It's something I see thrown around a lot, people complain about the protagonist of a video game being a Mary Sue/Gary Stue

 

And here's the thing, in any other genre, they would be

but these are video games

A character being competent is a fundamental aspect of a video game. The skill behind each action doesn't come from the character themselves, but the player. So yeah, when a game covers a wide range it would start to look silly in other genres. Tidus is apparently the best Blitzball player ever, a master Chocobo racer, butterfly catcher, dodger of lightning, solver of puzzles, tracker of Cactuars, and a talented swordsman AND the only person who could figure out how to defeat Sin. And more, probably

 

The issue is, at the end of the day, games are about accomplishing specific objectives, and a character needs to be consistent for that. Even a game where you aren't meant to be empowered still has you play as a super human, you won't often see a playable character who can stumble and get exhausted. And gameplay doesn't exist in a vacuum, so this competence tends to leak over to the story. When it DOESN'T things get weird "I just go shot fifty times in that last battle, but now this guy threatens me with a sword and I have to surrender?"

 

There are very few ways currently known that game deveoeprs can use to actually introduce a flaws or a chance of failure into a game, and none of them are really good if used regularly, since they all hurt gameplay and empowerment. One of the most common ones is the unwinnable fight, where the enemy either can't be beaten, or enemies keep coming until you die. But imagine if that was happening all the time in the game, it'd get incredibly unsatisfying as your never accomplished anything with your battles. You can already see shades of this in games where they have you BEAT an enemy in a game only to have them beat you in a cutscene. Because again, having the character be flawed in gameplay isn't very fun.

 

Overall, I just kinda feel like Mary Sue is kinda a useless term in gaming, it applies to basically every game

Good on you, hatok! Gained some respect from me today. . I think the term is blindly misused nowadays. I dun think people often understand when they can use that term. Though, I do believe games should do the whole, you lost to the enrmy thing more often. Like, make the fight a losing battle so even the cutscene makes sense.

Over the years, 'Mary Sue' is a term that's become meaningless to me in general, for any kind of medium. It's been so watered down overtime that Mary Sue has been thrown at any kind of character from the stereotypical perfect character, to someone allegedly useless, to simply just a character the accuser doesn't like. It's a go-to term that everyone has their own definition for.

 

As for games, I've never seen people in all seriousness call player characters Mary Sues because they're good at the game. Tidus isn't a Mary Sue because he's a star at gameplay. I thought succeeding at those things had less to do with the character and more to do with taking advantage of what the game has to offer -- and I assumed it's the same for everyone else. In terms of being a star Blitzball player and the one to figure out how to defeat Sin, there are in-story justifications for that: he's been training for Blitzball his whole life to keep equal footing with his father, and his being an outsider not influenced by Yevon's loop is how he's able to look past it for another option. He'd be a Mary Sue if did those things 'just because.'

Good on you, hatok! Gained some respect from me today. . I think the term is blindly misused nowadays. I dun think people often understand when they can use that term. Though, I do believe games should do the whole, you lost to the enrmy thing more often. Like, make the fight a losing battle so even the cutscene makes sense.

if they're going to make you lose in a cutscene then yeah, I'd rather it be shown in gameplay

personally I still hate not knowing and wasting good items on what I will probably assume is a difficulty spike

Hopefully this isn't a respond to a topic I made today.

 

I don't mind a character being competent at what they do heck I like my protagonists to be competent

 

What I don't like is if said character is written to be perfect and flawless and never make any sort of mistake or have no shortcomings and barely shows emotions

You could argue that Sora is something of a Mary Sue given his connection to basically every character in the series, but I'd argue that that's precisely the point and he's presented as enough of a flawed individual who makes mistakes that he doesn't fit the name completely. 

You could argue that Sora is something of a Mary Sue given his connection to basically every character in the series, but I'd argue that that's precisely the point and he's presented as enough of a flawed individual who makes mistakes that he doesn't fit the name completely. 

