"They only pretend to have hearts. You must not be deceived"

[hatok 6,413]

This has been a confusing element of KH for me since the day I joined this site

 

Okay so when Sora and company meet Yen Sid in KH2, Yen Sid warns them that Nobodies don't have hearts, and that they must not be deceived... but to what end?

Later on, Demyx tells them that Nobodies do have hearts. "Don't be mad"

and then they angrily say they won't be fooled

Okay

but why?

What does the deception GAIN them? Why is it so important Sora not be deceived? How does it benefit a Nobody to trick Sora into thinking they have a heart?

Is there even a reason? Why draw attention to this and follow up with it later on?

 

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I think it's used as a defensive mechanism to pretend they are "still human" so Sora will feel bad and possibly hesitate to defeat and kill them.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[Dave 5,715]

I always thought it tied into the semi-tragic element of the Nobodies in that they've lost something that they still think they have, and they still try to act upon the emotions that they think they should be feeling. And given that they mean to do harm to Sora regardless, it means he shouldn't give in to his base instinct for pity.

[hatok 6,413]

I think it's used as a defensive mechanism to pretend they are "still human" so Sora will feel bad and possibly hesitate to defeat and kill them.

I always thought it tied into the semi-tragic element of the Nobodies in that they've lost something that they still think they have, and they still try to act upon the emotions that they think they should be feeling. And given that they mean to do harm to Sora regardless, it means he shouldn't give in to his base instinct for pity.

I've seen this argument before but... Sora doesn't hesitate to fight beings like Maleficent who DO have hearts. If that was the intent, it desn't really match with Sora's previous actions. He's never shown to have reservations about attacking someone. Heck, if you want to look at a VERY relevant example, he has no issue fighting and killing members of the Organization in CoM

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

I've seen this argument before but... Sora doesn't hesitate to fight beings like Maleficent who DO have hearts. If that was the intent, it desn't really match with Sora's previous actions. He's never shown to have reservations about attacking someone. Heck, if you want to look at a VERY relevant example, he has no issue fighting and killing members of the Organization in CoM

except none of those pretended to be this nice normal good person. They were all acting evil and without regard to casualties.So he had no choice but to defeat them.The ones who do pretend use this as a defensive mechanism.

[Dave 5,715]

I've seen this argument before but... Sora doesn't hesitate to fight beings like Maleficent who DO have hearts. If that was the intent, it desn't really match with Sora's previous actions. He's never shown to have reservations about attacking someone. Heck, if you want to look at a VERY relevant example, he has no issue fighting and killing members of the Organization in CoM

 

I think it's more for in the case of someone trying to dupe Sora such as Xemnas tries to do near the end. Obviously, if someone is going to come at Sora with blatant aggressive intent, he's going to defend himself. But when someone like Xemnas tries to feign feelings to try and throw the party off, it's good to have a heads up that they're probably just lying.

[hatok 6,413]

except none of those pretended to be this nice normal good person. They were all acting evil and without regard to casualties.So he had no choice but to defeat them.The ones who do pretend use this as a defensive mechanism.

I think it's more for in the case of someone trying to dupe Sora such as Xemnas tries to do near the end. Obviously, if someone is going to come at Sora with blatant aggressive intent, he's going to defend himself. But when someone like Xemnas tries to feign feelings to try and throw the party off, it's good to have a heads up that they're probably just lying.

Again, valid in theory, except the only Nobody who does it is Demyx and that's after multiple run ins with Sora and explicitly stated aggressive intent. It wasn't even really Demyx acting LIKE he had a heard, he just told Sora "we do too!" and then Sora and Donald reacted like they'd just avoided some sort of master ploy.

 

On the topic of good intent, I think acting nice would be the reason Sora doesn't attack, and them having or not having a heart being kinda irrelevant

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Again, valid in theory, except the only Nobody who does it is Demyx and that's after multiple run ins with Sora and explicitly stated aggressive intent. It wasn't even really Demyx acting LIKE he had a heard, he just told Sora "we do too!" and then Sora and Donald reacted like they'd just avoided some sort of master ploy.

 

On the topic of good intent, I think acting nice would be the reason Sora doesn't attack, and them having or not having a heart being kinda irrelevant

 

It was basically a warning from Yen Sid that it COULD happen so watch out . Not necessarily that every single nobody ever would always do this. And Demyx tried not to be aggressive until he had no choice. Also Dave gave a great example citing Xemnas as an example.

[hatok 6,413]

It was basically a warning from Yen Sid that it COULD happen so watch out . Not necessarily that every single nobody ever would always do this. And Demyx tried not to be aggressive until he had no choice. Also Dave gave a great example citing Xemnas as an example.

