on sidequests,superbosses and  Raid missions it gets infuriating(and no wait mode doesn't fix the issue either and it's one of my biggest gripes with Final Fantasy XV

 

 

They desperately try to shift the series to an action oriented franchise yet they can't seem to integrate them without putting you in dozens of situations where you wish you could just CONTROL what the dumb AI on your team does rather than design the game around the fact that you control only one person.They want an action game that heavily conflicts with the ideology of Final Fantasy as an RPG franchise that emphasizes party management and strategy over button mashing and fear that unless they use dat quote unquote "BOOHOO DATED TURN BASED COMBAT" that they won't get their precious sales

 

Let's look at Resident Evil 7,yes it's a different genre but it's a good example of returning to roots and selling millions.

For years Capcom and the gaming industry claimed that survival horror is such an outdated relic that won't sell in today's market yet time and again games like Amnesia,Outlast...etc proves that there is a market for it and lo and behold,Resident Evil 7 returned to it's survival horror while incorporating elements from Amnesia and Outlast and proved to be a success

 

That's a proof that the old style of the series was never outdated,it's just a stupid thought the industry decided on for no reason

 

Heck Square's own game,Bravely Default,sold so well that Square themselves were so surprised that the genre THEY USED TO PIONEER is still making money for them(those out of touch CEOs and investors never cease to amaze me).Heck Pokemon,a series that's been turn based for 21 years now has been selling double the amount FFXV sold with each and every entry with Pokemon Sun & Moon selling over 14 million units in the span of three months compared to FFXV's 6 million units

 

To add to that,despite how fast the original XIII and FFXV sold,neither of them reached the sales of the original Final Fantasy VII which sold over 10 million units.Yes the market was different back then but the fact remains that,despite them reinventing the series to be more action based over and over again they still can never reach the milestone that "EWW TURN BASED" game reached heck they didn't even get close to the amounts 8 and 10 sold either.XV might sold it's sweet 6 million mark for the short term but whether it maintains a steady long term profit is debatable regardless of the DLC support of(paid story DLC stuff that should've been in the game)

 

What made XV sold over 6 million units is not the fact that it's an action game.It's because of a very aggressive marketing campaign, the recognition of a brand that's been going for 30 years and finally the return of one of the elements that defined a Final Fantasy game:An explorable world

 

Much like survivor horror,turn based was never outdated.It's just a different genre on it's own that has as much right to live and have it's own market as action RPGs

 

Shoving a genre like Action RPGs to Final Fantasy ignorantly without knowing what made either work caused the series to suffer from an identity crisis for almost a decade.

 

I still believe that it's possible to make a AAA Final Fantasy game that's true to it's roots(much like RE7's return to survival horror) that still can sell millions of units without having to go through nonsensical revisions and identity crises.

 

I'm not saying that a great action RPG Final Fantasy game can't be done but so far only small scale projects like Crisis Core proved to excel in that while suffering when it's applied to mainline.I'm very doubtful of the Final Fantasy VII remake being able to acheive the essence of what made the original the beloved classic it was when Nomura is bragging about how he will change everything yet contradict himself by saying he'll still maintain the essence of the original.

 

But hey that's just an opinion,A PEEERSONAL OPINION,thanks for reading (Watch out Matpat,Personal Opinion will give Game Theory a run for it's money )

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:Everything and anything I say here is a matter of subjective personal opinion.It's not forced upon you,you don't have to agree with it.And as long as we respect each other everything will be fine

 

 

The Final Fantasy series has been known for reinventing it's mechanics ever since the second game on NES(remember when you had to hit your own party to level up their stats.....UGHHHH)but in general the series,from 1 all the way up to 10,was more or less adding and experimenting on an already existing system since the ATB feels like a natural extension to the usual Turn based battle system that exist in JRPGs.XI was an MMO so the change there isn't unfamiliar to the MMORPG community and FF XII's system is more or less a modified version of of an MMO battle system that would suit a single player experience,but from 2007 onward Square has been experimenting with Action-based battle systems.It worked for small scale projects like Crisis Core FFVII on the PSP but on home console releases like Dirge of Cerberus or mainline games like the XIII trilogy and XV it ranged from a mixed bag in XV to a big failure  in XIII where the battles felt like it's on auto-pilot with little input from the player beyond paradigm shifting.

 

 

It might be just me but personally:I don't think an action RPG mainline Final Fantasy title would work,not without suffering from major issues

 

 

*Meanwhile somewhere out there someone is shouting at me*

 

Ok here me out.The series from the very beginning,wasn't built for action based combat from the ground up.The reason this type of combat worked for games like Secret of Mana or the Kingdom Hearts series was because those were built with action RPG elements from the get-go where you control one character and to compensate for the party's AI your characters are usually designed to fill bits and pieces of each role so that you won't get screwed and good game design that even if your party constantly dies you still can beat it on your own with enough item,MP management and strategy which is why Kingdom Hearts 2 worked so well

 