He isn't a Mary Su but it's hard to convince people he's otherwise

 

Sure he did make mistakes but they were never big ones with huge reprocutions(sorry for the wrong spelling) compared to the mistakes the other characters made since so far nothing of what happened made Sora feel that much of a guilt except for few moments here and there nor did he felt what Roxas felt when he lost Xion or what Terra felt when he lost Eraqus

 

I'm not saying Sora is a mary su all I'm saying is that he needs more character development

Pretty sure Sora made a huge mistake in 3D. He normally doesnt make mistakes that big, but he has plenty of character development, though i agree that everyone in kh needs more development.

Pretty sure Sora made a huge mistake in 3D. He normally doesnt make mistakes that big, but he has plenty of character development, though i agree that everyone in kh needs more development.

Ummm I don't know what mistake he made there other than Yen Sid sending him right into Organization XIII's trap.It's less of Sora's mistake and more of Yen Sid's incompetence of stripping two warriors from their abilities and send them on their test completely vulnerable 

The only true Mary sue in video games is this person:

 

Why is her legs like orange

Ummm I don't know what mistake he made there other than Yen Sid sending him right into Organization XIII's trap.It's less of Sora's mistake and more of Yen Sid's incompetence of stripping two warriors from their abilities and send them on their test completely vulnerable

Sora continued to fall into it though. They kept trying to wake him, but he refused to do so.

Sora continued to fall into it though. They kept trying to wake him, but he refused to do so.

How would he know that if he was sent into the trap and there was nothing he can do about it but move forward with the test otherwise he would fail....I know he failed but he couldn't afford to just stop

How would he know that if he was sent into the trap and there was nothing he can do about it but move forward with the test otherwise he would fail....I know he failed but he couldn't afford to just stop

Which is partially his fault. Sora has always been naive and that's had a huge impact on who he is as a character.

Who is Mary suing and in what video game? 

Hopefully this isn't a respond to a topic I made today.

 

I don't mind a character being competent at what they do heck I like my protagonists to be competent

 

What I don't like is if said character is written to be perfect and flawless and never make any sort of mistake or have no shortcomings and barely shows emotions

It's partially related, but something I've been thinking about for a while, in fact I'm thinking a video about it

 

You could argue that Sora is something of a Mary Sue given his connection to basically every character in the series, but I'd argue that that's precisely the point and he's presented as enough of a flawed individual who makes mistakes that he doesn't fit the name completely. 

But him making connections is the reason he's the person you play as. This goes beyond just video games, a protagonist is almost always important, not because of lazy writing or something, but because you're following THEIR story, so of course you'll follow the person interesting things happen to. This becomes more prominent in games where those special things can also carry over into gameplay

 

He isn't a Mary Su but it's hard to convince people he's otherwise

 

Sure he did make mistakes but they were never big ones with huge reprocutions(sorry for the wrong spelling) compared to the mistakes the other characters made since so far nothing of what happened made Sora feel that much of a guilt except for few moments here and there nor did he felt what Roxas felt when he lost Xion or what Terra felt when he lost Eraqus

 

I'm not saying Sora is a mary su all I'm saying is that he needs more character development

Sora has by and far the most developed character in KH. The mark of a good character isn't how much guilt they feel, or how badly they screw up, though that would explain why people love Riku as a character so much.

 

Pretty sure Sora made a huge mistake in 3D. He normally doesnt make mistakes that big, but he has plenty of character development, though i agree that everyone in kh needs more development.

I view KH as a "big concept" story. It's not so much about giving as a wide spectrum with every character as it is using characters as cogs in an advetnure

 

Ummm I don't know what mistake he made there other than Yen Sid sending him right into Organization XIII's trap.It's less of Sora's mistake and more of Yen Sid's incompetence of stripping two warriors from their abilities and send them on their test completely vulnerable 

Sora's mistake was letting his emotions control him. He ultimately gave in to the temptation put in front of him and ignored Riku's warnings as a result.

 

How would he know that if he was sent into the trap and there was nothing he can do about it but move forward with the test otherwise he would fail....I know he failed but he couldn't afford to just stop

he could ahve easily just stopped. Why does he need to chase random apparitions?

