8 billion dollars to China while still in a recession. Yeah.... No.

We're stupid enough that we'll be like college students. We'll take out more loans from other countries to try and make them off, therefore in the end making the problem inevitably worse. Obama sucks anyway. Admittedly Bush kinda ruined the economy so Obama can't be blamed, but like I've always been saying, despite what he says, the man can't walk on water.

We're stupid enough that we'll be like college students. We'll take out more loans from other countries to try and make them off, therefore in the end making the problem inevitably worse. Obama sucks anyway. Admittedly Bush kinda ruined the economy so Obama can't be blamed, but like I've always been saying, despite what he says, the man can't walk on water.

 

HE DA MESSIAH THO

We're stupid enough that we'll be like college students.

 

I take offense to that.

I take offense to that.

 

We're = America

It's okay, Sora, I value my life. I wouldn't insult Australia. ; D

Nope we're not going to get caught up anytime soon. It's gonna be a long time until we catch up with everything if there will ever be a time.

Hec no. In the meantime we're China's bitch

It's funny America could easily erase this debt if we (I'm American) closed tax loopholes and raised taxes in conjunction with cutting back our defense spending as well.

I think Obama's a great president, and he's done almost all that he's possibly able to, given the inane constraints Congress' utter inefficiency to make any good legislative decisions puts on him. Even so, we're in a shit storm. It's only a matter of time before China liquidates their holdings, and even if we miraculously pull ourselves out of debt before that happens, there's no preventing the inevitable - that is, China's rapid emergence as a hegemonic superpower (http://www.thepicky....ies_in_2050.jpg) and perhaps the total end of a unilateral international political economic system... which lays out two options: the dissemination of wealth in equal shares globally, i.e. including Third World countries, or multilateral competition between a series of insanely wealthy (and incredibly unstable) entities, i.e. China, the U.S., the EU, maybe Brazil, India, and Russia, and Walmart - you can see where that one might head. Plus, the effects of the eurocrisis will undoubtedly trickle down, and it doesn't help that member-states of the EU, in addition to Japan, are so obsessively focused on their own internal issues that they probably won't be thinking too much about international cooperation in preventing a massive global economic collapse anytime soon.

 

I don't have much hopes for the economy of the next few decades - we've (the Western world) put ourself in an irreversible situation and locked ourselves into a materialistic and predatory system that cannot sustain itself for much longer. Even if we make out by the skin of our teeth, it's only a matter of time before we experience absolute economic collapse. That said, I'm not a pessimist - on the contrary, I think such a disaster is a necessary step in revising not only our systems of government, politics, and economics, but also our entire outlooks... building a fair and equal system founded upon the bases of love and mutual humanity. Need something to wake us up first, though.

 

Guess I digressed a little bit.

I don't have much hopes for the economy of the next few decades - we've (the Western world) put ourself in an irreversible situation and locked ourselves into a materialistic and predatory system that cannot sustain itself for much longer. Even if we make out by the skin of our teeth, it's only a matter of time before we experience absolute economic collapse. That said, I'm not a pessimist - on the contrary, I think such a disaster is a necessary step in revising not only our systems of government, politics, and economics, but also our entire outlooks... building a fair and equal system founded upon the bases of love and mutual humanity. Need something to wake us up first, though.

 

Both the Eastern and Western worlds are going through shit right now. While the North and South continue to rise.

We're stupid enough that we'll be like college students.

tutti frutti. Not to mean to copy Sora on this, but being in college myself, and possibly anyone else on this site that goes to college, I find this offensive. There are other ways to pay for college outside of loans, such as financial aid, scholarships, grants, etc. Plus there are the few who wish to make a better future for themselves, but have a harder time paying for college outside of loans.

 

If the government is willing to buckle down and work harder towards getting rid of the US national debt, then I could definitely see this happening. If Bill Clinton was able to not only rid US of the national debt during his two terms, but is able to allow the country to make money, then I believe that we just need someone who is not only willing to do that, but has a solid plan to do so without raising the taxes, like what legendkiller stated, among other issues. If stuff like that happens, then I don't doubt that it could happen. Do I see Congress doing this? I have my doubts.

tutti frutti. Not to mean to copy Sora on this, but being in college myself, and possibly anyone else on this site that goes to college, I find this offensive. There are other ways to pay for college outside of loans, such as financial aid, scholarships, grants, etc. Plus there are the few who wish to make a better future for themselves, but have a harder time paying for college outside of loans.

