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A Hollow Remembrance: The Legacy of Final Fantasy In Kingdom Hearts

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If you had to describe Kingdom Hearts in just a few words, what would those words be? 
“A JRPG with action gameplay” This is not wrong, but quite vague.
“It’s a Square Enix game” while true, that’s really only the half of it.
“It’s a Disney game!” eeehhhhhh, that doesn’t quite cut it.


To this day, Kingdom Hearts as a whole is still described by the short sentence that was used to market it way back in 2002.


“Kingdom Hearts is a Final Fantasy x Disney crossover”


Upon hearing this you can immediately envision what the series probably looks like; spiky haired dudes running around with Mickey Mouse in amazing worlds as the backdrops to an unraveling, mysterious journey, probably combined with some light-hearted Disney magicTM. 
And you wouldn’t be wrong! With a magic system lifted straight out of the Final Fantasy games, nostalgic Disney characters taking the place of huge, hulking beasts as summons, and a fast-paced combat system to match, Kingdom Hearts is a perfect mixture of all things FF and Disney.

 

Well, it was…


Starting with 358/2 Days, a game beloved by many and hated by just under that, the Final Fantasy inclusion in KH games has been…… lacking, to say the least. Many fans understood that the sacrifice for Kingdom Hearts being on a handheld, and one as *relatively* powerless as the DS, would be apparent. Yet out of the whole series, it’s Days, the game released just after KH2, that has the lowest amount of Final Fantasy inclusion present, featuring one, lowly, Moogle. 


Of course, if ever there was a KH game that I could understand this lack of inclusion, it would be Days. A game that chartered the course for KH to become the insular mess it is now. It would create loopholes within loopholes if Roxas did interact with any FF characters in his game, as they would certainly recall that even if Sora’s memory was lost to them. So, its understandable, and not even regrettable in this instance.

 

So that was 2009, the first time we had seen a new KH game since KH2 released three years ago. Even though Days started the downplayed FF trend, it by no means codified it. That honour goes to:


Birth by Sleep


The definition of broken base. This game kickstarted what I can see as two different sides of the community, the ones that defend this game, and subsequently all of the franchise, to the hilt, and the flipside, the side that found this game lacking, in gameplay mostly, but retroactively in plot. 


To use an example, here’s a quote from @Dio Brando (altered slightly for posterity’s sake) that highlights this split perfectly, and is from January 2017, when the split was becoming markedly more pronounced, and rapidly so:

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] That and I wanna add a Number 5 which is what I call the "Y U HATER YOU CRITICIZE AND NITPICK SO MUCH NOTHING PLEASE YOU"

For whatever reason the KH community perceive any sort of criticism,no matter how civil it is or the fact that it's coming from a legit fan,they will latch and hurl personal insults towards people just because they said they don't like one thing or two about a game or didn't like something like Birth by Sleep

I tried to have my complaints and reasons as civil as possible without insulting people yet I get dozens of messages and comments telling me that I'm a hater and I should leave this site,or that I'm a crybaby unappreciative manchild that loves to get angry all the time

If I hated the series,why then did I buy a 90$ playart kai figure of Sora last year,why did I plan to purchase 1.5+2.5 when it comes out once I knew the load times would be fixed?Or better yet why am I following KH3 news if I hate the series so much as people claim?

I may fell out of it but it doesn't mean I hate it,I just don't agree with some of the directions taken with it that's all.I've been with the series for over a decade now and I'm willing to see the first saga all the way to the end.

But hey guess I'm not qualified enough according to some people cuz I don't like Birth by Sleep
 


The most contentious point of BBS is it’s Command Deck, a format that was then used in the next two games, Re:coded and 3D. It might be hard to believe now, but for quite a while there was still a very vocal group of fans that wanted to see Command Deck be used in KH3. I’m glad we’re past that stage now. So glad. 


If ever there was a KH game that desperately needed to be made for a console, it is Birth by Sleep. A Kingdom Hearts 0 in all but name, having BBS on PS3 over PSP may have eliminated a lot of factors that people find unpalatable about it.


For one, the only reason command deck was created as a system was to fit in with the limitations of the PSP. D-Links, as useful as they are broken and unbalanced, were used in place of summons, due to the limitations. And finally, Final Fantasy characters. We were supposed to see younger versions of Cloud, Leon, as well as Laguna in BBS.  Supposed to. 


Due to limitations, however, all we got was Zack Fair. I say this like it’s a bad thing, but Zack was a joyous inclusion in BBS, and thinking of what could have been had this been a home console game, makes me rather annoyed. 
 

For one, whether people accept it or not, Birth by Sleep was *the* turning point for the franchise. Introducing the Big Bad of the series, and tying together the villains of the previous games, it created a narrative moving forward that future games had to adhere to. Where Days was insular and self-contained, BBS went to lengths to ensure that all games could now be tied into the sticky, tangly web that is Kingdom Hearts.