 

Who is Mary suing and in what video game? 

I can't think of anything witty to say D:

The only true Mary sue in video games is this person:

 

Why is her legs like orange

she's wearing leggings

 

 

I can't think of anything witty to say D:

 

Well the obvious answer to what video game should've been Phoenix Wright. Come on hatok.

Well the obvious answer to what video game should've been Phoenix Wright. Come on hatok.

I was thinking about that, but I didn't want to make a claim about a series I've never played

I was thinking about that, but I didn't want to make a claim about a series I've never played

 

I haven't either. But I've heard good things. Except about Mary. She's such a Mary Sue.

 Sora has always been naive and that's had a huge impact on who he is as a character.

Hence why I said he needs more character development

It's partially related, but something I've been thinking about for a while, in fact I'm thinking a video about itBut him making connections is the reason he's the person you play as. This goes beyond just video games, a protagonist is almost always important, not because of lazy writing or something, but because you're following THEIR story, so of course you'll follow the person interesting things happen to. This becomes more prominent in games where those special things can also carry over into gameplaySora has by and far the most developed character in KH. The mark of a good character isn't how much guilt they feel, or how badly they screw up, though that would explain why people love Riku as a character so much.I view KH as a "big concept" story. It's not so much about giving as a wide spectrum with every character as it is using characters as cogs in an advetnureSora's mistake was letting his emotions control him. He ultimately gave in to the temptation put in front of him and ignored Riku's warnings as a result.he could ahve easily just stopped. Why does he need to chase random apparitions?I can't think of anything witty to say D:she's wearing leggings

I figured but it really doesn't suit her. It looks really weird and awkward on her in my opinion

It's partially related, but something I've been thinking about for a while, in fact I'm thinking a video about it

 

But him making connections is the reason he's the person you play as. This goes beyond just video games, a protagonist is almost always important, not because of lazy writing or something, but because you're following THEIR story, so of course you'll follow the person interesting things happen to. This becomes more prominent in games where those special things can also carry over into gameplay

 

Sora has by and far the most developed character in KH. The mark of a good character isn't how much guilt they feel, or how badly they screw up, though that would explain why people love Riku as a character so much.

 

I view KH as a "big concept" story. It's not so much about giving as a wide spectrum with every character as it is using characters as cogs in an advetnure

 

Sora's mistake was letting his emotions control him. He ultimately gave in to the temptation put in front of him and ignored Riku's warnings as a result.

 

he could ahve easily just stopped. Why does he need to chase random apparitions?

 

I can't think of anything witty to say D:

she's wearing leggings

Way to miss my point

 

I didn't meant that he's obligated to feel guilty

 

I meant that they should show us him learning from his mistakes which what needs to happen in KH3

 

If your mistakes doesn't have any consequences how much can you learn from them especially since later on they'll be IN THE MIDDLE OF A FREAKIN WAR were casualities will occur no matter what.You can't tell me he can possibly save every single one,there has to be that one character that will fall that will trigger something inside him that would encourage him further to defeat Xehanort other than "Oh Xehanort is the bad guy he has to be stopped"

 

Xehanort needs to mess up with Sora,heck having Sora using both the power of darkness and light would be something interesting both in gameplay and narrative(shoutout to Cecil from the Final Fantasy series)

Hence why I said he needs more character development

Being naive doesn't open way for character development. It is character development. Sora being naive is part of his well developed character. Being naive and childish has opened Sora's kind-hearted traits, such as seeing the good in others before the bad, his positive attitude toward any situation they get in. Speaking of which, he has incredible amounts of courage, braving tasks that others couldn't believe possible.