In modern Final Fantasy however they try to force action elements into it with mixed results and sometimes complete failures.in Final Fantasy XIII,you only control one character in a pseudo action\somewhat ATB battle system where your party is controlled by the AI and unless you have enough TP to cast the spell Libra,your party members will be rock stupid and rarely will they ever cast the spell you ever want them to even when you shift their paradigm roles.For example:I once was at a very low HP,the lowest of my party and I'm only one hit from death,shift my party to medic while I'm on sentinel anticipating a heal while defending from an upcoming attack,instead Hope doesn't heal me and go to heal Fang instead,and since if you(the party leader) die it's instant game over,I had to redo the entire dumb long battle with the Proudclad all over again just because of circumstances beyond my control.It begs for you to have complete control over your party like the older games yet it doesn't do the setup the Gambit system offers nor does it give you the option to move and dodge like a proper action game to avoid getting screwed by your party members.It only gives you 10% of control over what role your party should be and insist on you controlling one person with a level up system that artificially locks you at the level the game wants you to be in so no grinding either until you beat the boss.The game isn't hard by any means cuz like I said once you cast libra and remember when to shift paradigms you'll auto-battle your way to victory but the fact that each normal enemy boss has a mountain of HP and your AI do whatever they want can screw you over on multiple occasions is just not a good game design when it's up to RNG not your performance

 

Final Fantasy XV is nowhere near as bad sure but it's still a big problem despite the game's easiness.I like the game but it's still a huge issue

 

Your party's AI is so incompetent and rock stupid in this game it's almost like you have a party of three Donalds that can't heal 

 

They stupidly charge into danger,barely guard when they need to,die all the time to the point I had to spend over 5 Phoenix Downs,30 hi potions and 7 Elixirs just to keep the assholes alive because YOU WILL NEED THEM as your team up attacks and tech attacks are the best way to deal damage in the game with how useless summons and magic are.Sure you can set Ignis to heal using potions but doing so will cause him to drain your potions like nothing else.This might not be a problem on most story missions,but on sidequests,superbosses and  Raid missions it gets infuriating(and no wait mode doesn't fix the issue either and it's one of my biggest gripes with Final Fantasy XV

 

 

They desperately try to shift the series to an action oriented franchise yet they can't seem to integrate them without putting you in dozens of situations where you wish you could just CONTROL what the dumb AI on your team does rather than design the game around the fact that you control only one person.They want an action game that heavily conflicts with the ideology of Final Fantasy as an RPG franchise that emphasizes party management and strategy over button mashing and fear that unless they use dat quote unquote "BOOHOO DATED TURN BASED COMBAT" that they won't get their precious sales

 

Let's look at Resident Evil 7,yes it's a different genre but it's a good example of returning to roots and selling millions.

For years Capcom and the gaming industry claimed that survival horror is such an outdated relic that won't sell in today's market yet time and again games like Amnesia,Outlast...etc proves that there is a market for it and lo and behold,Resident Evil 7 returned to it's survival horror while incorporating elements from Amnesia and Outlast and proved to be a success

 

That's a proof that the old style of the series was never outdated,it's just a stupid thought the industry decided on for no reason

 

Heck Square's own game,Bravely Default,sold so well that Square themselves were so surprised that the genre THEY USED TO PIONEER is still making money for them(those out of touch CEOs and investors never cease to amaze me).Heck Pokemon,a series that's been turn based for 21 years now has been selling double the amount FFXV sold with each and every entry with Pokemon Sun & Moon selling over 14 million units in the span of three months compared to FFXV's 6 million units

 

To add to that,despite how fast the original XIII and FFXV sold,neither of them reached the sales of the original Final Fantasy VII which sold over 10 million units.Yes the market was different back then but the fact remains that,despite them reinventing the series to be more action based over and over again they still can never reach the milestone that "EWW TURN BASED" game reached heck they didn't even get close to the amounts 8 and 10 sold either.XV might sold it's sweet 6 million mark for the short term but whether it maintains a steady long term profit is debatable regardless of the DLC support of(paid story DLC stuff that should've been in the game)

 

What made XV sold over 6 million units is not the fact that it's an action game.It's because of a very aggressive marketing campaign, the recognition of a brand that's been going for 30 years and finally the return of one of the elements that defined a Final Fantasy game:An explorable world

 

Much like survivor horror,turn based was never outdated.It's just a different genre on it's own that has as much right to live and have it's own market as action RPGs

 

Shoving a genre like Action RPGs to Final Fantasy ignorantly without knowing what made either work caused the series to suffer from an identity crisis for almost a decade.

 

I still believe that it's possible to make a AAA Final Fantasy game that's true to it's roots(much like RE7's return to survival horror) that still can sell millions of units without having to go through nonsensical revisions and identity crises.

 

I'm not saying that a great action RPG Final Fantasy game can't be done but so far only small scale projects like Crisis Core proved to excel in that while suffering when it's applied to mainline.I'm very doubtful of the Final Fantasy VII remake being able to acheive the essence of what made the original the beloved classic it was when Nomura is bragging about how he will change everything yet contradict himself by saying he'll still maintain the essence of the original.

 

But hey that's just an opinion,A PEEERSONAL OPINION,thanks for reading (Watch out Matpat,Personal Opinion will give Game Theory a run for it's money )

10000000000000% agree. Final Fantasy was never an ARPG and never should be, too many people keep throwing out the idea of how ARPGS are so modern and popular (Yet Persona and Pokemon sell more than KH........) and how FF should adapt with the time. The only reason FF15 and 7R are ARPGS are because Nomura was/is the director, if anyone else besides him and Tabata directed the games they would use an ATB system, I can guarantee it. If you want an ARPG, go play DMC, KH or whatever else. FF should stay as an ATB/turn based system, Dissidia should appease people who want an ARPG. 