If there was a lack of Final Fantasy in a game as important to the series as this, what hope would there be for future instalments? A whole lot apparently. Because of the information of the cut Final Fantasy, and the fact that there was still a tangible connection through Zack, fans on the whole, whilst understandably disappointed, still weren’t mad. 
 

There was just an expectation, that Kingdom Hearts 3, the ultimate unifier, would bring them back in all their glory. Take a look at this thread made around the time BBS released -->

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Even as late as last year people still expected Final Fantasy in KH3. And that wasn’t an unpopular opinion at any rate. Take a look at @Isaix summing up this part of the FF in KH retrospective, from April 2016: 

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All the KH games that came out after KH2 were handheld and mobile games and those games aren't as big and ambitious as the two console games so it never surprise me,but I'm sure KH3 will more then make up for it by including tones of FF characters and cutscenes and hopefully enemies and summons as well 

I can’t really get much more succinct than that. Re:coded, by virtue of being essentially a remake of KH1 and COM for the DS had FF representation, and 3D had the TWEWY cast take their place, which many people adored. That was back in 2012, however.

What changed?


Well between the release of 3D and KH2.8, not much. People were still optimistic, and just expected the FF representation that we had been deprived of for so long to be present in KH3. Just take a look at these posts spanning the ages:

From Trece, in a Poll of the Day in February 2015:

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I wouldn't like things to change now that the story is set up, so I would prefare to call it a hope for KHIII, which is for more Final Fantasy characters to appear. I would also like to see world's from Final Fantasy, and having some of their bosses to fight against, in stead of stupid Disney villans (not all of them are stupid, I liked Barbossa, for example). I would also add Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribean and I would really like to have a team up of Sora, Riku and Kairi.

From @The Transcendent Keyin September 2015:

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I'm pretty sure we'll see quite a few Final Fantasy characters in Kingdom Hearts III, both new and old!  Kingdom Hearts II alone had quite the healthy dose of FF characters appearing here and there, so I'm pretty sure KHIII will follow suit! ^_^

From The 13th Kenpachi, in the same thread:

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SEYMOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I agree 1110000% on this. The majority of the fanbase don't want FF worlds because it wouldn't really work would it? Since the FF characters are not the same versions of themselves as they are in the original games. Unless they use FF worlds of characters we've never seen before, for example we've never seen FF1 or FF12 characters in any games so that would make sense for a world. If Spira had a world it wouldn't make sense since Tidus' home is Destiny Island. I WANT TO SEE GROWN UP TIDUS AND WAKKA Sin as a boss fight, Seymour too. FF summons have never been used, bahamut was meant to be one in KH1 but there wasn't enough processing power. I WOULD LOVE him for KH3, as well as other popular summons. Cloud should be a summon too.  Tbh Disney has engulfed KH so much recently there's near to no FF. Which I absolutely hate. I want way more Final Fantasy in KH3, the franchise seems to be 90% disney and 10% Final Fantasy... It should be 30% at least. I want FF summons, bosses, characters, keyblades and party members like they do with Disney. It doesn't even have to be FF, Chrono Trigger and TWEWY are welcome!!

And Felixx, carrying on from that post:

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I second this. Sin and Seymour as boss fights would be EPIC!!. That would be so awesome. I really liked Seymour in FFX, such an interesting villain.I want FF characters in the Disney worlds and FF summons, especially Bahamut and maybe Shiva (would be perfect to get her in the Frozen world), Kingdom Hearts needs more FF. But what I really want: FF characters teaming up with Disney characters in the final battle, that's my biggest wish for the final fight. Please, please make this happen Nomura. (As for Tidus and Wakka: such a shame that they became kids in Kingdom Hearts, they had so much potential)  

KaySay, from another thread around the same time (edited):

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•  leon and the gang, i'm pretty positive these guys will return but it would be great to see them since they started sora off in his journey and they could help him finish it 


•  gilgamesh, this guy would be perfect for an optional boss battle in my opinion. his goofy personality would be hilarious to watch as he comments how strange the environment is around him and it would be shocking if he suddenly pulled out keyblades before you battled him 
•  zidane, i didn't think about him appearing until i saw that the tangled world was confirmed and i thought "hey you know zidane would be perfect for this" and i've started wanting him to appear plus i would like to see conversations between him eugene since they're both fellow thieves 
•  cloud and sephiroth, since nomura is making this game i am half expecting cloud and sephiroth to make a cameo of some sort. i'm not sure how they would appear but i'm pretty sure nomura will find some way to put them in it

 

Mag77, in April 2016:

 

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Okay, I get it. And I agree; we definitely need more FF characters (I'd like characters from other SE games, but I'm not holding my breath on that). I mean, there are so few npcs in KH anyway, so there might as well be FF characters filling that void. Although, I do like Hewey, Dewey, Louie, and Uncle Scrooge. But we definitely don't need anymore Disney characters in non-Disney worlds (except for Max and Pete's family, just because it'd be hilarious to see Sora's reaction to them)I really would like to see another secret FF boss besides Sephiroth. Kefka and Gilgamesh are my two choices, but anyone would do. As for summons, like I said, we definitely need at least one. It shouldn't be that hard SE; you have a huge choice of summons from the FF games. I meant to say this before, but I totally agree with you about excluding Bahamut from KH2, but having stupid Chicken Little instead (its ten times worse too since the movie he's from is so awful and despised, by me included)

And finally, me, in June 2016:

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Bro... I have nothing to say in this thread anymore XD  


 
I have always had a strong feeling that Vaan will somehow be in KH3, because Nomura has said before that Vaan is his favourite character, and he did a design for him in dissidia, so it wouldn't be coming out of nowhere to include him. And now that Treasure Planet has a good chance of appearing in KH3, including Vaan makes even more sense!
 