Xemnas doesn't pretend to have a heart though, he's the one insisting that they don't the entire time. As of Hollow Bastion Sora had already foguht Demyx once, so he knows he has malicious intent, never mind Demyx reading out his orders to "eliminate the traitor" right in front of him.

If the entire point of that cutscene was just to say it COULD happen, then frankly it was a waste of time and should have been cut to make the already far too long Yen Sid scene a little shorter.

But it's not just for that, the 'pay off' is the Demyx scene, except in the context of the Demyx scene nothing is gained whether Sora believes him or not

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Xemnas doesn't pretend to have a heart though, he's the one insisting that they don't the entire time. As of Hollow Bastion Sora had already foguht Demyx once, so he knows he has malicious intent, never mind Demyx reading out his orders to "eliminate the traitor" right in front of him.

If the entire point of that cutscene was just to say it COULD happen, then frankly it was a waste of time and should have been cut to make the already far too long Yen Sid scene a little shorter.

But it's not just for that, the 'pay off' is the Demyx scene, except in the context of the Demyx scene nothing is gained whether Sora believes him or not

 

Xemnas DOES act like it in the end and Sora blatantly calls him out on it. Secondly Demyx having to use cue cards just proves that he only did what he had to do but he had no choice. Sora didn't even take him seriously and mocked him as being no real threat. As for nothing gained - if they thought it wouldn't work both Xemnas and Demyx wouldn't have tried the very thing Yen Sid warned them about. It never hurts to try

[hatok 6,413]

Xemnas DOES act like it in the end and Sora blatantly calls him out on it. Secondly Demyx having to use cue cards just proves that he only did what he had to do but he had no choice. Sora didn't even take him seriously and mocked him as being no real threat. As for nothing gained - if they thought it wouldn't work both Xemnas and Demyx wouldn't have tried the very thing Yen Sid warned them about. It never hurts to try

Can you link me which specific scene you're talking about with Xemnas? The only one I can think of I remember sounding sarcastic

And yeah, again, Sora didn't view him as a threat... what does telling him he has a heart accomplish? Mild confusion? At best?

[RoxSox 3,593]

I think they were in denial in large part, I think.

 

Or perhaps some of them were savvy to that one plot twist from DDD, you know the one, and genuinely meant it when they said that they do in fact have hearts.

Edited December 5, 2014 by RoxSox

[hatok 6,413]

I think they were in denial in large part, I think.

okay, but why does that warrant a warning from Yen Sid? Why was such a big deal made about Sora and company not being fooled when Demyx said they did have hearts?

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

Can you link me which specific scene you're talking about with Xemnas? The only one I can think of I remember sounding sarcastic

And yeah, again, Sora didn't view him as a threat... what does telling him he has a heart accomplish? Mild confusion? At best?

 

Confusion and possibly pity i presume.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[RoxSox 3,593]

okay, but why does that warrant a warning from Yen Sid? Why was such a big deal made about Sora and company not being fooled when Demyx said they did have hearts?

 

Because I think at the heart of the situation (heh) Nobodies were meant to be a sympathetic thing. They're people who for a long time we were led to believe did not have hearts, and that everything they did was an effort to get one. We're given the impression all throughout the series how important a heart is, then here are a group of people who are left out of the fun. It's supposed to be something the player pities, and by extension Sora, thus Yen Sid pushing the point forward that Sora needs to focus on what must be done, and not let pity rule over his actions in the coming conflicts. It might be that Sora hasn't shown hesitation before, but that in this case he might be tempted to, and that won't do.

[hatok 6,413]

 

Confusion and possibly pity i presume.

that scene seems... weird. Xemnas is complaining about how his situation is unfair. That's not an emotion. He doesn't even mention feeling an emotion, just that they had no choice because they wanted hearts. Lost in translation maybe? Because I very much interpreted that as more of Sora telling Xemnas to shut up than Xemnas trying to trick Sora into thinking he had a heart

But again, is that really relevant to thinking a Nobody has a heart? If Xemnas had a heart (and he did) would Sora have been more willing it listen to how justified Xemnas was in going around and "messing up worlds"?

 

 

Because I think at the heart of the situation (heh) Nobodies were meant to be a sympathetic thing. They're people who for a long time we were led to believe did not have hearts, and that everything they did was an effort to get one. We're given the impression all throughout the series how important a heart is, then here are a group of people who are left out of the fun. It's supposed to be something the player pities, and by extension Sora, thus Yen Sid pushing the point forward that Sora needs to focus on what must be done, and not let pity rule over his actions in the coming conflicts. It might be that Sora hasn't shown hesitation before, but that in this case he might be tempted to, and that won't do.

But there's a rule about that, you don't introduce things just because someone MIGHT do something in a story, that's filler. if you're going to establish that thinking Nobodies have hearts is something bad, then you need to go somewhere with it.