Edited March 2, 20178 yr by The 13th Kenpachi

While I had zero issues with the gameplay of XV myself, I really would prefer the ATB or turn based

Final Fantasy has not, to me, been defined by its combat system. Taking a look at the evolution through SNES, PS1, PS2, PC, PS3/Xbox 360, and finally PS4/Xbox One, there has been a different system for every game. We do tend to overlook the MMOs, but in fact, the MMOs are a very big sign of this. However nostalgic fans will be regardless, gameplay has to evolve. Every one of the people I've talked to have had mixed opinions, but generally, they're not fond of turn based combat anymore.

 

Even if FF went back to turn based, it still doesn't define what FF really is. FF is about story, crystals, characters, betrayal, fantasy, monsters. That's what FF has been all through these years. I don't care if FF had a TPS element to it, it's still FF. The label obviously didn't matter when FFXV was VsXIII. It didn't matter when Crisis Core was given to us. So why now?

 

For FF games, I'm going to focus on the world rather than the gameplay. However, I love action RPGs because of the engagement and immersion. I think that one of the best things about FFXV was its combat.

Final Fantasy has not, to me, been defined by its combat system. Taking a look at the evolution through SNES, PS1, PS2, PC, PS3/Xbox 360, and finally PS4/Xbox One, there has been a different system for every game. We do tend to overlook the MMOs, but in fact, the MMOs are a very big sign of this. However nostalgic fans will be regardless, gameplay has to evolve. Every one of the people I've talked to have had mixed opinions, but generally, they're not fond of turn based combat anymore.

 

Even if FF went back to turn based, it still doesn't define what FF really is. FF is about story, crystals, characters, betrayal, fantasy, monsters. That's what FF has been all through these years. I don't care if FF had a TPS element to it, it's still FF. The label obviously didn't matter when FFXV was VsXIII. It didn't matter when Crisis Core was given to us. So why now?

 

For FF games, I'm going to focus on the world rather than the gameplay. However, I love action RPGs because of the engagement and immersion. I think that one of the best things about FFXV was its combat.

Changing genres isn't technically evolution

 

Evolving is by improving on the formula you created not blindly mimicing the market trend without knowing how such trend worked

 

ARPGs and Turn based RPGs are not even in the same genres,they're two different beasts

 

For MMOs what they did is no different from what MMOs do at the time.It's the same as FFXII except you play with other friends and come up with plans.XI and XIV are like traditional FF experiences but with an MMO twists allowing you to form huge parties with other human players

 

Yes Story does define FF but so is gameplay,if they wanna go full ARPG they should do the system similar to Kingdom Hearts not the mess they concoct with games like XIII and XV where you're under the mercy of the party's AI.Even if a story is good if the gameplay is frustrating it's hard for me to replay the game and rather watch scenes on youtube

 

Crisis Core was on a small scale and it was built for action from the get go,you're on your own,no AI to worry about,you have access to all sorts of magic,items and weapons and the game was short as it can be completed with 12 hours if you know what you do

 

With XIII and XV however they struggled as they want to obtain some form of party management like the old games without you controlling your party........it's like playing an MMO with a party of AI that won't listen instead of a human player and it's frustrating.That's what XIII and XV feels like especially XIII.MMOs with a party of AIs that you can't coordinate a plan with

 

It's fine if you don't like Turn based that's fine.But don't talk in an objective manner like saying "No one likes it anymore" when there are a huge amount of people who wants it

 

It still proves to be as financially profitable as Action RPGs if we wanna talk sales

 

I'm just saying my opinion which won't necessarily bode well with everyone but I just wanted to say my two cents on the matter

Edited March 2, 20178 yr by Dio Brando

While I really liked Final Fantasy XV, it's such an odd duck that I wouldn't look at it and think I was seeing the future of the Final Fantasy series. It was meant to be a spin-off, as an action game, and under a different director. If it was released as Final Fantasy Versus XIII, I doubt the XV that would've come afterwards would've been an Action RPG.

It's a tricky situation that I don't have an answer for. Square needs to be able to change with the times, but they also can't forget what made them popular to begin with. I really like turn based games (my first FF game was X), but if all mainline FF were turn based from hereon, it would get pretty stale.

I always wanted a Action RPG Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy is mostly for me about storyline so I rather have it this way and turn based is way to slow for me I want to have 100% control in a fight

If FFXV wasn't an ARPG, not many people would be interested in it. See, they tried to wider their audience with this game, and staying true to essence of FF while making something appealing for others was a main.I don't think the essence of FF is turned-based, neither is ATB, which is an evolution of turn-based. They had to also sell over 6 million titles to have profit, and casualizing the game a bit was a big step to do that.

Btw, the only turn-based game appealing to casuals is Pokemon, and that's because its a VERY simple rock-paper-scissors game, although if you delve into it its pretty complex. Apart from that I don't see that many turn-based games with a casual audience target. Even Persona 5 doesn't have a casual audience target, and the promotional material isn't nearly as big as FFXV's. For all of the reasons above, I think Square did a perfect job with the game's ARPG style.

I always wanted a Action RPG Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy is mostly for me about storyline so I rather have it this way and turn based is way to slow for me I want to have 100% control in a fight

Turn based let you control anyone while in Action RPG you have three AIs toying with your fate

Well, as a person who's played both original turn based and action RPG versions of Final Fantasy, I can definitely see where you're coming from here! I played through Final Fantasy XV, and even though it was an amazing game, (Though it had its share of problems.) my favorite Final Fantasy, to this day, is Final Fantasy IV, which is a turn based entry in the series!