 

If the government is willing to buckle down and work harder towards getting rid of the US national debt, then I could definitely see this happening. If Bill Clinton was able to not only rid US of the national debt during his two terms, but is able to allow the country to make money, then I believe that we just need someone who is not only willing to do that, but has a solid plan to do so without raising the taxes, like what legendkiller stated, among other issues. If stuff like that happens, then I don't doubt that it could happen. Do I see Congress doing this? I have my doubts.

 

I'm aware of how college works. Honestly the majority of college students DO take out loans, and then you run into people who will do things like try to pay off one credit card with another, to keep the interest rate from skyrocketing. Or how they try to trick you into using credit cards--a scam that works quite well on college students. Also, you do actually have to pay for financial aid eventually, and 99% of scholarships don't pay for everything. Some just for your books, some for your dorm, ect. It's extremely rare to have them offer to let you go to college for free.

I find some of these posts quite funny..First off, a large fraction of the US national debt is from the US bailing out other countries all over the world with money we dont even have and said countries expect but dont appreciate.We are expected to be the freaking world police and yet when we need help we often get none .Look at Hurricane Katrina ..Did other countries come and assist ? What about 9/11? I dont see other countries funding that recovery.We are expected to fix our own problems and everyone elses.Then when we do intervene we get slammed for intervening.If we dont intervene we get shit on for not helping..Also, when government policies are established and put into place with every different presidentsy people dont realize said results take time to trickle down and effect the economic stabilty..Im not a Bush fan ,but at the same time everyone blames the economy on him.Clintons " success" was largely due to things Bush SR implemented in his presidentsy..A lot of economic collapses are due to things Clinton changed and implemented in his terms whose effects were witnessed during Bush JRs terms.People dont realize who is actually responsible for what bc the effects of certain administrations arent immediate and trickle down for years after...

I don't care.

Incoming conservative rant...

 

I think Obama's a great president, and he's done almost all that he's possibly able to, given the inane constraints Congress' utter inefficiency to make any good legislative decisions puts on him.

What he was able to do wasn't good enough. Plus the president shouldn't be doing much work anyway. America is a country made by the people, for the people. Relying on someone else to get shit done is not how things are supposed to work around here. It's good congress has made Obama their bitch because the less he can do stuff, the less he can screw up the country.

 

Even so, we're in a shit storm. It's only a matter of time before China liquidates their holdings, and even if we miraculously pull ourselves out of debt before that happens, there's no preventing the inevitable - that is, China's rapid emergence as a hegemonic superpower (http://www.thepicky....ies_in_2050.jpg) and perhaps the total end of a unilateral international political economic system... which lays out two options: the dissemination of wealth in equal shares globally, i.e. including Third World countries, or multilateral competition between a series of insanely wealthy (and incredibly unstable) entities, i.e. China, the U.S., the EU, maybe Brazil, India, and Russia, and Walmart - you can see where that one might head. Plus, the effects of the eurocrisis will undoubtedly trickle down, and it doesn't help that member-states of the EU, in addition to Japan, are so obsessively focused on their own internal issues that they probably won't be thinking too much about international cooperation in preventing a massive global economic collapse anytime soon.

Another super-power isn't going to lead to economic collapse. The global economy didn't to crap when America showed who's boss nor did it happen when Russia decided to join the party. The more people to large scale international deals will help. Plus international cooperation is an unrealistic idea. The reason why the nations of the world have never been able to unite under one flag is because we are all different, which is a good thing.

 

 

don't have much hopes for the economy of the next few decades - we've (the Western world) put ourself in an irreversible situation and locked ourselves into a materialistic and predatory system that cannot sustain itself for much longer. Even if we make out by the skin of our teeth, it's only a matter of time before we experience absolute economic collapse. That said, I'm not a pessimist - on the contrary, I think such a disaster is a necessary step in revising not only our systems of government, politics, and economics, but also our entire outlooks... building a fair and equal system founded upon the bases of love and mutual humanity. Need something to wake us up first, though.

Our materialistic and predetory system has only given us sucess. It's idiots trying to intervene and mess with the system that try to screw it up. There are entire civilizations that lasted thousands of years in almost total anarchy and enjoyed great propserity with it. If you let the naturally economic cycles of great properity followed by great depression occur how they should then things will always be find at the end of the day. However when people try to intervene you interupt the cycle. The moments of depression may be extended, which Obama is doing by increasing inflation and the moments of prosperity may be short lived.