It's something I see thrown around a lot, people complain about the protagonist of a video game being a Mary Sue/Gary Stue

 

And here's the thing, in any other genre, they would be

but these are video games

A character being competent is a fundamental aspect of a video game. The skill behind each action doesn't come from the character themselves, but the player. So yeah, when a game covers a wide range it would start to look silly in other genres. Tidus is apparently the best Blitzball player ever, a master Chocobo racer, butterfly catcher, dodger of lightning, solver of puzzles, tracker of Cactuars, and a talented swordsman AND the only person who could figure out how to defeat Sin. And more, probably

 

The issue is, at the end of the day, games are about accomplishing specific objectives, and a character needs to be consistent for that. Even a game where you aren't meant to be empowered still has you play as a super human, you won't often see a playable character who can stumble and get exhausted. And gameplay doesn't exist in a vacuum, so this competence tends to leak over to the story. When it DOESN'T things get weird "I just go shot fifty times in that last battle, but now this guy threatens me with a sword and I have to surrender?"

 

There are very few ways currently known that game deveoeprs can use to actually introduce a flaws or a chance of failure into a game, and none of them are really good if used regularly, since they all hurt gameplay and empowerment. One of the most common ones is the unwinnable fight, where the enemy either can't be beaten, or enemies keep coming until you die. But imagine if that was happening all the time in the game, it'd get incredibly unsatisfying as your never accomplished anything with your battles. You can already see shades of this in games where they have you BEAT an enemy in a game only to have them beat you in a cutscene. Because again, having the character be flawed in gameplay isn't very fun.

 

Overall, I just kinda feel like Mary Sue is kinda a useless term in gaming, it applies to basically every game

 

Good on you, hatok! Gained some respect from me today. . I think the term is blindly misused nowadays. I dun think people often understand when they can use that term. Though, I do believe games should do the whole, you lost to the enrmy thing more often. Like, make the fight a losing battle so even the cutscene makes sense.

 

Over the years, 'Mary Sue' is a term that's become meaningless to me in general, for any kind of medium. It's been so watered down overtime that Mary Sue has been thrown at any kind of character from the stereotypical perfect character, to someone allegedly useless, to simply just a character the accuser doesn't like. It's a go-to term that everyone has their own definition for.

 

As for games, I've never seen people in all seriousness call player characters Mary Sues because they're good at the game. Tidus isn't a Mary Sue because he's a star at gameplay. I thought succeeding at those things had less to do with the character and more to do with taking advantage of what the game has to offer -- and I assumed it's the same for everyone else. In terms of being a star Blitzball player and the one to figure out how to defeat Sin, there are in-story justifications for that: he's been training for Blitzball his whole life to keep equal footing with his father, and his being an outsider not influenced by Yevon's loop is how he's able to look past it for another option. He'd be a Mary Sue if did those things 'just because.'

Agreed to all. Mary Sue is a term that has been watered down from "A perfect character with special and unique abilites no one else has who is instantly liked by everyone and good at everything with no solid basis for havingthese abilities" to a character someone just doesn't like

You could argue that Sora is something of a Mary Sue given his connection to basically every character in the series, but I'd argue that that's precisely the point and he's presented as enough of a flawed individual who makes mistakes that he doesn't fit the name completely. 

Well if I got into a discussion about that with someone I'd say that he's not a Mary Sue because he's not instantly good at everyting as shown by him always loosing to Riku on the islands, or at least loosing more often than winning and he lost his first fight with Leon,  (Unless you where really good at the game an even then he over exerts himself. The 'canon' event is that he alwasys looses in those situations). If he had fought a properly trained weilder in KH 1, he'd never have made it to CoM.

Hence why I said he needs more character development

He has had charater development, just a more subtle kind than the others.KHI: Nieve kid who happens to get caught up in a series of events> CoM: Headtrong kid who becomes so obsessed with someone he didn't even really know that he left his most constant companions behind> KH II: Cocky young man who was always secretly jealous of his best friend> 3D: Confidant young man who doesn't even care that his best freind passed a test that he himself failed and is, in fact, more happy for his friend than he would be for himself.He can't afford to lose that nievite he had because that is what makes him special and allows him to form bonds with so many people. So what ever other development he has, he needs to keep that otherwise he's not even himself anymore. Yes he could become less gullible, but he musn't loose his sincere beleif in the goodess of people. He's like Goku from DB/DBZ/DBGT or Anna from Frozen in that way