 

I agree with what you say! Having complete control over my party is a satisfying feeling, and knowing that each member in my party has a role to play, and that I can make them enact their roles with great efficiency is what gives one empowerment and control over strategy in RPG's, ya know? I've had a great time with all the Final Fantasies I've played up till now, but I will agree that I prefer the turn based ones more! Final Fantasy IX is my second favorite entry, and it's also turn based! The thing about people complaining that turn based combat is a no go is kind of ridiculous! Like with the examples you provided, turn based RPG's aren't dead, they're very much alive and selling well! But well, Square always wants to innovate, and I'm guessing that's why they always make big changes with each mainline Final Fantasy, ya know?

 

I do hope that soon, we get a numbered Final Fantasy title that goes back to the roots of the turn based ones, ya know? I'm sure it should happen eventually!

honestly i don't see why a series like FF couldn't switch up from turn based to action oriented so long as either form isn't half assed. 

 

FFXV definitely seemed like it was taking a few baby steps to the action RPG genre, but it wasn't quite there. the combat, for one thing, is not fun. not bad, but not fun. i don't get a real sense of "action" from my action rpg. it feels like there's no weight to it. holding down circle just makes me feel less involved. and sure i could just press circle because that also works, and in fact that's what i was doing when i first started the game. it just got to a point that i couldn't feel the hits landing or having an impact and i just decided to settle for the automatic fighting style by holding down a single button until everything was dead. the most fun thing to do in combat is to warp strike and that's about it, and it's probably because it feels satisfying, unlike any other attack in the game. even the arminger(?) feels like swatting at flies because it's got no kick to it. look at games like God of War, Devil May Cry, or even Kingdom Hearts. something about those games make the combat satisfying. FFXV just feels floaty. You don't get a lot of feedback when you land a hit. You see the hit land (if the camera is having a good day) but you don't really feel it when it happens. 

 

as for party members, yea now that you mention it i don't think they've done anything to help me at all really. the team commands are about the most useful thing but the player is the one giving those instructions. the party members never feel like they're there, except when they repeat the same lines of dialogue in combat. and i'm pretty sure i've used more items on my team mates than i have on myself. i don't think Donald and Goofy were that bad. 

 

honestly i think id chalk up a big issue with the combat towards the environments. the camera is pretty bad and it can be pulled out so far you might as well just hold circle just to make sure you're at least still attacking. and christ help you if you want to fight something in an area with shrubs. so many times i'll go on a hunt for something and it'll be chilling in an area with some shrubbery and everytime the camera panics and gets stuck in the bushes and all i can see are numbers and sparks from attacks that i can't see land. it's awful. 

 

really, i think a mainline FF game could work as an ARPG but i think SE just need to fine tune it more and go all in on it, rather than try and retain gameplay elements from both genres. right now FFXV feels like ARPG-Lite. if they announced that the next mainline FF game was an ARPG i'd be fine with it, but i would just hope they actually turn it into a full on ARPG and not some strange half turn based/half real time thing. 

I can't consider an Action RPG to be a main series FF game. A lot of people seem to think that story is the one thing that defines a series, but there's much more to it than that. Every aspect of a game defines it; gameplay is a major part of a game's identity. Square threw away FF's identity as soon as they shifted to ARPGs (I'd argue even before that but let's not go there right now).

 

This isn't a matter of me not being fond of Action RPGs (Or at least the common "mash X/A/whatever button to attack" ones, which is all Square does), it's a matter of seeing a series I love go through an identity crisis and constantly try to "reinvent" itself. Changing genres isn't a form of natural progression. I think that what The Legend of Zelda is doing is a perfect example of how a series evolves over time. The shift to 3D in Ocarina of Time felt fitting, and Breath of the Wild is making a lot of changes while still keeping the important elements of Zelda intact. Heck, FF even has a good example. The ATB was an incredible way to advance the original turn-based system, and ATB is quite possibly my favorite type of combat system in any game ever. It's strategy-based, but has a sense of immediacy to it as well.

 

The whole change to ARPG is why I'm not interested in FFXV and why I won't be playing the FFVII "Remake." I started FF by playing the older entries, and they gave me a very specific idea of what Final Fantasy is to me. It's something I love, but that idea's been completely tossed out the window in favor of people who think that turn-based is "outdated" even though it's a perfectly fine gameplay style. They've made a lot of changes I don't like, but the shift to ARPG is the thing that really just drove it home that FF isn't what it used to be. On the bright side, Dragon Quest is still going strong with turn-based gameplay. That series hasn't disregarded the fans that made it so big in the first place.

 

 

Also, for everyone who reads this: please note that it's fine if you disagree with me and I respect your opinion. The only reason I'm so upset over the topic is that FF means a lot to me and the change is really disappointing to me. It's a personal thing, I'm not going to force others to agree.

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by Shulk

Well, as a person who's played both original turn based and action RPG versions of Final Fantasy, I can definitely see where you're coming from here! I played through Final Fantasy XV, and even though it was an amazing game, (Though it had its share of problems.) my favorite Final Fantasy, to this day, is Final Fantasy IV, which is a turn based entry in the series!

