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HarLea Quinn

Something That Bothers Me

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It didn't work the X-blade broke because it was never really complete.

 

Her point it's pretty stupid to invest all that effort into something that he always knew was not going to work.

But what if he didn't actually "know" it wouldn't work. What if it was mostly just suspicion and he was arrogant enough to assume it would work just because, according to the prophecy, his victory had already been foretold.

(The likely scenario is that this is just a massive plothole, but it's kinda fun trying to make sense of it)

 

 

But that was Ansem, who was not Master Xehanort. I thought half of the point was that it trying to show that Nobodies and Heartlesses can be different from the original self. I know sociopaths in real life, sometimes they do bad things and show little remorse, but in no way would I consider them evil people. He only needed Ventus for his plan, and only destroyed Terra and Aqua because they were obstructing him.

he's willing to ruin lives just to reach a goal. That alone seems pretty evil

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But that was Ansem, who was not Master Xehanort. I thought half of the point was that it trying to show that Nobodies and Heartlesses can be different from the original self. I know sociopaths in real life, sometimes they do bad things and show little remorse, but in no way would I consider them evil people. He only needed Ventus for his plan, and only destroyed Terra and Aqua because they were obstructing him.

 

Other characters (Axel and Roxas being the most notable examples, although the latter was never malevolent at any point) went through that story arc, but it's obvious Nomura never intended Xehanort to be a sympathetic character.

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he's willing to ruin lives just to reach a goal. That alone seems pretty evil

It happens in business all the time, for some to be successful, others have to fail. If anything, Eraqus displayed more bad qualities in BbS than MX did, as did Vanitas, he's hardly evil if you compare him to other villains in the game EG Maleficent, Evil Riku, Ansem

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He claimed to have known all the events up until DDD as he stated in DDD. Him trying to take over Ven but then changing to Terra  just proves that everything said in DDD made BBS a giant retcon bc he should've already known that would fail according to his own words.

 

 That was Nomura's lousy excuse for this retcon which is my whole point

 

You are missing my point . I said Nomura intended to have BBS be the true way but DDD retconed this thus changing the reason why it was incomplete. This just proves my point.

He "knew" about them

don't you know how time travel works? You can't take the memories with you, he just had a vague inkling in his heart

Though I kidna want to see what scene you're talking about because I don't remember anything as definitive as that

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You are missing my point . I said Nomura intended to have BBS be the true way but DDD retconed this thus changing the reason why it was incomplete. This just proves my point.

My pardon. I was attempting to argue the wrong point. From a meta stand point, I agree with you. A lot of things in DDD get under my skin. I hope KH3 will manage to wrap things up without stepping all over already determined facts (or at least give a solid reasoning why it does so).I do want to add that from a purely in story stand point, things may be a little weak, but I don't think they are broken.

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you can't exactly argue that the lights and darknesses thing wasn't planned though, they've been setting it up with Saix and Xigbar since KH2

Nomura leaves a lot of open ended concepts up in the air.It also could've been in case Terra didn't work out.He made sure to have a few back up bodies.

 

While it is the correct way, like I said, he lost patience and just did the incorrect way. And who said Eraqus even knew how to do it the correct way? Eraqus didn't wish to fail stopping Xehanort again. So he immediately tried to kill Ventus to prevent the creation of the X-Blade. While he didn't wish to kill him, he desired to stop Xehanort's plan.

 Eraqus knew the prophecy. Also he would know that it wouldn't work so there would be no reason to murder Ven to stop this from occurring.

 

No, I don't mean DDD xDIn the secret ending of Birth by Sleep (may have been Final Mix only) Xehanort was talking to Terra. He mentions how he had another plan, and that, so far, it was running smoothly. I personally think the 13 v 7 has been planned at LEAST since Birth by Sleep. Remember how many vessels he had at that point? Master Xehanort, Xehanort (SoD), and Terra. Already three Vessels (even if they weren't in use at the time.) Also remember the YX battle in Final Mix. I'd have to say this has been planned for a while.