[RoxSox 3,593]

But there's a rule about that, you don't introduce things just because someone MIGHT do something in a story, that's filler. if you're going to establish that thinking Nobodies have hearts is something bad, then you need to go somewhere with it.

 

It's a precautionary measure to make sure Sora does what he needs to do, and doesn't ally himself with the opponent out of pity for their struggle. And it's not much of a plot point all things considered, not really a big thing that needs to be followed up on. Even then, that Sora doesn't go AWOL and side with the Organization shows that Yen Sid's warning accomplished something. Or maybe Sora would have done what he did without the warning. It's schrodingers Sora.

[hatok 6,413]

It's a precautionary measure to make sure Sora does what he needs to do, and doesn't ally himself with the opponent out of pity for their struggle. And it's not much of a plot point all things considered, not really a big thing that needs to be followed up on. Even then, that Sora doesn't go AWOL and side with the Organization shows that Yen Sid's warning accomplished something. Or maybe Sora would have done what he did without the warning. It's schrodingers Sora.

It's not followed up on, so it doesn't need to be introduced. His warning isn't even relevant to that, he warns Sora that they may tell him they have hearts

not that they'll try to win him to their side. Really there's no reason Sora wouldn't have been able to be lured to the Organization's side whether or not he believed they had hearts. He just needs to agree with them, and he clearly doesn't.

[HarLea Quinn 26,501]

that scene seems... weird. Xemnas is complaining about how his situation is unfair. That's not an emotion. He doesn't even mention feeling an emotion, just that they had no choice because they wanted hearts. Lost in translation maybe? Because I very much interpreted that as more of Sora telling Xemnas to shut up than Xemnas trying to trick Sora into thinking he had a heart

But again, is that really relevant to thinking a Nobody has a heart? If Xemnas had a heart (and he did) would Sora have been more willing it listen to how justified Xemnas was in going around and "messing up worlds"?

 

But there's a rule about that, you don't introduce things just because someone MIGHT do something in a story, that's filler. if you're going to establish that thinking Nobodies have hearts is something bad, then you need to go somewhere with it

That scene was definitely him trying to trick Sora thus why Sora calls him out. There is nothing weird about that scene. He was trying to illicit pity which is an emotion ..It's relevant to the fact that he was trying to do the very thing Yen Sid warned about . Pretty cut and dry. Also since nobodies having hearts is a retcon he didn't think he had a heart at the time this was originally made. As for why Xemnas thought it would matter- it's more of why not try to see if it would work to get Sora to pity and understand them 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Flaming Lea

[Isamu Kuno 2,512]

This has been a confusing element of KH for me since the day I joined this site

 

Okay so when Sora and company meet Yen Sid in KH2, Yen Sid warns them that Nobodies don't have hearts, and that they must not be deceived... but to what end?

Later on, Demyx tells them that Nobodies do have hearts. "Don't be mad"

and then they angrily say they won't be fooled

Okay

but why?

What does the deception GAIN them? Why is it so important Sora not be deceived? How does it benefit a Nobody to trick Sora into thinking they have a heart?

Is there even a reason? Why draw attention to this and follow up with it later on?

If Sora thought they had hearts, he would have been more hesitant about eliminating them. Pretending to have hearts was a means of self-preservation. Of course, back then we thought Nobodies really didn't have hearts. I bet if Sora hadn't found out that destroying a persons Nobody and Heartless in 3D, he'd have been crushed be the guilt of eliminating peso many people. It's possible that he did feel bad about it, making him easier prey for the darkness.

[RoxSox 3,593]

It's not followed up on, so it doesn't need to be introduced. His warning isn't even relevant to that, he warns Sora that they may tell him they have hearts

not that they'll try to win him to their side. Really there's no reason Sora wouldn't have been able to be lured to the Organization's side whether or not he believed they had hearts. He just needs to agree with them, and he clearly doesn't.

 

Okay, so you don't see a good reason for him to have said that because you don't think it's followed up on. But tell me, is there really a good reason not to? It doesn't come up much, but in Yen Sid's mind that's a perfectly valid warning and it was worth saying, even if nothing came of it. It's two lines of dialogue that take up about 0.00001% of the story, why is it such a big deal?

[Dracozombie 4,554]

I didn't think Yen Sid's line was a huge warning, so much as it was a caution against thinking supposedly-heartless beings actually had hearts. At the time and to Yen Sid's knowledge, Nobodies were thought to be completely heartless, nothing more than empty shells. The Organization going around being all emotional and would call that into question. Yen Sid was seemed like he was just warning Sora to remember what's what. No, it didn't really come into fruition, but it doesn't matter -- it's like reminding someone that airplanes can fly thanks to good old machinery and physics and not magic (I mean, come on, look at that giant hunk of metal taking off and tell me a wizard isn't responsible). What does someone have to gain from tricking someone into thinking it's magic? I dunno, but it's a matter of facts, or what was believed to be the fact.

