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HarLea Quinn

Something That Bothers Me

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I don't think so. Even BBS's part about the X-Blade was convoluted. The whole thing started with MX wanting another vessel, which was Ventus. He wanted another vessel bc he was old and feared dying before seeing the keyblade war. That was the whole point.

 

He wanted Ventus as his vessel which is why he wanted him to release his darkness by piting him against Heartless. That apparently couldn't happen. So instead MX made Vanitas from Ventus's Darkness.

 

Fastforward to the MoM exam. Why hasn't MX used Vanitas as his vessel? I mean, did he change his mind or something? Where did the sudden fascination about the X-Blade come from? Why did he need Vanitas to do it? Even if he wanted to prepare Roxas for that, why use him? He was already filled with Darkness himself, why not just go attack Eraqus who seems be filled with Light?  By then he set his eyes on using TERRA as his choice for a vessel and the purpose of splitting Ven and Vanitas was to get the 1 PURE LIGHT and 1 PURE DARKNESS so he could forge the blade. Eraqus wasn't pure light so he didn't qualify. Roxas would eventually be a possible choice for the same reason all the original org was- empty husks to fill with Xehanorts hearts thus making them vessels

 

Thing is, the whole X-Blade was just a side thing. His first and most important objective was finding a vessel. He was just curious about the process of the X-Blade. After all, Eraqus did say that MX wanted to risk an apocalypse out of sheer curiosity The whole reason he wanted  a new vessel was to live long enough to see a keyblade war and with the keyblade war comes the Xblade. That way he could then create the universe the way he saw fit 'for science". It wasn't really a side then . The X blade was just a major component in the whole plan.

 

Furthermore, no where in this thread does anyone provide a source about Xehanort and Eraqus knowing about the 7 vs. 13. Their master just told them about the story, we don't know how much he told them either. We only know that Xehanort was fascinated by it. 

"Maybe because it happened before that" isn't proof. This is all speculation.

 

The prophecy about the keyblade war hasn't changed ...the blade was broke into 20 pieces-  7 light and 13 darknesses. If they knew about the prophecy they knew about the 7 vs 13. Also this was inferred in the KH3 trailer with the scene with the chess pieces. Yen Sid knew about the 13 vs 7 as well.  In DDD MX SAYS he always knew it was 13 vs 7. Try again.

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But that's what I said, he wants a new vessel which is his main objective. The whole X-Blade was a side project until he got his new vessel. But since he already had Ven and Vanitas right there why not use them to see what happens? He was going to do it later after he got his new vessel anyway.

 

And again, how do you know how much of the prophecy their master told them? Yen Sid knows yes, he didn't know this since he was a toddler and neither did Eraqus and Xehanort. Pretty sure they learned the rest when they became masters themselves. 

 

And again it falls on it being a side project until he found a new vessel. He used Vanitas and Ven because he wanted to see what would happen, it's not like he was expecting amazing results or anything.

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  His main objective was NOT a new vessel..It was to see the keyblade war .That's the whole reason why he needed a new vessel bc he was old and feared not living long enough TO SEE THE KEYBLADE WAR. MAIN OBJECTIVE. KEYBLADE WAR. He split Ven because he couldn't use him for what he originally wanted. He should've known all along it wouldn't work. The entire point of BBS was MX was trying to forge the Xblade. Why? Keyblade War. His MAIN OBJECTIVE. He stated in DDD he always knew it was suppose to be 13 vs 7.He also stated he knew what was suppose to happen all the way up until the present time DDD.. This is most likely bc of the Tome of Prophecy. 

 

 

He cannot see the Keyblade War if he doesn't have a new vessel. Yes he might know it won't work. 

 

So what? Why is that stopping him from doing what he did with Ven and Vanitas anyway? In what way does that stop him from completing his plans?

 

 

 As for not learning that until they were masters - well YOU don't know that . They were discussing it as students so there's no reason to say that they had to wait until they were masters to discuss the prophecy and even how it came to be 13 dark and 7 light pieces.

Well you don't know that either. The only thing we know is that they didn't mention the 13 Darks and the 7 Lights. So basically it's like it never happened. Just basing it on speculation isn't enough evidence to say that the writing is lousy.