 

Our economic systems should not be based around "love" and "humanity". If a business is doing something that people consider bad then people won't buy from them and thus the business will go bankrupt. Plus, all it would take to dirupt this system is a handful of hateful and inhuman people.

 

Both the Eastern and Western worlds are going through shit right now. While the North and South continue to rise.

The whole East and West idea was based off of Cold War policies where nations west of the Berlin Wall practiced capitalism and the nations east of it practiced communism.

 

Technically Australia is the west.

 

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Plus the whole debt thing with China is really insignificant. They need us about 1000 times more than we need them.

Our materialistic and predetory system has only given us sucess. It's idiots trying to intervene and mess with the system that try to screw it up. There are entire civilizations that lasted thousands of years in almost total anarchy and enjoyed great propserity with it. If you let the naturally economic cycles of great properity followed by great depression occur how they should then things will always be find at the end of the day. However when people try to intervene you interupt the cycle. The moments of depression may be extended, which Obama is doing by increasing inflation and the moments of prosperity may be short lived.

 

I'd respond to all of your responses in more detail, because I like good conversation, but I'm limited on time and feel the urgent need to respond, at least, to the bolded statement above.

 

Dear God, mate, is this really your outlook? Do you have any idea the damage "our success" has rendered upon the unfortunate population lying outside our exclusive little circle of liberalized/industrialized Western states? The numbers, when you actually look at them, I assure you, will devastate you (and if they don't, you're a heartless being). The sheer amount of exploitation and gains at our end (and that's another issue altogether - the gains made by MNCs, the primary sources of the FDI/other foreign investments coming out of US capital, are hardly advantageous, on a direct level, to an American layman anyway) at the expense of jobs, capital, markets, skilled (and unskilled) labor in LDCs and even NICs is ludicrous. Furthermore, "law of comparative advantage" my ass - the division of labor between developing countries and developed countries hardly even exists when a mass portion of those have virtually one or two primary products to export, many of them the same products, at that, allowing for even more exploitation of the resulting monopsony and ludicrous terms of trade on our end. So, OK, if liberalization is working so well for us, let's just ship it overseas to those less fortunate countries. Let's take a look at what many of our MNCs do (many of which, mind you, including Walmart, General Motors, BP, Toyota, etc, have total sales surpassing the GDPs of many countries): Firstly, they avoid paying their fair share of taxes through transfer-pricing mechanisms designed to transfer their colossal profits to countries where taxes are lower. What that effectively does is, say an American manufacturer produces parts then ships them to Mexico for assembly, to then be shipped back. But, Mexico demands a higher tax on corporate profits than the US, where the MNC is based - the MNC can then overprice the parts shipped to Mexico and underprice the assembled parts that are "sold" back to the American firm back home. In other words, the MNC pays lower taxes at the expense of the Mexican subsidiary, who now makes very little. This happens more often than you'd think. As if that weren't enough, MNCs remove scarce capital from LDCs by charging royalties and licensing fees for manufacturing products on which they hold copyrights AND, through bribery/lobbying of corrupt government officials overseas (and trust me, there are lots of them - people are desperate), they get special tax breaks. The indirect effects are profound, as well. Sure, MNCs transport technology to their foreign subsidiaries - industrialization, good! ...you might say. Unfortunately, most of the technology transferred is capital-intensive technology requiring expensive equipment and skilled workers, which not only does little to amend high local unemployment rates in those regions, but actually stunts the development of local technology, discourages local research/development, and drives out local entrepreneurs, leaving those regions even worse off than they already were. And not only do they not, usually, bring capital into LDCs but often set up businesses that use up the limited supply of local capital available for the sake of self-interest and preservation of their oh so limited resources. Moreover, bank loans to MNCs mean less money is available for local entrepreneurs to borrow, and the resulting competition from MNCs can destroy existing domestic industries.

 

If you have any desire to help out countries that are not the U.S., Canada, Australia/New Zealand, Western European, or Japan, I'd advise changing your outlook on what system is efficient and equitable.