Of course, this is all speculation
 

 

lol
 

If I trawled through the KH13 archives I could find countless more examples from a multitude of threads, these are just some of the ones that I felt were more varied and accurately represented the time between 3D and E3 2016. 


The point here is, KH3 was seen as the end of the Xehanort Saga, and that meant tying up all the loose plot threads with it, including the FF sub-plots. Fans who accepted and understood the understated presence of FF were expecting it in KH3 because not only had we not been told otherwise, but we had been encouraged to believe that they would definitely appear.
 

Take a look at this interview excerpt from E3 2013:

-- Will we see any new FF characters? Will we get a chance to play as King Mickey?

Nomura: The appearance of FF characters is pending. For a while, the previous titles didn’t have any FF characters, and I think it’s time to include some. I know everyone wants to play as King Mickey, so I will take that into consideration. Of course Sora will be the main character to play; it would be nice if other characters are playable as well.

 

And take a look at this from E3 2018:

When asked about Final Fantasy character appeaing in Kingdom Hearts III trailers

Nomura: “I can’t really talk about any of the characters that have not been announced or shown yet, but just looking at Kingdom Hearts 1 compared to when that was released, there’s so many different titles with Final Fantasy characters or where all of these characters come together. I don’t feel that much of necessity of bringing these characters together like I did before. However, if you could look forward to information in the future, that would be great.”

Also, when we first released Kingdom Hearts, there weren't that many other titles that brought together the Final Fantasy characters. I actually think that Kingdom Hearts may have been the first to do that. But nowadays, there are an abundance of titles that do that, so I don't see the value of having that kind of feature in the game anymoreBut that doesn't mean that I'm saying that there won't be any Final Fantasy characters. Please look forward to future information."

For five years, and indeed longer, nothing was done to temper these expectations. So to people out there who state that it was always obvious that there would be no Final Fantasy in Kingdom Hearts 3, I hope you realise that that is misinformation of the highest order, and if ever there was a story reason to be upset over, it would be this one.

Edited by 2 quid is good

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whenever i describe kingdom hearts to someone that doesn't know about it i say "Imagine if cloud cheated on tifa with a disney princess"

so now who am i going to eat ice cream with base sora off for reference? oh yeah and that guy from 8 is here but has a reason to be emo at least un like cloud... 

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I've mentioned this before, but from a personal perspective, the Final Fantasy characters in the game are Kingdom Hearts characters. When I played KH1 I had never played or even seen a Final Fantasy game. I only knew vaguely that some of the characters like Leon and Cloud were originally from something else. In the first game they are actually important to the plot, despite what some people say. They act as mentors for Sora on the journey. Leon tests his skills, Yuffie explains the situation, Cid introduces the gummi ship. Some people have said you could replace these characters and achieve the same result: To which I think "You could replace Xehanort with a different villain. Same result"

Do people think Donald and Goofy are replaceable? No, they don't. Sure they're more important, but technically they could be "generic magic user" and "generic shield user" with spiky anime hair. But that would be taking away from a core aspect of KH - The Disney aspect. So does ignoring characters like Leon. (Sora met Leon and co before he met Donald & Goofy 🤔)

I guess the point I'm making is, I have an attachment to these characters despite the fact I have never played FF and had no prior knowledge of them. Therefore my attachment is not based on FF Nostalgia.

It seems like Square and Nomura have had their minds set of scrapping them for a while, despite people clearly wanting them. Obviously it's their game but I wonder how they came to this decision. 

 

Edited by Novayon

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Me, a legit Birth By Sleep fan that likes to stay as neutral and civil as possible and just wants the game series to succeed (I understand why people see the problems they do within more latest installments and wouldn't go as far to say that people who don't like them are not true fans. We're all fans of the series and It's unfair to treat any one person like they are otherwise and treat them like crap.)  "Well, sh**. What do I do now?"

Despite not playing many FF games myself, I whole-heartedly understand why people feel disappointed by the growing lack of FF characters to the point they almost seem non-existent since they are half of what made this crossover series a crossover series. It has been said that we'll never get an FF-based world, but I would have at least liked to see how Leon and the gang's little side plot ended in this game with them and how they feel about restoring their homeworld to It's original glory. Some NPC cameos from FF characters would've been fine, at the least, too. Heck, I'm pretty sure we got two npcs named Biggs and Wedge in KH 2. They could've made that a reoccurring theme in the latest games as well. (Of course, that's more of a Star Wars Easter egg that SE decided to make a reoccurring theme in the FF series more than anything.)

