I know KH was never really big into giving female characters a lot of agency in their plot lines but I was ready to see Kairi live up to her potential as a character in KH3

 

we all know what a disaster KH3 was in terms of how they handled female characters—Aqua needed help from her male counterparts in the realm of darkness and in her fight against Vanitas, even though she was set up as a strong character. 
 

kairi was killed off and now retconned in the DLC which I was happy to see but then just when I thought the dev team had put some thought into her arc she is literally PUT INTO A COMA FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR.

 

This fact completely made me lose faith in the series. Sadly, besides the overly bitter and convoluted plot spinning in circles with whichever character Nomura is obsessed with this cycle, no female character was given any bit of agency or redeeming qualities. It really ruined the series for me

 

Did anyone else pick up on this deplorable development since the original games?

why do you think the focus has shifted so much from integrity in main characters to overly complicated and male populist driven plot lines? 

3 hours ago, TheThirteenth said:

we all know what a disaster KH3 was in terms of how they handled female characters—Aqua needed help from her male counterparts in the realm of darkness and in her fight against Vanitas, even though she was set up as a strong character. 

Since when getting help means that a character isn't strong? This basically goes against everything KH is about

4 hours ago, TheThirteenth said:

kairi was killed off and now retconned in the DLC which I was happy to see but then just when I thought the dev team had put some thought into her arc she is literally PUT INTO A COMA FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR.

Sora was also put into a coma for an entire year, but that didn't make him any worse of a character.

In the Limitcut Episode, it is explained that everyone is trying different things to find Sora.  Kairi willingly let herself be put into a coma so that Ansem the Wise, Ienzo, and Even could search her heart because she believed that her heart could hold a clue about Sora.  So, she is doing her part.  She just isn't actively doing something like most of the others are.

Now, if she remains in a coma, then that could become an issue.  However, the ending cutscene of the Limitcut Episode hinted at Kairi's involvement in getting Sora back.  Fairy Godmother showed up and told Riku that his dreams may hold the key that leads them to Sora.  Riku said, "In my dreams...?"  And Fairy Godmother responded, "And...the other two."  And after she says this, we are shown Kairi.

Will the female characters be given more time to shine?  Only time will tell.  However, I don't think it's fair to give up just yet since Nomura seems to be hinting at Kairi playing an important role in saving Sora.

Kairi is the only badly written female. Olette is debatable, but she hasn't had much screen time and still has potential. Namine is caring, sweet and wants to do the right thing even if she must suffer for it. Aqua is motherly and would do anything for her friends, asking for help is no weakness. Xion has struggled and persevered and this is reflected through her personality. Must I go on? Every female has something unique, interesting and strong about them EXCEPT Kairi who is used mainly as a plot device. Don't dis Aqua, Namine, Xion, Ava and every other girl just because the main one was useless.

On 1/24/2020 at 10:06 PM, TheThirteenth said:

Aqua needed help from her male counterparts in the realm of darkness and in her fight against Vanitas, even though she was set up as a strong character.

I don't disagree with this

On 1/25/2020 at 7:18 AM, Moogle13 said:

Kairi is the only badly written female. Olette is debatable, but she hasn't had much screen time and still has potential. Namine is caring, sweet and wants to do the right thing even if she must suffer for it. Aqua is motherly and would do anything for her friends, asking for help is no weakness. Xion has struggled and persevered and this is reflected through her personality. Must I go on? Every female has something unique, interesting and strong about them EXCEPT Kairi who is used mainly as a plot device. Don't dis Aqua, Namine, Xion, Ava and every other girl just because the main one was useless.

I don't entirely disagree with this either.

On 1/25/2020 at 1:31 AM, drew0594 said:

Since when getting help means that a character isn't strong? This basically goes against everything KH is about

I think this is a very simplistic way of framing the counter argument.

 

Overall the truth is somewhere in the middle, yes asking for help is not a sign of weakness at all, but the context is important. Namine, Xion and Aqua have all had good foundations for their character, and two of these characters have even had concluded arcs (Aqua was right at the end of hers but not quite there yet). I would absolutely argue that even in KH1 and KH2 Kairi was a decent character and we got a glimpse into what she's like and her motivations. However that's not KH3. All of these characters had their best showings in games that weren't KH3.

Namine was reduced to one missable cutscene where only her voice was heard. Xion was used as a pawn for something that was totally opposite to her motivations as a character, and now that we know it was Xion from shortly after her birth who was a nort, it makes even less sense. Aqua was treated absolutely terribly in KH3. After all that time in the realm of darkness what reduced her to becoming influenced was....a mega dark ball of darkness and destruction. Nice. Okay, so at least she gets to fight Vanitas and help Ven and-oh. She lost. Even though she's beaten Vanitas plenty of times as a much much *much* weaker character. Even if she was tired, she should have been leagues above this Vanitas who had come from a time prior to his last battle against her. Nothing wrong with asking for Sora for help but she shut Sora out, this should not have been the time for her to suffer something so embarrassing. Kairi....was Kairi.

 

Point is, all of these characters were done dirty in KH3, it's not about whether asking for help or not is a bad thing, don't latch onto the small things in people's arguments, it's about whether these characters were done justice, and truth be told anyone not named Sora was not.

2 hours ago, 2 quid is good said:

I don't disagree with this

I don't entirely disagree with this either.

I think this is a very simplistic way of framing the counter argument.