 

I agree with what you say! Having complete control over my party is a satisfying feeling, and knowing that each member in my party has a role to play, and that I can make them enact their roles with great efficiency is what gives one empowerment and control over strategy in RPG's, ya know? I've had a great time with all the Final Fantasies I've played up till now, but I will agree that I prefer the turn based ones more! Final Fantasy IX is my second favorite entry, and it's also turn based! The thing about people complaining that turn based combat is a no go is kind of ridiculous! Like with the examples you provided, turn based RPG's aren't dead, they're very much alive and selling well! But well, Square always wants to innovate, and I'm guessing that's why they always make big changes with each mainline Final Fantasy, ya know?

 

I do hope that soon, we get a numbered Final Fantasy title that goes back to the roots of the turn based ones, ya know? I'm sure it should happen eventually!

What I don't get with Square is that with Kingdom Hearts 2 they got the Action RPG formula right to a tea

 

Yet they have a myriads of problems trying to apply that to Final Fantasy because the series was never built around depending on one character to win battles

 

You need your party in both XIII and XV no matter how much the game tells you that you're fine controlling one guy.

 

I'm not saying that they shouldn't try an action RPG FF again,I just hope games like the VII remake would have an AI that I can depend on rather than being a burden.

 

Personally I think FF XVI should go back to the ATB system for one more time before doing action again with FF XVII

honestly i don't see why a series like FF couldn't switch up from turn based to action oriented so long as either form isn't half assed. 

 

FFXV definitely seemed like it was taking a few baby steps to the action RPG genre, but it wasn't quite there. the combat, for one thing, is not fun. not bad, but not fun. i don't get a real sense of "action" from my action rpg. it feels like there's no weight to it. holding down circle just makes me feel less involved. and sure i could just press circle because that also works, and in fact that's what i was doing when i first started the game. it just got to a point that i couldn't feel the hits landing or having an impact and i just decided to settle for the automatic fighting style by holding down a single button until everything was dead. the most fun thing to do in combat is to warp strike and that's about it, and it's probably because it feels satisfying, unlike any other attack in the game. even the arminger(?) feels like swatting at flies because it's got no kick to it. look at games like God of War, Devil May Cry, or even Kingdom Hearts. something about those games make the combat satisfying. FFXV just feels floaty. You don't get a lot of feedback when you land a hit. You see the hit land (if the camera is having a good day) but you don't really feel it when it happens. 

 

as for party members, yea now that you mention it i don't think they've done anything to help me at all really. the team commands are about the most useful thing but the player is the one giving those instructions. the party members never feel like they're there, except when they repeat the same lines of dialogue in combat. and i'm pretty sure i've used more items on my team mates than i have on myself. i don't think Donald and Goofy were that bad. 

 

honestly i think id chalk up a big issue with the combat towards the environments. the camera is pretty bad and it can be pulled out so far you might as well just hold circle just to make sure you're at least still attacking. and christ help you if you want to fight something in an area with shrubs. so many times i'll go on a hunt for something and it'll be chilling in an area with some shrubbery and everytime the camera panics and gets stuck in the bushes and all i can see are numbers and sparks from attacks that i can't see land. it's awful. 

 

really, i think a mainline FF game could work as an ARPG but i think SE just need to fine tune it more and go all in on it, rather than try and retain gameplay elements from both genres. right now FFXV feels like ARPG-Lite. if they announced that the next mainline FF game was an ARPG i'd be fine with it, but i would just hope they actually turn it into a full on ARPG and not some strange half turn based/half real time thing. 

And that's the problem,they're not going all out with it the same way franchises like Devil May Cry and KH does

 

I found Goofy pretty helpful to be honest compared to Donald but still at least KH gave enough options to Sora so he'd be able to handle himself pretty well in combat no matter how many times Donald and Goofy dies.Compared to XV where you need to do those team up attacks and tech commands that you issue them yourself but your party keeps getting hit like dumbasses and dies more than you do heck just like you I healed them more than I healed myself

 

If Final Fantasy XVI turned out to be an ARPG they gotta learn from what was wrong with XV,see what the competition did right and apply that to XVI

I can't consider an Action RPG to be a main series FF game. A lot of people seem to think that story is the one thing that defines a series, but there's much more to it than that. Every aspect of a game defines it; gameplay is a major part of a game's identity. Square threw away FF's identity as soon as they shifted to ARPGs (I'd argue even before that but let's not go there right now).

 

This isn't a matter of me not being fond of Action RPGs (Or at least the common "mash X/A/whatever button to attack" ones, which is all Square does), it's a matter of seeing a series I love go through an identity crisis and constantly try to "reinvent" itself. Changing genres isn't a form of natural progression. I think that what The Legend of Zelda is doing is a perfect example of how a series evolves over time. The shift to 3D in Ocarina of Time felt fitting, and Breath of the Wild is making a lot of changes while still keeping the important elements of Zelda intact. Heck, FF even has a good example. The ATB was an incredible way to advance the original turn-based system, and ATB is quite possibly my favorite type of combat system in any game ever. It's strategy-based, but has a sense of immediacy to it as well.

 

The whole change to ARPG is why I'm not interested in FFXV and why I won't be playing the FFVII "Remake." I started FF by playing the older entries, and they gave me a very specific idea of what Final Fantasy is to me. It's something I love, but that idea's been completely tossed out the window in favor of people who think that turn-based is "outdated" even though it's a perfectly fine gameplay style. They've made a lot of changes I don't like, but the shift to ARPG is the thing that really just drove it home that FF isn't what it used to be. On the bright side, Dragon Quest is still going strong with turn-based gameplay. That series hasn't disregarded the fans that made it so big in the first place.