To be completely honest with you, depending on how it goes, I feel like KH 3 could end up spliting the fandom more in two than any of the pervious games and it actually hurts to think about that, especially since KH and It's charming main character himself was never about division but rather strength in unity. Seeing everyone throw insults at each other is heartbreaking to say the least.

Edited by ITzDarthLordRevan

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25 minutes ago, ITzDarthLordRevan said:

Me, a legit Birth By Sleep fan that likes to stay as neutral and civil as possible and just wants the game series to succeed (I understand why people see the problems they do within more latest installments and wouldn't go as far to say that people who don't like them are not true fans. We're all fans of the series and It's unfair to treat any one person like they are otherwise and treat them like crap.)  "Well, sh**. What do I do now?"

Despite not playing many FF games myself, I whole-heartedly understand why people feel disappointed by the growing lack of FF characters to the point they almost seem non-existent since they are half of what made this crossover series a crossover series. It has been said that we'll never get an FF-based world, but I would have at least liked to see how Leon and the gang's little side plot ended in this game with them and how they feel about restoring their homeworld to It's original glory. Some NPC cameos from FF characters would've been fine, at the least, too. Heck, I'm pretty sure we got two npcs named Biggs and Wedge in KH 2. They could've made that a reoccurring theme in the latest games as well. (Of course, that's more of a Star Wars Easter egg that SE decided to make a reoccurring theme in the FF series more than anything.)

To be completely honest with you, depending on how it goes, I feel like KH 3 could end up spliting the fandom more in two than any of the pervious games and it actually hurts to think about that, especially since KH and It's charming main character himself was never about division but rather strength in unity. Seeing everyone throw insults at each other is heartbreaking to say the least.

I know it feels like I ragged on BBS, but I do love the wayfinder trio. This post was honestly just a kind of history on how we got to where we are now, and unfortunately BBS did contribute to it but in a way that was out of its control.

I do genuinely believe that once KH3 comes out people will love it, purely because we're feeling the disappointment of what has and hasn't been included now.

1 hour ago, Novayon said:

I've mentioned this before, but from a personal perspective, the Final Fantasy characters in the game are Kingdom Hearts characters. When I played KH1 I had never played or even seen a Final Fantasy game. I only knew vaguely that some of the characters like Leon and Cloud were originally from something else. In the first game they are actually important to the plot, despite what some people say. They act as mentors for Sora on the journey. Leon tests his skills, Yuffie explains the situation, Cid introduces the gummi ship. Some people have said you could replace these characters and achieve the same result: To which I think "You could replace Xehanort with a different villain. Same result"

Do people think Donald and Goofy are replaceable? No, they don't. Sure they're more important, but technically they could be "generic magic user" and "generic shield user" with spiky anime hair. But that would be taking away from a core aspect of KH - The Disney aspect. So does ignoring characters like Leon. (Sora met Leon and co before he met Donald & Goofy 🤔)

I guess the point I'm making is, I have an attachment to these characters despite the fact I have never played FF and had no prior knowledge of them. Therefore my attachment is not based on FF Nostalgia.

It seems like Square and Nomura have had their minds set of scrapping them for a while, despite people clearly wanting them. Obviously it's their game but I wonder how they came to this decision. 

 

I relate to this post quite strongly, in fact, I knew of Final Fantasy in better detail than I knew of Kingdom Hearts at first, despite not playing a game at that age except for Revenant Wings.

I think this is the biggest sore point, that the FF inclusion in KH genuinely felt like OC Kingdom Hearts characters, and not including them when they still have stories to be told seems very dismissive at best, and cruel at worst.

and thank you all for reading my giant wall of text XD

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I'm pretty torn on this. On one hand it doesn't bother me that much personality. On the other hand I see where everyone is coming from and it wouldn't hurt to have these cameos in Disney worlds like in the past.

I can understand using less FF characters. I never thought they would have a big role in KHIII anyway. And with so many other FF based games where they teamup, that portion doesn't feel special anymore. The OG characters have basically taken over the reigns of Kingdom Hearts, as well they should. Nowadays when we get another 1000 Heartless battle, the iconic moments won't be Leon and Cloud side by side, but seeing characters like Aqua and Riku fighting side by side or Lea/Axel alongside Lingering Will/Terra fighting a swarm of Heartless. These are the new fantasies that fans are dreaming up now for KIngdom Hearts big battles now. Would any early Final Fantasy reveal top dark Aqua's Frozen trailer reveal? The Xion is norted debate that came up twice? Vanitas in the Land of Departure over Ventus and Aqua? Clues on how Roxas will be revived? The Seekers choices and why they are back? So yeah I can see why they are moving away from Final Fantasy characters and it doesn't bother me on a personal level all that much.