 

 

They were discussing the prophecy and the keyblade war. Again tell me how they WOULDN'T discuss this since this prophecy was stated to have been known by Yen Sid and MX and MX discussed it with Eraqus who MX straight up said he knew he knew about it! They all knew about it! It was implied that Eraqus found out from their master but Xehanort found out somewhere else bc he accuses Eraqus of already knowing and basically playing stupid.That whole scene pretty much implied they knew.

And yet again there is nothing about the 7 Light and 13 Darks. Nomura did say in that recent interview that the conversation is much longer. Yes they might very well talk about the 7 Lights and 13 Darks but until we actually hear/see it ourselves we don't know that.

 

My point is that you're accusing the series of bad writing when you yourself don't know the facts. I'm just doing this because we haven't seen the whole thing. When it is released and it actually shows them talking about that specific part then I'll 100% happily agree with you on the bad writing part.

 

 

His whole plan was to see this keyblade war .... a new vessel was just a means to the end considering he was old..The keyblade war was never a side project...it's his main goal the entire time. Read the reports in BBS.

I didn't say the Keyblade War was a side project. I said Ven/Vanitas was. This makes even more sense if he actually knew it would fail. He just wanted to see what would happen anyway.

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But that's what I said, he wants a new vessel which is his main objective. The whole X-Blade was a side project until he got his new vessel. But since he already had Ven and Vanitas right there why not use them to see what happens? He was going to do it later after he got his new vessel anyway.

 

And again, how do you know how much of the prophecy their master told them? Yen Sid knows yes, he didn't know this since he was a toddler and neither did Eraqus and Xehanort. Pretty sure they learned the rest when they became masters themselves. 

 

And again it falls on it being a side project until he found a new vessel. He used Vanitas and Ven because he wanted to see what would happen, it's not like he was expecting amazing results or anything.

 

Dude his main objective was always the keyblade war. BBS was all about him achieving this through the X-blade and living long enough to achieve it through a new vessel. Making the vessel a side project if anything.

 

 

As for them knowing, it was directly implied that they both found out through different means considering Eraqus lied about knowing in the first place. Xehanort wasn't suppose to know at all since he seems to have found out through his own means then accuses Eraqus of having knowledge of the prophecy and such in that scene

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Dude his main objective was always the keyblade war. BBS was all about him achieving this through the X-blade and living long enough to achieve it through a new vessel. Making the vessel a side project if anything.

 

 

As for them knowing, it was directly implied that they both found out through different means considering Eraqus lied about knowing in the first place. Xehanort wasn't suppose to know at all since he seems to have found out through his own means then accuses Eraqus of having knowledge of the prophecy and such in that scene

It seems more like Eraqus just didn't want to talk about it because he knew how much Xehanort was interested in the Darkness. Eraqus says that the master loves telling that story. Why would he just flat out say that if Xehanort wasn't supposed to know?

 

Edit: And yes, I realize I said just the X-Blade wasn't his main objective. I mean the X-Blade being obtainable by Ven/Vanitas wasn't his main objective.

Edited by Sorarocks93

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He cannot see the Keyblade War if he doesn't have a new vessel. Yes he might know it won't work. 

 

So what? Why is that stopping him from doing what he did with Ven and Vanitas anyway? In what way does that stop him from completing his plans?

 

Why do it if you know it won't work? Completely pointless. Read the reports. He thinks this is the one and only way and it will work.READ THE REPORTS.

 

Well you don't know that either. The only thing we know is that they didn't mention the 13 Darks and the 7 Lights. So basically it's like it never happened. Just basing it on speculation isn't enough evidence to say that the writing is lousy.

 

Once again he STATES HIMSELF IN DDD that he ALWAYS knew it was 13 vs 7 but did it anyways bc he was 'hasty." Yen Sid also stated he knew . Xehanort accuses Eraqus of already knowing in that scene in the trailer. Retconing so much MAJOR info in games to me is bad writing and that's my opinion and I have a right to feel that way. I usually don't mind some retcons as long as the story is good but some of this is getting ridiculous. ONCE AGAIN HE STATES HE KNEW IN BBS THAT IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE 13 VS 7 IN DDD. That obviously wasn't true. READ THE REPORTS. HE STATES IN the REPORTS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE WAY. KEY WORDS 'it is only forged"

 

 

And yet again there is nothing about the 7 Light and 13 Darks. Nomura did say in that recent interview that the conversation is much longer. Yes they might very well talk about the 7 Lights and 13 Darks but until we actually hear/see it ourselves we don't know that.