 

 

Also, for everyone who reads this: please note that it's fine if you disagree with me and I respect your opinion. The only reason I'm so upset over the topic is that FF means a lot to me and the change is really disappointing to me. It's a personal thing, I'm not going to force others to agree.

Heck Gameplay and Story are two things that should go well together in tandum and complement each other rather than be a hinderence to each other

 

If FF was just the story I might as well watch a movie or an anime and get the same result but the reason it worked so well for the first 10 games,SMT,Persona and the Legends of Heroes games is because when you control a party member,whether on their own or with the party,you kinda get to know them on a more personal level and how their approach to combat can be one of the defining aspects of their characters

 

in FF9,even when the party is seperated I got to control all of them and see what they're doing without the need for it to be DLC like XV

 

Same with 6 and how despite having over 14 party members they managed to make the 12 canonical ones so memorable and endearing and you got to control every single one of them

 

It's the balance mix of story and gameplay that makes an RPG game a great experience,not just the story

 

If the gameplay was bad I have no reason to waste 60$ on the game when I can just go look it up on youtube and get the same emotional investment

 

Heck some creative developers can use gameplay as a visual story telling medium where through your gameplay and interactions with the environment and people you uncover it as you go along and be a big part of it rather than just have it be part of a cutscene only

 

Sure everyone has their own interpretation of what a Final Fantasy game is depending on where they started.Obviously when most KH fans were introduced to FF they went to it with the same mindset they had for KH expecting the same action experience and being mislead by what they watch of games like Dissidia and XV.And when they say the most important thing is the story it basically shows that they don't entirely get how the series got as big as it is

 

FF1,the game that saved Square Soft from bankruptcy,has one of the most basic if not THE most basic fantasy plot for an RPG at the time and the plot was nothing remarkable.But the gameplay on the other hand expanded upon what was introduced in stuff like DnD and Ultima.Multiple job systems giving you a wide variety of ways to replay the game.a battle system that at the time exercised strategy,thinking and careful observation of your enemies' strengths and weaknesses that would define the series for years to come reaching the peak of it's improvement with the ATB system starting from FF4 where they finally found the right formula to integrate the overarching story to the gameplay 

 

There is a reason you see speedrunners break world records in speedruns from FF4 all the way up to 9 with how much experimentation those games allow you to do heck for FF9 there is a weapon you can only get if you reach the final dungeon of Memoria within 12 hours.It's this experimentation and freedom given to the player that made Pokemon the juggernaut it is now making it the best selling RPG franchise and second best selling franchise of all time.It is the reason that the Shin Megami Tensei franchise with it's mainline and Persona games managed to resurface again to the mainstream JRPG scene

 

It's fine for people to not like Turn base combat,but to say it's an outdated relic is complete bullshit when it's the reason the genre even exist.It's been a thing ever since the days of Tabletop Dungeons n Dragons which pioneered the RPG genre way before it made it's video game debut.It's still a profitable source and even Square kind of admitted that by creating the Tokyo RPG factory studio solely for making turn based RPGs that harkens back to the classic Square games of the 90s

 

Evolving is done by improving and adding to the formula that is already established,it's why Pokemon is still the giant it is now and it's the reason why Zelda still gets critical claim with each and every entry.Not by completely changing genres and be bullied by industry trends to the point a franchise barely resembles what it used to be

 

I want FINAL FANTASY now not DiscountWitcherSkyrimWannabeClone Fantasy

I can't consider an Action RPG to be a main series FF game. A lot of people seem to think that story is the one thing that defines a series, but there's much more to it than that. Every aspect of a game defines it; gameplay is a major part of a game's identity. Square threw away FF's identity as soon as they shifted to ARPGs (I'd argue even before that but let's not go there right now).

 

This isn't a matter of me not being fond of Action RPGs (Or at least the common "mash X/A/whatever button to attack" ones, which is all Square does), it's a matter of seeing a series I love go through an identity crisis and constantly try to "reinvent" itself. Changing genres isn't a form of natural progression. I think that what The Legend of Zelda is doing is a perfect example of how a series evolves over time. The shift to 3D in Ocarina of Time felt fitting, and Breath of the Wild is making a lot of changes while still keeping the important elements of Zelda intact. Heck, FF even has a good example. The ATB was an incredible way to advance the original turn-based system, and ATB is quite possibly my favorite type of combat system in any game ever. It's strategy-based, but has a sense of immediacy to it as well.

 

The whole change to ARPG is why I'm not interested in FFXV and why I won't be playing the FFVII "Remake." I started FF by playing the older entries, and they gave me a very specific idea of what Final Fantasy is to me. It's something I love, but that idea's been completely tossed out the window in favor of people who think that turn-based is "outdated" even though it's a perfectly fine gameplay style. They've made a lot of changes I don't like, but the shift to ARPG is the thing that really just drove it home that FF isn't what it used to be. On the bright side, Dragon Quest is still going strong with turn-based gameplay. That series hasn't disregarded the fans that made it so big in the first place.

 

 

Also, for everyone who reads this: please note that it's fine if you disagree with me and I respect your opinion. The only reason I'm so upset over the topic is that FF means a lot to me and the change is really disappointing to me. It's a personal thing, I'm not going to force others to agree.

Hasn't FF been reinventing itself every mainline game though in just about every other way? What about the shift from turns to ATB? I think that's what FF has been known for - changing up the formula every time.