That being said, Novayon's post above is a perfect example of a fan who associates the KH versions of the FF characters with the series and that is important to and should not be ignored. At least in the case of Leon, Yuffie, Aerith, Cid, Cloud, and Sephiroth. They have their own stories too, and even though they have diminished over the long years, they are part of Sora's lives too. There is no excuse to bring back Disney worlds like Hercules, Pirates, and Pooh and give them conclusions and not at least show Leon's gang one last time and to see how Cloud's battle with Sephiroth went. Even though I'm bored with Sephiroth battles now, it still deserves a conclusion too. They might not be important to the Xehanort Finale, but they shouldn't be ignored. They should at least contact Sora and offer to help in anyway they can.

Final Fantasy characters would also make for fun secret bosses. Gilgamesh is one I wanted for years. Again I'm torn. If they aren't in the game it won't effect my view of it, because I'm not playing for them. But they should appear because they are connected to Sora too.

 

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8 minutes ago, 2 quid is good said:

I know it feels like I ragged on BBS, but I do love the wayfinder trio. This post was honestly just a kind of history on how we got to where we are now, and unfortunately BBS did contribute to it but in a way that was out of its control.

I do genuinely believe that once KH3 comes out people will love it, purely because we're feeling the disappointment of what has and hasn't been included now.

I relate to this post quite strongly, in fact, I knew of Final Fantasy in better detail than I knew of Kingdom Hearts at first, despite not playing a game at that age except for Revenant Wings.

I think this is the biggest sore point, that the FF inclusion in KH genuinely felt like OC Kingdom Hearts characters, and not including them when they still have stories to be told seems very dismissive at best, and cruel at worst.

and thank you all for reading my giant wall of text XD

Hey. It would've fine even if you didn't like it. I just feel like I'm in between a rock and a hard place everytime the fandom has a discussion like this since I've seen debates like this get pretty ugly and don't usually get involved. But, yeah. The PSP did give Birth By Sleep some limitations and it was really probably where Osaka team first got their start in the KH series. (Unless I'm wrong. Am I?)

I'm hoping that a lot of people enjoy it still as well and I hope this community at least does find some peace with each other in the end even though I probably won't be here often and will stay pretty quiet unless I want to express my opinions.

Anyways, thank you for writing this. Even if everyone may not agree with everything said, it was an interesting read nonetheless and I enjoyed it. You're pretty good at writing these kind of things.

 

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Aren't most of the FF characters that we've seen designed by Nomura?   Also,  would like to have seen what happened with Leon and the others.  Their tragic past with the Heartless takeover of Radiant Gardens would serve a purpose in vilifying Xehanort further.  I would love to see the FF fight against the true Organization XIII and maybe some flashbacks to the actual invasion.

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1 hour ago, ienzo628 said:

Aren't most of the FF characters that we've seen designed by Nomura?   Also,  would like to have seen what happened with Leon and the others.  Their tragic past with the Heartless takeover of Radiant Gardens would serve a purpose in vilifying Xehanort further.  I would love to see the FF fight against the true Organization XIII and maybe some flashbacks to the actual invasion.

Yeah, I think that in order to get non-Nomura FF characters, they have to talk to those creators in square(or whoever else to get permission), which seems to be a hassle, apparently. Even though talking to another division/person in your own company should not be that hard. In one of the most recent interviews they said that they got more support from Epic games with Unreal 4 than they got with the luminous engine team in their own company.  That's probably another reason why Nomura opted to use his own TWEWY characters in DDD.

As for Radiant Garden, I as well would have liked to see something about the fall. This also could of been a character development opportunity for Kairi, as in the Ansem reports, it's mentioned that sometime around the fall, she was basically thrown into the space-ocean by Apprentice Xehanort. This might still come up in 3, but I would have liked to see Kairi talking with the restoration committee. 

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2 minutes ago, Kittenz said:

Yeah, I think that in order to get non-Nomura FF characters, they have to talk to those creators in square(or whoever else to get permission), which seems to be a hassle, apparently. Even though talking to another division/person in your own company should not be that hard. In one of the most recent interviews they said that they got more support from Epic games with Unreal 4 than they got with the luminous engine team in their own company.  That's probably another reason why Nomura opted to use his own TWEWY characters in DDD.

As for Radiant Garden, I as well would have liked to see something about the fall. This also could of been a character development opportunity for Kairi, as in the Ansem reports, it's mentioned that sometime around the fall, she was basically thrown into the space-ocean by Apprentice Xehanort. This might still come up in 3, but I would have liked to see Kairi talking with the restoration committee. 

I mean, after so many years since KH2, we need some sort of closure for the Restoration Committee.  Kairi's backstory hopefully gets flushed out more just like the Heartless Invasion.  I would think that something so integral to the KH plot would have at least gotten some mention.  Maybe, we won't get the FF crew but a mention would at least do.  Cid was the one that introduced us to the Gummi Ships in KH1, right?