 

My point is that you're accusing the series of bad writing when you yourself don't know the facts. I'm just doing this because we haven't seen the whole thing. When it is released and it actually shows them talking about that specific part then I'll 100% happily agree with you on the bad writing part.

 

 

I didn't say the Keyblade War was a side project. I said Ven/Vanitas was. This makes even more sense if he actually knew it would fail. He just wanted to see what would happen anyway.

 

You said his main objective was getting a vessel and everything else was a side project. He didn't say he wanted to see what would happen.He 'knew' what he was trying to do:

 

Xehanort's Report VII

I have uncovered the Keyblade's ultimate mystery. You see, besides the three families of Keyblades, there is another "Key Blade." While it may sound the same when spoken, it is notated uniquely: "χ-blade." And make no mistake, while it resembles a normal Keyblade, it is something altogether different.

Keyblades are said to be man-made counterparts to Kingdom Hearts. The χ-blade, however, coexists with Kingdom Hearts.

It is only forged when two hearts of equal power intersect--one heart of pure darkness, one heart of pure light. At the time of its forging, Kingdom Hearts appears. It must be noted, though, that this Kingdom Hearts is special. Unlike the Kingdoms brought about forcibly and artificially through the collection of hearts, THIS Kingdom Hearts is a perfect and complete union of ALL the worlds' hearts. Surely it was over this that the ancient Keyblade War was fought.

If so, the walls that divide the worlds today are of little consequence. With the χ-blade, all their hearts could be instantly reunited--and the Keyblade War, refought.

 

 

I am a huge fan of KH but I can see where there are flaws. If you don't think all these retcons are a bad thing that's on you. I never said KH3 itself was bad writing ( i'm referring to material already out) since it's not out yet but I think major retcons that contradict major plot details indicate there is a big problem with continuity so far. I know my facts.That's the problem :)

 

Sounds to me that you seem to have a problem with me daring to criticize this game.

 

Edited by Flaming Lea

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It seems more like Eraqus just didn't want to talk about it because he knew how much Xehanort was interested the Darkness. Eraqus says that the master loves telling that story. Why would he just flat out say that if Xehanort wasn't supposed to know?

 

Edit: And yes, I realize I said just the X-Blade wasn't his main objective. I mean the X-Blade being obtainable by Ven/Vanitas wasn't his main objective.

 

I call bull because both the Japanese teaser we got a couple months ago and this current trailer show Xehanort accusing  Eraqus of  lying about how much he knew. He started out discussing the Keyblade War and the obvious details that both of them knew from their Master's story. Once Xehanort brought up the "Lost Masters" Eraqus played stupid and Xehanort called his bluff. He specifically told Eraqus  to drop the facade which directly implies that not only was Eraqus lying about what he knew but that Xehanort was not even supposed to have that information. Even later in their adulthood Eraqus told Xehanort that there was a reason why he was barred from having that knowledge.

 

Also you did call acquiring a vessel his main objection and that obtaining the X-blade was side project. When in fact it was the other way around.

But that's what I said, he wants a new vessel which is his main objective. The whole X-Blade was a side project until he got his new vessel. But since he already had Ven and Vanitas right there why not use them to see what happens? He was going to do it later after he got his new vessel anyway.

 

And again, how do you know how much of the prophecy their master told them? Yen Sid knows yes, he didn't know this since he was a toddler and neither did Eraqus and Xehanort. Pretty sure they learned the rest when they became masters themselves. 

 

And again it falls on it being a side project until he found a new vessel. He used Vanitas and Ven because he wanted to see what would happen, it's not like he was expecting amazing results or anything.

 
Edited by Chucky the Wise

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In that case, DDD has retconned the entire franchise. From the 7 princesses all the way to Ogranization XIII itself.