The United States had to go through this period eventually. When you have an economy that only boomed because of the fact that after WWII we were the only country that was stable and not destroyed by war, we created. Then in the 60s when countries were catching up we invented new tech and push boundaries. What happened to our economy was that with trickle down economics that was implemented in 80s we saw a growth in our nation's total wealth and an increase in the wages of the bottom 90% however it created a bigger gap. This bigger gap created an unequal power shift to the 1% which led to them having a huge impact on laws written. When a small group of people can have a huge impact on a country they get what they want. Therefore they got laws that kept them in power and halted innovation. This leads to the government having to subsidize and cover costs of those businesses' failing or fading industries. Which leads to a country having to borrow from others. Also, remember that American jobs are going over seas and American companies are losing their edge because after a while other countries will catch up eventually and they have. The key is to innovate and renew old ideas. Then when you have a booming economy taxing more on the rich becomes less of an issue because it helps the govt and the businesses that the rich own.

i really don't know, probably not

I'm aware of how college works. Honestly the majority of college students DO take out loans, and then you run into people who will do things like try to pay off one credit card with another, to keep the interest rate from skyrocketing. Or how they try to trick you into using credit cards--a scam that works quite well on college students. Also, you do actually have to pay for financial aid eventually, and 99% of scholarships don't pay for everything. Some just for your books, some for your dorm, ect. It's extremely rare to have them offer to let you go to college for free.

 

tf. I'm am simply upset by that fact that college students were called stupid, which includes myself. Not everyone is perfect. Yes, people DO take out loans for college, but for other things in life such as cars and homes. There are those that don't think before they act. Things such as scholarships, among other programs like financial aid, do help and students have no other choice to pay for their schooling other than loans.

tf. I'm am simply upset by that fact that college students were called stupid, which includes myself. Not everyone is perfect. Yes, people DO take out loans for college, but for other things in life such as cars and homes. There are those that don't think before they act. Things such as scholarships, among other programs like financial aid, do help and students have no other choice to pay for their schooling other than loans.

 

Maybe I didn't phrase that the proper way. My main point basically is that they're not making decisions that are in the end best for the nation--they're focused too much on themselves and less important things. I didn't mean any offense to college students in general, because I know that description only fits some of them.

SO 8 billion to china.... We are already a trillion or so in Dept, hmm lets think, ah yes lets raise the taxes more and spend more for unnecessary military funds that we don't need and while were at it lets help china ah yes brilliant plan.

I'd respond to all of your responses in more detail, because I like good conversation, but I'm limited on time and feel the urgent need to respond, at least, to the bolded statement above.

 

Dear God, mate, is this really your outlook? Do you have any idea the damage "our success" has rendered upon the unfortunate population lying outside our exclusive little circle of liberalized/industrialized Western states? The numbers, when you actually look at them, I assure you, will devastate you (and if they don't, you're a heartless being). The sheer amount of exploitation and gains at our end (and that's another issue altogether - the gains made by MNCs, the primary sources of the FDI/other foreign investments coming out of US capital, are hardly advantageous, on a direct level, to an American layman anyway) at the expense of jobs, capital, markets, skilled (and unskilled) labor in LDCs and even NICs is ludicrous. Furthermore, "law of comparative advantage" my ass - the division of labor between developing countries and developed countries hardly even exists when a mass portion of those have virtually one or two primary products to export, many of them the same products, at that, allowing for even more exploitation of the resulting monopsony and ludicrous terms of trade on our end. So, OK, if liberalization is working so well for us, let's just ship it overseas to those less fortunate countries. Let's take a look at what many of our MNCs do (many of which, mind you, including Walmart, General Motors, BP, Toyota, etc, have total sales surpassing the GDPs of many countries): Firstly, they avoid paying their fair share of taxes through transfer-pricing mechanisms designed to transfer their colossal profits to countries where taxes are lower. What that effectively does is, say an American manufacturer produces parts then ships them to Mexico for assembly, to then be shipped back. But, Mexico demands a higher tax on corporate profits than the US, where the MNC is based - the MNC can then overprice the parts shipped to Mexico and underprice the assembled parts that are "sold" back to the American firm back home. In other words, the MNC pays lower taxes at the expense of the Mexican subsidiary, who now makes very little. This happens more often than you'd think. As if that weren't enough, MNCs remove scarce capital from LDCs by charging royalties and licensing fees for manufacturing products on which they hold copyrights AND, through bribery/lobbying of corrupt government officials overseas (and trust me, there are lots of them - people are desperate), they get special tax breaks. The indirect effects are profound, as well. Sure, MNCs transport technology to their foreign subsidiaries - industrialization, good! ...you might say. Unfortunately, most of the technology transferred is capital-intensive technology requiring expensive equipment and skilled workers, which not only does little to amend high local unemployment rates in those regions, but actually stunts the development of local technology, discourages local research/development, and drives out local entrepreneurs, leaving those regions even worse off than they already were. And not only do they not, usually, bring capital into LDCs but often set up businesses that use up the limited supply of local capital available for the sake of self-interest and preservation of their oh so limited resources. Moreover, bank loans to MNCs mean less money is available for local entrepreneurs to borrow, and the resulting competition from MNCs can destroy existing domestic industries.