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Let's not forget that squall showing up in kingdom hearts kinda lines up with the end of his own game so, in my opinion, him not being there doesn't add up

 

22 hours ago, ITzDarthLordRevan said:

Me, a legit Birth By Sleep fan that likes to stay as neutral

funny thing for Darth lord Revan to say x D

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19 hours ago, ienzo628 said:

Also,  would like to have seen what happened with Leon and the others.  Their tragic past with the Heartless takeover of Radiant Gardens would serve a purpose in vilifying Xehanort further.  I would love to see the FF fight against the true Organization XIII and maybe some flashbacks to the actual invasion. 

That's a very interesting point and one I hadn't considered yet. There's so much more Nomura could do, so just lazily implying that their stories have ended is blatantly untrue.

16 hours ago, ienzo628 said:

I mean, after so many years since KH2, we need some sort of closure for the Restoration Committee.

 

8 hours ago, teh lazy prince Xylek said:

Let's not forget that squall showing up in kingdom hearts kinda lines up with the end of his own game so, in my opinion, him not being there doesn't add up 

You're both right, it really doesn't add up because there's still a lot left to be told. Even if we stick to the basic plot points we need to see:

Radiant Garden restored.                          

Rinoa and Leon somehow

Cloud and sephiroth, and tifas role in it

Zack (bby pls don't b did)

And whether Leon goes back to being called Squall.

This is all stuff that's been set up for us throughout the games and it seems odd to downplay these loose ends, and this is just the basic stuff!

It's gonna feel weird this time round...

 

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There's just too many gaps that need to be filled in.  We know that Maleficent caused the Heartless Invasion which left the Restoration Committee in Traverse Town.  The Heartless Invasion happened after Xehanort and the other apprentices' experiment went array.  Plus, we don't know how the experiment was carried out, it just turned out that Xehanort regained his memories and turned on Ansem the Wise and the other apprentices.  Maleficent was also acquainted with MX, he got her into kidnapping the POH.  Yet, at the same time she seemed to be kind of at odds with MX's Nobody and probably MX's Heartless.  MX's Heartless did end up stabbing her while possessing Riku in KH1.  In KH2, she wanted Sora to defeat the Organization because they were getting in the way of her controlling her Heartless.

So, everything ties together.  It would be nice to see Maleficent and MX being confronted by the Restoration Committee; seeing how the Organization caused the fall of Radiant Gardens indirectly and Maleficent seemed to weasel her way in and converted the now fallen Radiant Gardens into Hollow Bastion.

It's kind of amazing that after so long, we've never actually gotten a game focused on the Heartless Invasion or the rise of Hollow Bastion.  Maybe, that would be interesting to have a game focused on it since it hasn't been tackled yet.  I mean, we've had games that weren't focused on Sora as a main character before.  But I don't know how I would feel if Nomura created an OC to serve as the main character between the events of KH1 and the creation of Hollow Bastion and that character's disappearance from KH1 being excused as them dying between that nine year gap.  I rather have Squall or at least Cloud be the main character.

Cloud or Squall could be a main character of a KH game, except it would be a younger version of them and the game could explain why Zack and eventually Cloud wound up in Olympus Coliseum?  Though I don't know how the KH community would react to such a game being made.

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11 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

There's just too many gaps that need to be filled in.  We know that Maleficent caused the Heartless Invasion which left the Restoration Committee in Traverse Town.  The Heartless Invasion happened after Xehanort and the other apprentices' experiment went array.  Plus, we don't know how the experiment was carried out, it just turned out that Xehanort regained his memories and turned on Ansem the Wise and the other apprentices.  Maleficent was also acquainted with MX, he got her into kidnapping the POH.  Yet, at the same time she seemed to be kind of at odds with MX's Nobody and probably MX's Heartless.  MX's Heartless did end up stabbing her while possessing Riku in KH1.  In KH2, she wanted Sora to defeat the Organization because they were getting in the way of her controlling her Heartless.

So, everything ties together.  It would be nice to see Maleficent and MX being confronted by the Restoration Committee; seeing how the Organization caused the fall of Radiant Gardens indirectly and Maleficent seemed to weasel her way in and converted the now fallen Radiant Gardens into Hollow Bastion.

It's kind of amazing that after so long, we've never actually gotten a game focused on the Heartless Invasion or the rise of Hollow Bastion.  Maybe, that would be interesting to have a game focused on it since it hasn't been tackled yet.  I mean, we've had games that weren't focused on Sora as a main character before.  But I don't know how I would feel if Nomura created an OC to serve as the main character between the events of KH1 and the creation of Hollow Bastion and that character's disappearance from KH1 being excused as them dying between that nine year gap.  I rather have Squall or at least Cloud be the main character.

Cloud or Squall could be a main character of a KH game, except it would be a younger version of them and the game could explain why Zack and eventually Cloud wound up in Olympus Coliseum?  Though I don't know how the KH community would react to such a game being made.