 

It did.That's my complaint. Honestly retconning isn't the end of the world but he needs to reign it in a little bit. Too much can screw up the story.

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He claimed to have known all the events up until DDD as he stated in DDD. Him trying to take over Ven but then changing to Terra  just proves that everything said in DDD made BBS a giant retcon bc he should've already known that would fail according to his own words.  That was Nomura's lousy excuse for this retcon which is my whole point You are missing my point . I said Nomura intended to have BBS be the true way but DDD retconed this thus changing the reason why it was incomplete. This just proves my point.

It doesn't matter if xehanort knew the events up to DDD, those events still had to happen due to fate being unchanged, his past self has those events ingrained in him leading him to the very scenario we have now and no where in the trailer did they give any specifics on the number of each side. And yen Sid said it himself, xehanort leaves many roads open. All of his machinations in BBS contributed toward his end game; getting maleficent to gather the princesses for him, having a new body from Terra, even testing out a potential darkness in both Braig and vanitas. BBS is far from just no relevance to the overall 13 vs 7. And I've said it before, but xehanort has had so many plans set in motion to the point where if the fusion of one pure light and one pure darkness would have worked then great it works, but if not then it will Atleast contribute toward his true end game. And eraqus wasn't willing to risk even the slimest chance of the one pure darkness and one pure light plan succeeding so his course of action, though brash and not well thought out, is stil valid.

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It doesn't matter if xehanort knew the events up to DDD, those events still had to happen due to fate being unchanged, his past self has those events ingrained in him leading him to the very scenario we have now and no where in the trailer did they give any specifics on the number of each side.And yen Sid said it himself, xehanort leaves many roads open. All of his machinations in BBS contributed toward his end game; getting maleficent to gather the princesses for him, having a new body from Terra, even testing out a potential darkness in both Braig and vanitas. BBS is far from just no relevance to the overall 13 vs 7. And I've said it before, but xehanort has had so many plans set in motion to the point where if the fusion of one pure light and one pure darkness would have worked then great it works, but if not then it will Atleast contribute toward his true end game. And eraqus wasn't willing to risk even the slimest chance of the one pure darkness and one pure light plan succeeding so his course of action, though brash and not well thought out, is stil valid.

 

 

Read my other posts bc everything you said has already been addressed in here. I'm not repeating myself. 

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No excuse for such blatant stupidity. He knew the one and only correct way. It was just Nomura's way of explaining his huge retcon. Poorly done at that.

it's veyr much in line with Xehanort's character though. His ego has him assume the whole prophecy is about him. The thirteen darknesses are all him, even though nothing says they have to be, and he's manipulating who the seven lights are, too. Xehanort views himself as above the rules, and is trying to game the system

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it's veyr much in line with Xehanort's character though. His ego has him assume the whole prophecy is about him. The thirteen darknesses are all him, even though nothing says they have to be, and he's manipulating who the seven lights are, too. Xehanort views himself as above the rules, and is trying to game the system

 

Nomura's always trying to make MX this great mastermind but really his track record doesn't back this up at all. For someone who says this all is fate he manufactures all the circumstances so it's not really fate is it? 

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It doesn't matter if xehanort knew the events up to DDD, those events still had to happen due to fate being unchanged, his past self has those events ingrained in him leading him to the very scenario we have now and no where in the trailer did they give any specifics on the number of each side.And yen Sid said it himself, xehanort leaves many roads open. All of his machinations in BBS contributed toward his end game; getting maleficent to gather the princesses for him, having a new body from Terra, even testing out a potential darkness in both Braig and vanitas. BBS is far from just no relevance to the overall 13 vs 7. And I've said it before, but xehanort has had so many plans set in motion to the point where if the fusion of one pure light and one pure darkness would have worked then great it works, but if not then it will Atleast contribute toward his true end game. And eraqus wasn't willing to risk even the slimest chance of the one pure darkness and one pure light plan succeeding so his course of action, though brash and not well thought out, is stil valid.