Edited November 3, 201410 yr by Isamu_Kuno

Agreed to all. Mary Sue is a term that has been watered down from "A perfect character with special and unique abilites no one else has who is instantly liked by everyone and good at everything with no solid basis for havign these abilities" to a character someone just doesn't like

Well if I got into a discussion about that with someone I'd say that he's not a Mary Sue because he's not instantly good at everyting as shown by him always loosing to Riku on the islands, or at least loosing more often than winning and he lost his first fight with Leon,  (Unless you where really good at the game an even then he over exerts himself. The 'canon' event is that he alwasys looses in those situations). If he had fought a properly trained weilder in KH 1, he'd never have made it to CoM.

He has had charater development, just a more subtle kind than the others.KHI: Nieve kid who happens to get caught up in a series of events> CoM: Headtrong kid who becomes so obsessed with someone he didn't even really know that he left his most constant companions behind> KH II: Cocky young man who was always secretly jealous of his best friend> 3D: Confidant young man who doesn't even care that his best freind passed a test that he himself failed and is, in fact, more happy for his friend than he would be for himself.He can't afford to lose that nievite he had because that is what makes him special and allows him to form bonds with so many people. So what ever other development he has, he needs to keep that otherwise he's not even himself anymore. Yes he could become less gullible, but he musn't loose his sincere beleif in the goodess of people. He's like Goku from DB/DBZ/DBGT or Anna from Frozen in that way

I agree with Sora's case. Sora's always been naive, it's one of the core parts of his personality. He's always followed his heart rather than think things through and use logic (like say, Riku does now), which is why he's the main protagonist. His personality allows him to see the good in others, and that basically led to him connecting him to everyone else that's important the plot (almost everyone anyway), heck they even call him "The Key" to saving everyone because of his unique personality that seperates him from everyone else and why he alone is the only one with the power to achieve that.

 

Honestly, he's pretty much a Shonen Jump Protagonist, to take away Sora's naivety would be to change his character entirely and take away the meaning and the point of why he's like this in the first place. I mean sure, his reckless nature screwed him over in 3D, but that's just how Sora is, and i doubt anything's going to change that at this point.

Edited November 3, 201410 yr by Reyn

I agree with Sora's case. Sora's always been naive, it's one of the core parts of his personality. He's always followed his heart rather than think things through and use logic (like say, Riku does now), which is why he's the main protagonist. His personality allows him to see the good in others, and that basically led to him connecting him to everyone else that's important the plot (almost everyone anyway), heck they even call him "The Key" to saving everyone because of his unique personality that seperates him from everyone else and why he alone is the only one with the power to achieve that.Honestly, he's pretty much a Shonen Jump Protagonist, to take away Sora's naivety would be to change his character entirely and take away the meaning and the point of why he's like this in the first place. I mean sure, his reckless nature screwed him over in 3D, but that's just how Sora is, and i doubt anything's going to change that at this point.

Sora and Riku are literally the Naruto and Sasuke of KH. The themes are extremely similar even. I mean, they even pulled the "I'm the real villain, no I am!" card.

Being naive doesn't open way for character development. It is character development. Sora being naive is part of his well developed character. Being naive and childish has opened Sora's kind-hearted traits, such as seeing the good in others before the bad, his positive attitude toward any situation they get in. Speaking of which, he has incredible amounts of courage, braving tasks that others couldn't believe possible.

Okay I think I didn't explain myself properly here

 

I never minded naive characters heck Gon from Hunter X Hunter is basically the same character as Sora but I still love him

 

My issue is we didn't spend enough time with him as a main character,sure he got more than the others but still not enough for us to see how he would deal with different situations

 

What I want is I want Sora to be put in a variety of situations and see how he would deal with them instead of the exact same scenario of making friends in 5 minutes(Neku,and also Ventus and Lea,are examples of this).

 

That's what I want to see in KH3,I want to see Xehanort causing troubles to him in an attempt to make him the 13th vessel again and I wanna see how he would deal with it instead of seeing Xehanort getting defeated the same way as his Heartless and nobody were.