Kingdom Hearts needs a Keyblade wielder to be a main hero, doesn't it? Every game has had the main character have a Keyblade. Be it a real one or a fake one. The Keyblade unlocks keyholes and slays Heartless to Kingdom Hearts. Squall or Cloud don't have Keyblades, one of the biggest themes of the series. Cloud is also a loner by KH1. That goes against the games message of friendship.

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1 minute ago, SweetYetSalty said:

Kingdom Hearts needs a Keyblade wielder to be a main hero, doesn't it? Every game has had the main character have a Keyblade. Be it a real one or a fake one. The Keyblade unlocks keyholes and slays Heartless to Kingdom Hearts. Squall or Cloud don't have Keyblades, one of the biggest themes of the series. Cloud is also a loner by KH1. That goes against the games message of friendship.

Probably.  Did we ever get any clarification what was up between Cloud and Sephiroth?  Why was Auron dead since he was resurrected by Hades?  Was Cloud in Olympus because Zack went there years ago? 

Maybe, if we do get a prequel for the Heartless Invasion we'll get an OC, but rather that OC is an anthropomorphic Disney-like character or a human FF character.

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2 minutes ago, ienzo628 said:

Probably.  Did we ever get any clarification what was up between Cloud and Sephiroth?  Why was Auron dead since he was resurrected by Hades?  Was Cloud in Olympus because Zack went there years ago? 

Maybe, if we do get a prequel for the Heartless Invasion we'll get an OC, but rather that OC is an anthropomorphic Disney-like character or a human FF character.

Cloud and Sephiroth's relationship is vague. He's the embodiment of Cloud's darkness. In Kingdom Heart's terms that could me anything lol. Auron however seems to have a similar fate to what happened to him in Final Fantasy X. When SDG hear a bit of his past through his doll it's implied something similar happened to him in KH the same way it did in FF. I'll be honest, that could be a story worth exploring. Especially if they tie in some of the Organization members in their real person forms. But it's unlikely.

A prequel on the Heartless Invasion sounds like it could have been a part of BBS but they didn't go that route.It would have been cool to see Squall/Leon in his Charlie Brown shirt KH style XD

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2 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

Cloud and Sephiroth's relationship is vague. He's the embodiment of Cloud's darkness. In Kingdom Heart's terms that could me anything lol. Auron however seems to have a similar fate to what happened to him in Final Fantasy X. When SDG hear a bit of his past through his doll it's implied something similar happened to him in KH the same way it did in FF. I'll be honest, that could be a story worth exploring. Especially if they tie in some of the Organization members in their real person forms. But it's unlikely.

A prequel on the Heartless Invasion sounds like it could have been a part of BBS but they didn't go that route.It would have been cool to see Squall/Leon in his Charlie Brown shirt KH style XD

Yeah, there's just so much wasted potential.  I don't know if Nomura would even be willing to re-visit the events of the Heartless Invasion since it would imply using Xehanort and Maleficent.

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1 minute ago, ienzo628 said:

Yeah, there's just so much wasted potential.  I don't know if Nomura would even be willing to re-visit the events of the Heartless Invasion since it would imply using Xehanort and Maleficent.

It might be told in a flashback at some point, maybe. But a game? Probably not. Xehanort is likely done for good after KH3 and they'll be moving on to the next big bad. Maleficent will most likely still be around, but I doubt she'll have much interest in Radiant Garden going forward.

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6 minutes ago, SweetYetSalty said:

It might be told in a flashback at some point, maybe. But a game? Probably not. Xehanort is likely done for good after KH3 and they'll be moving on to the next big bad. Maleficent will most likely still be around, but I doubt she'll have much interest in Radiant Garden going forward.

I just wonder if the FF crew will be in KH3 or if we'll get some flashback of the Heartless Invasion. 

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On 1/10/2019 at 2:00 PM, 2 quid is good said:

Take a look at this interview excerpt from E3 2013:

-- Will we see any new FF characters? Will we get a chance to play as King Mickey?

Nomura: The appearance of FF characters is pending. For a while, the previous titles didn’t have any FF characters, and I think it’s time to include some. I know everyone wants to play as King Mickey, so I will take that into consideration. Of course Sora will be the main character to play; it would be nice if other characters are playable as well.

So they went a playable Riku for KH3 GREAT I was so looking forward to play Riku again and again instead of King Mickey or Kairi I'm happy they made it a secret... But for real though damned Nomura I hope you have more planned than Sora and Riku in KH3 and btw thank you I was searching for this quoto:)

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1 hour ago, AwesomeKHfan said:

So they went a playable Riku for KH3 GREAT I was so looking forward to play Riku again and again instead of King Mickey or Kairi I'm happy they made it a secret... But for real though damned Nomura I hope you have more planned than Sora and Riku in KH3 and btw thank you I was searching for this quoto:)

Your welcome I guess 😅

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12 hours ago, SweetYetSalty said:

Cloud and Sephiroth's relationship is vague. He's the embodiment of Cloud's darkness. In Kingdom Heart's terms that could me anything lol. Auron however seems to have a similar fate to what happened to him in Final Fantasy X. When SDG hear a bit of his past through his doll it's implied something similar happened to him in KH the same way it did in FF. I'll be honest, that could be a story worth exploring. Especially if they tie in some of the Organization members in their real person forms. But it's unlikely.