If you read the thread you would understand that the point is that Master Xehanort's supposed end game did not exist until Dream Drop Distance retconned the plots of the other games to fit them into Dream Drop Distance's plot. Grant you there are bits and pieces that most certainly fit comfortably but in order for the whole plot to work he had to retcon a lot of the old plot in order to fit it in.  Master Xehanort's 1v1 is straight up retconned in DDD he even says in his own reports that it was the only method to forge the X-blade. Then he says later  that he knew all along that the formula was 7 v 13 that is not being hasty that's a huge oversight. That's not even human error that's just stupidity especially because he knew everything that would happen he could easily adjusted his plan especially since in the base timeline he can do what he wants without being bound to the laws of time like his younger self was.

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Nomura's always trying to make MX this great mastermind but really his track record doesn't back this up at all. For someone who says this all is fate he manufactures all the circumstances so it's not really fate is it? 

and that's a good thing

xehanort's still a mary sue in terms of villainy, but at least he's not COMPLETELY perfect

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Well that's a given since he fails so much and requires so many back up plans :P

which is a FASCINATING version of the genius villain archetype

like I said earlier, something I love about KH is that people can just plain be wrong

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Good lord, I just read through this whole thread, and boy, was it an entertaining read!  I love Kingdom Hearts, and while I tend to ignore the retcons, this one is a big one. X3  The reports should have read: "One way of forging the X-blade is with a heart of pure darkness and a heart of pure light...and another one is gathering thirteen darknesses and seven lights.  As someone who is curious about the balance of light and darkness, and about the ancient Keyblade War, I must attempt to forge the X-Blade.  But, searching for such numbers may take a strenuous amount of time, so I have decided, I shall attempt to clash a heart of pure darkness and a heart of pure light.  If this is to succeed, then my desire of witnessing the Keyblade War shall come to fruition."  That way, things wouldn't be so retconned.

 

Also, on the subject of retcons, one I find funny is the one where Donald is going all ga ga when he sees Yen Sid lives in the Mysterious Tower in KHII, but in BBS, Donald, along with Goofy, are already in the Mysterious Tower.  That was a screwy retcon too. X3

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Dude, seriously, what point are you trying to make? I'm completely failing to see how Xehanort, as presented throughout the series, is intended to be anything other than completely evil by this point.

Ffs, where did I ever say they were intentionally trying to portray Xehanort as a good person? I'm saying that a well-supported thesis is that Xehanort is morally ambiguous, not evil.

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Ffs, where did I ever say they were intentionally trying to portray Xehanort as a good person? I'm saying that a well-supported thesis is that Xehanort is morally ambiguous, not evil.

 

Axel (KH2-onward), Eraqus and DiZ are examples of morally ambiguous characters. Xehanort, as presented throughout the series, is not (he may have been when he was younger, but any trace of that is gone by BBS). I've made this point repeatedly. I don't know what else you expect me to say.

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In a way, Kingdom Hearts is like Spoken Word poetry. You don't really plan it, you just speak, and hope that it all flows somehow. It works for the most part, but then there's inconsistencies like the ones you described, and even contradictions in the Reports. For example, in the Ansem Reports, we learn that actually, Ansem the Wise only wrote entry 1, and his assistant Xehanort wrote 2-13. But that creates a problem because the reports speak of experiences that only Ansem W. could have had. It's a minor fact, but it's stuff like this that makes things confusing. :P

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In a way, Kingdom Hearts is like Spoken Word poetry. You don't really plan it, you just speak, and hope that it all flows somehow. It works for the most part, but then there's inconsistencies like the ones you described, and even contradictions in the Reports. For example, in the Ansem Reports, we learn that actually, Ansem the Wise only wrote entry 1, and his assistant Xehanort wrote 2-13. But that creates a problem because the reports speak of experiences that only Ansem W. could have had. It's a minor fact, but it's stuff like this that makes things confusing. :P

 

What's funny is everyone not getting that the prophecy entailed the fact that the X-blade was split into 20 pieces so if Eraqus and Xehanort were talking about the prophecy and keyblade war in that scene it also inferred they would know about the 13 and 7. Not to mention the symbolism behind the chess pieces. Then in other games like DDD it's revealed as well they knew all along it was 13 and 7. It's like people can't handle criticism lol

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