 

Overall the truth is somewhere in the middle, yes asking for help is not a sign of weakness at all, but the context is important. Namine, Xion and Aqua have all had good foundations for their character, and two of these characters have even had concluded arcs (Aqua was right at the end of hers but not quite there yet). I would absolutely argue that even in KH1 and KH2 Kairi was a decent character and we got a glimpse into what she's like and her motivations. However that's not KH3. All of these characters had their best showings in games that weren't KH3.

Namine was reduced to one missable cutscene where only her voice was heard. Xion was used as a pawn for something that was totally opposite to her motivations as a character, and now that we know it was Xion from shortly after her birth who was a nort, it makes even less sense. Aqua was treated absolutely terribly in KH3. After all that time in the realm of darkness what reduced her to becoming influenced was....a mega dark ball of darkness and destruction. Nice. Okay, so at least she gets to fight Vanitas and help Ven and-oh. She lost. Even though she's beaten Vanitas plenty of times as a much much *much* weaker character. Even if she was tired, she should have been leagues above this Vanitas who had come from a time prior to his last battle against her. Nothing wrong with asking for Sora for help but she shut Sora out, this should not have been the time for her to suffer something so embarrassing. Kairi....was Kairi.

 

Point is, all of these characters were done dirty in KH3, it's not about whether asking for help or not is a bad thing, don't latch onto the small things in people's arguments, it's about whether these characters were done justice, and truth be told anyone not named Sora was not.

It's not a counter argument, it's a question. The premise is "she got help [from male characters], so she is not strong", which I find to be foolish. It's not even about KH3 only, as it can be applied to other games as well, hence my question.

We also seem to have different definitions of "strong" which I suppose is fine.

Riku lost to a bunch of "enhanced" Heartlesses. Hell, he even got his Keyblade broke by them. And he is supposedly a KeYbLaDe MaStEr who helped in beating the strongest being up until this game - Xemnas - who has absorbed entire Kingdom Hearts. A fake one, sure, but that's still alotta power from all the hearts they've been gathering. And it's not like he didn't get help from Mickey during the Heartless battle.

Mickey has been always having a bad luck until Re:Mind.

Lea didn't do anything besides taking hits for someone else, at best.

Sora, even though he should be extremely OP in this game, he still takes tons of Ls in the cutscenes.

Ven has been instantly owned by Terranort like some amateur.

Aqua has been always winning against Vanitas. In fact, if he didn't attack Ven at the moment, and if Aqua wasn't weakened (BOTH OF WHICH HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT RIGHT IN YOUR FACE), she would, probably, win again. (EDIT: and how do you know she is "much much much" stronger now? We play her as a Keyblade Master already in the 1st game, and the only reason we level her up, is for the gameplay mechanics)

 

So no, it's not a gender-specific problem. It's the writing problem.

Edited January 27, 20205 yr by Enturax

On 1/27/2020 at 8:21 PM, Enturax said:

(EDIT: and how do you know she is "much much much" stronger now?

She's spent 10 years in the Realm of Darkness doing nothing but fight whereas Vanitas has been doing nothing in the same time period. You tell me how we know.

 

On 1/27/2020 at 8:21 PM, Enturax said:

Aqua has been always winning against Vanitas. In fact, if he didn't attack Ven at the moment, and if Aqua wasn't weakened (BOTH OF WHICH HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT RIGHT IN YOUR FACE)

Again, nothing in KH showed us Aqua was weak, all we got was sora saying "are you sure you wanna do this" or something similar. We know Aqua is a smart character, so why the hell did she decide to use her face to block vanitas' attack? She's been shown, in cgi and in game cutscenes going back to 2010, that she uses barrier spells from a distance to protect others, I mean it's literally in the BBS cgi.

 

This was terrible terrible writing of a character and totally got her wrong.

On 1/27/2020 at 8:21 PM, Enturax said:

So no, it's not a gender-specific problem. It's the writing problem.

I agree with this and the rest of your post

I wasn't a big fan on how they treated Aqua and Xion's returns in comparison to the heroic returns of Ventus, Terra, and Roxas. Aqua gets blasted into the ocean and Xion gets kicked by Xemnas. Kairi was a different matter altogether. I'm kinda over it now. There will be other games where they can shine again.

Spoiler

ReMind helped me a little with Kairi and I think she's getting better. Going forward I think she'll be good. Aqua and Xion can easily bounce back as they are already good characters so I'm not too worried. And ReMind gave Xion a badass boss fight.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 11:18 AM, 2 quid is good said:

She's spent 10 years in the Realm of Darkness doing nothing but fight whereas Vanitas has been doing nothing in the same time period. You tell me how we know.

 

Again, nothing in KH showed us Aqua was weak, all we got was sora saying "are you sure you wanna do this" or something similar. We know Aqua is a smart character, so why the hell did she decide to use her face to block vanitas' attack? She's been shown, in cgi and in game cutscenes going back to 2010, that she uses barrier spells from a distance to protect others, I mean it's literally in the BBS cgi.

 

This was terrible terrible writing of a character and totally got her wrong.

I agree with this and the rest of your post

TBH, it's hard to tell if she actually progressed since her Light was mostly getting only weaker.

Sora says that she hasn't "recovered yet", right before the fight starts.

And, yeah, it's very common in KH for characters to make dumb decisions. DDD was full of Sora doing facepalm-worthy stuff, like waiting several seconds until a Dream Eater in Fantasia world hits him. Or not taking out his Keyblade to block Tron's dics, making him, and Quorra (the female protag), both get knocked out by them...

Needless to say, I hate it too.

Edited January 30, 20205 yr by Enturax