 

As for Demyx's line, it looked like it was more of the same warning: Demyx was acting like he had a heart, and Donald reminded Sora it wasn't the case. I never thought there was any active deception in that scene, no trickery, no lulling anyone into a false sense of security, no play on sympathy -- just a reminder of the facts. I don't think Sora would actually care whether or not Demyx had a heart. As, y'know, the entire franchise shows, if someone's a baddie then Sora will stop them, heart or no. It's the Organization who cares about hearts because they're trying to get one. Sora just needs to take down a bad guy.

[hatok 6,413]

That scene was definitely him trying to trick Sora thus why Sora calls him out. There is nothing weird about that scene.He was trying to illicit pity which is an emotion ..It's relevant to the fact that he was trying to do the very thing Yen Sid warned about . Pretty cut and dry. Also since nobodies having hearts is a retcon he didn't think he had a heart at the time this was originally made. As rfor why Xemnas thought it would matter- it's more of why not try to see if it would work to get Sora to pity and understand them 

First off, retcon or otherwise, it's canon, and needs to be addressed as such

Xemnas is trying to make them feel pity... okay, but it's not Sora and Riku who lack hearts, they'd be able to feel pity on way or another. Xemnas himself doesn't have to feel pity to try to get Sora to feel it (and Sora clearly does feel pity for the Nobodies come DDD)

But it's definitely not that cut and dry

Again, the big focus is not on "they will try to make you sympathize with them" it's focused on "they don't have hearts". Even if Xemnas had a heart, he could still try to win Sora over to his side. Having a heart or not isn't really relevant to that. If the intent was to remind Sora that HE can't make the Nobodies pity him, that'd make sense, but it's THEM trying to trick him.

 

If Sora thought they had hearts, he would have been more hesitant about eliminating them. Pretending to have hearts was a means of self-preservation. Of course, back then we thought Nobodies really didn't have hearts. I bet if Sora hadn't found out that destroying a persons Nobody and Heartless in 3D, he'd have been crushed be the guilt of eliminating peso many people. It's possible that he did feel bad about it, making him easier prey for the darkness.

There has never been any indication that Sora feels any reservations about killing or attacking a person without a heart. He does so many times in KH1, and he thinks the Nobodies in CoM have hearts. I doubt Sora would feel much guilt because in his mind the Organization are bad guys, jsut like Maleficent and whoever else he's killed.

 

Okay, so you don't see a good reason for him to have said that because you don't think it's followed up on. But tell me, is there really a good reason not to? It doesn't come up much, but in Yen Sid's mind that's a perfectly valid warning and it was worth saying, even if nothing came of it. It's two lines of dialogue that take up about 0.00001% of the story, why is it such a big deal?

Something DOES come of it, the scene with Demyx, and arguably Flaming Lea's Xemnas scene. It comes up in a very confusing, irrelevant way.

Yen Sid doesn't hav a mind, he has a writer. Just because the writer decides something makes sense doesn't mean it does, Why is it a big deal? It's not, but do you really want to go down the rabbit hole of what constitutes a "big deal"?

[RoxSox 3,593]

t's not, but do you really want to go down the rabbit hole of what constitutes a "big deal"?

but isn't that what you're doing right now?

[hatok 6,413]

I didn't think Yen Sid's line was a huge warning, so much as it was a caution against thinking supposedly-heartless beings actually had hearts. At the time and to Yen Sid's knowledge, Nobodies were thought to be completely heartless, nothing more than empty shells. The Organization going around being all emotional and would call that into question. Yen Sid was seemed like he was just warning Sora to remember what's what. No, it didn't really come into fruition, but it doesn't matter -- it's like reminding someone that airplanes can fly thanks to good old machinery and physics and not magic (I mean, come on, look at that giant hunk of metal taking off and tell me a wizard isn't responsible). What does someone have to gain from tricking someone into thinking it's magic? I dunno, but it's a matter of facts, or what was believed to be the fact.

 

As for Demyx's line, it looked like it was more of the same warning: Demyx was acting like he had a heart, and Donald reminded Sora it wasn't the case. I never thought there was any active deception in that scene, no trickery, no lulling anyone into a false sense of security, no play on sympathy -- just a reminder of the facts. I don't think Sora would actually care whether or not Demyx had a heart. As, y'know, the entire franchise shows, if someone's a baddie then Sora will stop them, heart or no. It's the Organization who cares about hearts because they're trying to get one. Sora just needs to take down a bad guy.

With that interpretation... why even have it at all?

Well actually, I might have a reason. KH2 LOVED repeating the same plot details over and over. So that could be a valid angle to view this by

but it still confuses me why this plot point was included at all if they weren't going to do anything with it

but isn't that what you're doing right now?

no