Changing genres isn't technically evolution

 

Evolving is by improving on the formula you created not blindly mimicing the market trend without knowing how such trend worked

 

ARPGs and Turn based RPGs are not even in the same genres,they're two different beasts

 

For MMOs what they did is no different from what MMOs do at the time.It's the same as FFXII except you play with other friends and come up with plans.XI and XIV are like traditional FF experiences but with an MMO twists allowing you to form huge parties with other human players

 

Yes Story does define FF but so is gameplay,if they wanna go full ARPG they should do the system similar to Kingdom Hearts not the mess they concoct with games like XIII and XV where you're under the mercy of the party's AI.Even if a story is good if the gameplay is frustrating it's hard for me to replay the game and rather watch scenes on youtube

 

Crisis Core was on a small scale and it was built for action from the get go,you're on your own,no AI to worry about,you have access to all sorts of magic,items and weapons and the game was short as it can be completed with 12 hours if you know what you do

 

With XIII and XV however they struggled as they want to obtain some form of party management like the old games without you controlling your party........it's like playing an MMO with a party of AI that won't listen instead of a human player and it's frustrating.That's what XIII and XV feels like especially XIII.MMOs with a party of AIs that you can't coordinate a plan with

 

It's fine if you don't like Turn based that's fine.But don't talk in an objective manner like saying "No one likes it anymore" when there are a huge amount of people who wants it

 

It still proves to be as financially profitable as Action RPGs if we wanna talk sales

 

I'm just saying my opinion which won't necessarily bode well with everyone but I just wanted to say my two cents on the matter

Sometimes I love opinion-based discussion. But this is why I hate it.

 

Just because I don't put "I believe" or "I think" after every sentence doesn't mean I'm not saying my opinion or that I'm attacking yours. In fact quoted the people I talked to, not a people as a whole as to whether they liked turn based Vs. ARPG.

 

My problem isn't turn based Vs. ARPG. In fact I like this kind of discussion of differing opinions, especially for those who've stood behind it all their lives. My issue is the fact that people loved Vs. XIII when it was first announced, begged for more information every year, every E3, every TGS, but change a word and a number and suddenly people are going batshit for the entire future of FF. My issue is people saying "I love ARPGs, but nostalgia tells me to hate FF ARPGs." Doesn't make sense.

 

But by that notion, as my opinion doesn't matter (and VsXIII is somehow way older than Witcher 3 yet a clone of it), I'm going to give a reality check that people won't want to hear, but know in the back of their minds.

 

FACT: The next director will do whatever the hell he wants on the next game's combat system.

FACT: If that next director is either Tabata or Nomura, turn based fans are 90% shit out of luck that the main combat system will be turn based or any derivation of that. Tabata might find a way to appease fans, Nomura will not give two shits.

FACT: Let me reiterate; FF's next combat system is completely on the next director and SE. If they feel that it ain't worth it to go back to turn based, that's what they'll do.

FACT: Nothing was confirmed that ARPGs are the future of FF. Gotta fact check, but I believe someone other than Tabata even said "FFXV has its own combat system, and that doesn't mean anything for whatever other titles there are".

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by Clouded Sun

Hasn't FF been reinventing itself every mainline game though in just about every other way? What about the shift from turns to ATB? I think that's what FF has been known for - changing up the formula every time.

Sometimes I love opinion-based discussion. But this is why I hate it.

 

Just because I don't put "I believe" or "I think" after every sentence doesn't mean I'm not saying my opinion or that I'm attacking yours. In fact quoted the people I talked to, not a people as a whole as to whether they liked turn based Vs. ARPG.

 

My problem isn't turn based Vs. ARPG. In fact I like this kind of discussion of differing opinions, especially for those who've stood behind it all their lives. My issue is the fact that people loved Vs. XIII when it was first announced, begged for more information every year, every E3, every TGS, but change a word and a number and suddenly people are going batshit for the entire future of FF. My issue is people saying "I love ARPGs, but nostalgia tells me to hate FF ARPGs." Doesn't make sense.

 

But by that notion, as my opinion doesn't matter (and VsXIII is somehow way older than Witcher 3 yet a clone of it), I'm going to give a reality check that people won't want to hear, but know in the back of their minds.

 

FACT: The next director will do whatever the hell he wants on the next game's combat system.

FACT: If that next director is either Tabata or Nomura, turn based fans are 90% shit out of luck that the main combat system will be turn based or any derivation of that. Tabata might find a way to appease fans, Nomura will not give two shits.

FACT: Let me reiterate; FF's next combat system is completely on the next director and SE. If they feel that it ain't worth it to go back to turn based, that's what they'll do.

FACT: Nothing was confirmed that ARPGs are the future of FF. Gotta fact check, but I believe someone other than Tabata even said "FFXV has its own combat system, and that doesn't mean anything for whatever other titles there are".

I'm not blinded by Nostalgia and there are legit big problems with XV

 

I like XV but the game is riddled with issues that goes beyond what if it's Action or not,issues with writing,issues with AI,issues with pacing....etc

 

Versus XIII doesn't exist,it's a canceled game that later on was reworked into a mainline entry.XV is Versus XIII and nothing will change that

 

Action or not at least they should try to take what worked for Kingdom Hearts and apply it to FF without making a hybrid mess that is neither Action nor ATB but rather an awkward middle

 

And no the changed from turn to ATB isn't as drastic as XIII and XV.the difference with ATB is just the fact that you  have a bar that determines whether your turn comes after the enemy or not but besides that it was classic turn based combat

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by Dio Brando

I just hope that FFXVI won't be directed by Tabata, and hopefully Ito instead.