 

If you have any desire to help out countries that are not the U.S., Canada, Australia/New Zealand, Western European, or Japan, I'd advise changing your outlook on what system is efficient and equitable.

 

 

Is our "exploitation" over seas as bad as you try to make it out though? Do you know why people are actually working under these conditions? It's because they have no choice. A comfortable area of work in a third world nation? They have almost all been taken buddy. Without our companies offering massive amounts of people work there would be starvation, even more poverty, even civil unrest. These "exploits" are the only things that are keeping a lot of people alive.

 

MNCs are pretty much required to take care of the countries they have business in to an extent. It's all about public relations really but if people from the US are going to a factory in Pakistan and see conditions that are borderline slavery you have a PR disaster that could cost the company millions. Have you seen the film "Hotel Rwanda" or at least heard of the Genocides that took place there in 1994? Over 1000 people were saved in a 5 star hotel in the capital. The owners of the hotel, all the way in Belgium considered closing it down should shit hit the fan (which it did). But they didn't. Why? Do you know what would happen to the hotel chain when people here that they essentially sentenced thousnads of innocent people to be butchered? The entire company would be flat out broke or go have their 5 star resorts turned into truck stops.

 

Plus, everything is just a matter of Social Darwinism. The more developed countries are naturally going to gain dominence over the least developed ones. Trying to raise (or lower) each nation to the same level will prove disasterous. Some cultures thrive with a technologically "inferior" (for the lack of a better term) society while others pratically worship the pixels that dance across their glass screens. For business purposes, areas need either small rapid amounts of modernization, or slow modernization over time. Do you know why Europeans were able to take over the Americas from the natives so quickly? Guns. Do you know why the Europeans struggled to mentain their dominance over the Americas for a time? The natives got guns. If you just give the locals all the technology they need to keep up with the rest of the world there would be massive destablization. Who should have acess to this new technology? How should it be used?

 

Look at India. Britian slowly and carefully modernized it for business purposes. When they left did the country go to shit? No! They developed nuclear weapons and became a world power. Yeah there is still a shitton of poverty, but only because it is one of the most heavily populated nations on earth.

Tg that option 3 has yet to be voted for.

SO 8 billion to china.... We are already a trillion or so in Dept, hmm lets think, ah yes lets raise the taxes more and spend more for unnecessary military funds that we don't need and while were at it lets help china ah yes brilliant plan.

 

They raise the taxes to help pay it off. ._. taxes = more money = debt paid

The military funds are not unnessecary, they are beyond important. It words like this: if we leave them alone, then they try to set off bombs and kill us. And I sorta kinda like being alive.

We're not helping China--they helped us. They loaned the U.S. money and now we have to pay it back. We're not helping them. It's totally reversed in this situation.

Technically Australia is the west.

 

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Lol. We are the south.

 

The United States had to go through this period eventually. When you have an economy that only boomed because of the fact that after WWII we were the only country that was stable and not destroyed by war

 

We were not destroyed by war. And we never will be. All we ever got was the bombings in Darwin and Broome. And both of those cities stood after the the bombings.

 

Australia FTW!

Lol. We are the south.

 

 

 

We were not destroyed by war. And we never will be. All we ever got was the bombings in Darwin and Broome. And both of those cities stood after the the bombings.

 

Australia FTW!

 

LMAO If the US hadnt entered the war Im sure Australia wouldve fallen/ been taken over . One of the reasons Japan bombed Pearl Harbor was to attempt to disable a very serious future threat of the Sleeping Giant known as the US.. They were already taking over/ attacking every territory/island/country in the Pacific on.