A prequel on the Heartless Invasion sounds like it could have been a part of BBS but they didn't go that route.It would have been cool to see Squall/Leon in his Charlie Brown shirt KH style XD

Isn't it actual lines from FFX? The kind of stuff he says and his appearance being exactly the same also implies that somehow this is the Auron from FFX. Unlike every other FF character, he actually came from FFX's world.

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KH introduced me to Final Fantasy. One of my favorite things in KH is Leon. Since getting into KH, I've started playing about 4 different FF games.

KH wouldn't be the same without The Restoration Committee. 

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I feel just as many others do in this thread: terribly conflicted.

I supposed I should start by explaining why I like the FF characters in KH1 and KH2 so much. Just a warning, this may get long, so bear with me.

I was never a Final Fantasy guy. Not because I didn't want to, but because I never had the appropriate conditions to play those games. The only one I got to play was FF6. So I'm not a FF savy guy. Still, I absolutely loved their inclusion in KH1. They really felt like part of the game's world rather than feeling like shoehorned-in cameos. I love their interactions with Sora, they just felt like great characters to hang out with. They were the ones who understood Sora, who also had their world taken by the darkness, and who were also on a mission to make things right again. They were the "cozy" part of KH1, everytime we finished the crazy Disney worlds, they were back there in Traverse Town, ready to help you out. Other characters like Cloud in Olympus Coliseum also helped make the world feel grander and more connected, seeing as how they were from the same place but scattered to different worlds. Things like that made KH1 feel more like and adventure rather than a movie sightseeing tour.

In other words, the FF characters in KH1 felt like a sort of family to Sora, and, thus, to me as a player as well. I could relate to them, just as Sora could too.

In KH2, they are relegated a bit more to the Radiant Garden Reconstruction Committee b-plot, and didn't have much involvement with the main plot. But the essence of what made me like them was still there. Even after Sora's 1 year absence, they still treated him like they had just seen him yesterday. And even though they were minding their own business most of the time, the reconstruction sub-plot was very interesting so it was still very entertaining. I, as a player, wanted to help them out, because they truly felt like a family, united by bonds, caring for each other. The newcomers like Tifa and Auron also helped with that. 

I also really appreciated everyone that was in Twilight Town. Sure, they were mostly cameos destined to pleading fans, but they still were somehow involved in the story, and that's what made it work.

In other words, I guess what I am trying to say is that the Final Fantasy characters don't feel like just Final Fantasy characters. Their backstory, slightly different personalities, and involvement with the plot at different levels made them feel more like actual Kingdom Hearts characters to me. 

As for BBS, yes, Zack is awesome, but seeing as his dynamics with the TVA are very different from the other FF characters with Sora, he felt more like an actual cameo than all the others.

This takes us to Kingdom Hearts 3. And this is where things get complicated.

Look, I'm not gonna beat around the bush. The FF characters are not necessary to KH3. The plot could, and most likely will, work out just fine without them. 

But why do we only need things that are necessary? The Cloud subplot in KH1 wasn't necessary. His story with Tifa and Sephiroth weren't necessary. The inclusion of Seifer, Raijin, Fuujin, Setzer and Vivi in Twilight Town wasn't necessary. But it was still welcomed. They had their cool moments, they had some connection to Sora, and they all had their own little arcs that felt satisfying.

That's why I wanted FF characters in KH3, more specifically the ones in Radiant Garden. They have that connection to Sora, they feel like home, they are likeable and they have their arcs that I wanted to see completed in KH3, the end of the Xehanort saga. To not see them in KH3 makes me sad because it'll feel as if one piece of what made me fall in love with the series has vanished. Those characters that made KH1 and KH2 even more special will probably not show up. Hell, we'll be lucky if they even get a mention.

To see them just abandoned in KH3... it almost feels like downplaying the role they had in KH1 and KH2 - something you can see many fans doing already. Many are trying to justify the roles they played in KH1 and KH2 as to justify the fact that KH3 is almost removing them; something I think is really disingenuous. But oh well.

I suppose that's the biggest take away from the situation. FF characters are like socks. Sure, you don't need them. But some people like using socks, and they'll miss using socks if they can't use them, while others won't mind. Weird comparison, I know, but it fits, I think.

I'm the one who likes socks. Sure, I don't need socks. I can still walk, run and jump freely without them. But when I'm not using them, I feel a bit sad, uncomfortable and awkward.

I'll still greatly enjoy Kingdom Hearts without FF characters - or at least without the Restoration Committee. But I can't help but think that my whole playthrough will be affected by a constant feeling that something is missing.

KH3 will feel like home, but not the whole family will be there. And that makes a bit sad indeed.

End of rant, I guess lol.

Edited by The Great Fifth
Correction of typos and some better phrasing

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