I don't want the next FF to be unfinished, which somehow went all according to plan.

I just hope that FFXVI won't be directed by Tabata, and hopefully Ito instead.

I don't want the next FF to be unfinished, which somehow went all according to plan.

Eh, Nomura did leave a bit of a storm behind too. and SE was unnecessarily harsh in time scheduling. They had from late 2013 or early 2014 (Nomura at the time said they were still porting assets) to mid 2016 to finish.

Eh, Nomura did leave a bit of a storm behind too. and SE was unnecessarily harsh in time scheduling. They had from late 2013 or early 2014 (Nomura at the time said they were still porting assets) to mid 2016 to finish.

Oh, I am well aware about that mess.

It is just the fact that they exploit how much the game is unfinished by making paid DLCs that fix it which annoys me, in addition to Tabata's desperate damage control.

Oh, I am well aware about that mess.

It is just the fact that they exploit how much the game is unfinished by making paid DLCs that fix it which annoys me, in addition to Tabata's desperate damage control.

Gladio and Prompto's chapters should've never been a DLC in the first place,it's literally making us pay for what should've been in the game from the get go.

 

It's like if in Final Fantasy IX I had to pay everytime the party gets separated just so I'd know what's happening when I'm not playing as Zidane....it's bullshit

I wholeheartedly agree that Final Fantasy wasn't really meant to be an ARPG.

 

While I understand that Final Fantasy isn't all about its combat system, I believe that it plays a huge part of it.  Just think about how much time we dedicate to battles in each game! The combat style really makes all the difference to me in a game, and while I like ARPGs in some instances I don't think it fits in a Final Fantasy title, for a lot of the reasons that you've described.  Final Fantasy just started out as a turn-based that evolved into ATB, which was a very strong attribute of the series for a long time.  Now that they're trying to "keep up with the times" and modernize it I feel that they're losing part of the charm that made Final Fantasy precisely what it is.  Sure, they're going to earn some fans because ARPGs are becoming increasingly popular and a lot of people find turn-based combat to be tedious and time consuming, but I also feel that they're not being true to themselves as the amazing series they had in the beginning.  Sometimes the simplicity is just what makes a game great, not the innovation of trying to be something it isn't.  I suppose that's what really bothers me about Final Fantasy taking an ARPG approach: it doesn't belong in the genre but they're trying to do it anyway because it's popular.

 

I'm an avid fan and I've played a variety of the titles, but my favorites will always be VI, IV, and IX.  It doesn't have everything to do with the combat system, but it plays a huge role in it.  There's something very rewarding about utilizing all of your party members and formulating the best strategy that works for YOU, not having an AI act stupid in the background while you only can control your main unit.  I just don't find that style to be very fun at all.  It'd be one thing if you had generic party members and only the main character mattered, but that's so not the case when it comes to Final Fantasy.  It's not a bad thing, necessarily, but it's taking core elements that I really liked about the franchise and removing them for the sake of keeping up with the times, which I don't like.  I can take a look at other series that have predominately remained the same over the years, so I don't think it was really necessary for Final Fantasy to branch out this far just to keep fans interested.  While they have indeed earned fans they have also lost them, so I'm not too sure which is worse.  I think they would've done just fine if they improved their graphics and continued writing new stories while maintaining the older gameplay elements that made Final Fantasy what it is.

Next FF-ATB/ARPG hybrid, minimap, linear but with towns and an overmap (type 0 HD style), any setting. No open world nonsense please . 

Turn based let you control anyone while in Action RPG you have three AIs toying with your fate

I don't want to wait in a fight to get hit I want to move seriously how can my attacks miss when they stand right infront of me? do you know how many times I died because of this?

I never had problems with party members in action games... Except donald -_-

I want to see Final Fantasy going in this direction for a while and I think this appeals more to people

 

Edit: Maybe I have to be more clear I said I think

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by AwesomeKHfan

I don't want to wait in a fight to get hit I want to move seriously how can my attacks miss when they stand right infront of me? do you know how many times I died because of this?

I never had problems with party members in action games... Except donald -_-

I want to see Final Fantasy going in this direction for a while and I think this appeals more to people

"This appeals more to people"

 

I hate how objective that is worded as if you know what everyone wants and assume everyone wants the same thing as you

 

As for the whole "Missing" thing.......that's called evasion stats and they exist even in Action RPGs

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by Dio Brando

"This appeals more to people"

 

I hate how objective that is worded as if you know what everyone wants and assume everyone wants the same thing as you

 

As for the whole "Missing" thing.......that's called evasion stats and they exist even in Action RPGs

Well I never noticed it

Well I never noticed it

It's the same as an enemy dodging you an any game ever,except there are numbers to it

 

And again,I hate the "I'm everyone" mentality where rather than try to convey your opinion you just paint it as something everyone said

It's the same as an enemy dodging you an any game ever,except there are numbers to it

 

And again,I hate the "I'm everyone" mentality where rather than try to convey your opinion you just paint it as something everyone said

Look that makes sense that a enemy does a dodge animation but in most turned based games I played they just stand there and they get hit and it says missed I mean seriously how can I freaking miss I stabbed the dude and he didn't move that is my complained it makes more sense to me if they move around the battlefield

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by AwesomeKHfan