He made sure to have back ups in case Terra didn't work out as a vessel bc he feared dying before seeing the keyblade war.So if Terra didn't work he had other options.He even said that in the FM- he was only one of many roads he could take. YMX as the final boss doesn't prove anything. He was a secret boss.Nomura has also admitted to writing this as he goes :

 

 

Speaking of the previous titles, about when do you start thinking of the ‘next title’?

 

Nomura: It’s a gradual process. When Kingdom Hearts was in production, I was considering ideas for Kingdom Hearts II and Chain of Memories. And when those two were in production, I was thinking of ideas for the next three, 358/2 Days, Coded, and Birth by Sleep.

— Were you thinking of KH3D when those 3 titles were in production?

Nomura: KH3D was put together relatively quickly, I was still concepting the story when I brought it to the table.

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Nomura leaves a lot of open ended concepts up in the air.It also could've been in case Terra didn't work out.He made sure to have a few back up bodies.

 

 Eraqus knew the prophecy. Also he would know that it wouldn't work so there would be no reason to murder Ven to stop this from occurring.

 

He made sure to have back ups in case Terra didn't work out as a vessel bc he feared dying before seeing the keyblade war.So if Terra didn't work he had other options.He even said that in the FM- he was only one of many roads he could take. YMX as the final boss doesn't prove anything. He was a secret boss.Nomura has also admitted to writing this as he goes :

 

 

Speaking of the previous titles, about when do you start thinking of the ‘next title’?

 

Nomura: It’s a gradual process. When Kingdom Hearts was in production, I was considering ideas for Kingdom Hearts II and Chain of Memories. And when those two were in production, I was thinking of ideas for the next three, 358/2 Days, Coded, and Birth by Sleep.

— Were you thinking of KH3D when those 3 titles were in production?

Nomura: KH3D was put together relatively quickly, I was still concepting the story when I brought it to the table.

Doesn't change the fact that BBS still happened and it wasn't rendered pointless by DDD. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

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It happens in business all the time, for some to be successful, others have to fail. If anything, Eraqus displayed more bad qualities in BbS than MX did, as did Vanitas, he's hardly evil if you compare him to other villains in the game EG Maleficent, Evil Riku, Ansem

 

Xehanort actively (and that's the key word) went out of the way to corrupt Terra for his own purposes, and was perfectly willing (with no sign of regret) to kill Ventus and Aqua should they interfere. Eraqus was extremely misguided and clearly in the wrong, but even he showed clear regret over what he considered to be a "necessary evil".

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 Eraqus knew the prophecy. Also he would know that it wouldn't work so there would be no reason to murder Ven to stop this from occurring.

But, he heard that Xehanort found a way to create the X-Blade a different way. Maybe Eraqus was not sure if this way was the correct way. Maybe he believed that Xehanort just found another method of doing so and he decided to kill Ventus to prevent it. What if he thought that Ventus was one of seven that Xehanort had already prepared in BBS and also prepared 13 darknesses? It was in the moment and decided to do what he thought was right at that moment when Ventus returned.

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He "knew" about them

don't you know how time travel works? You can't take the memories with you, he just had a vague inkling in his heart

Though I kidna want to see what scene you're talking about because I don't remember anything as definitive as that

Of course I know are you serious? Have many times have I explained this to others. Elder MX ( the most future version of himself) knew everything that was gonna happen up until DDD. He stated this in the end of DDD when confronted.YMX states the same. So yes he forgets when he goes back BUT the TRAILER proves he once again learns down the road what happens and that inkling in his heart is what drives him to learn it in the first place. Also I'm pretty sure he has either read or possesses the Tome of Prophecy. 

 

 

Doesn't change the fact that BBS still happened and it wasn't rendered pointless by DDD. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

 

Did I say it never happened? No. I said DDD cheapened and retconned it. That's my whole point i'm getting at.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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Xehanort actively (and that's the key word) went out of the way to corrupt Terra for his own purposes, and was perfectly willing (with no sign of regret) to kill Ventus and Aqua should they interfere. Eraqus was extremely misguided and clearly in the wrong, but even he showed clear regret over what he considered to be a "necessary evil".

It's merely a means of survival, he's hasn't killed Terra, Terra is still alive and submitted to him by allowing himself to be overcome with evil himself. Just like a parasite. Are parasites evil? No, not really. They just do whatever means necessary to survive, it's an instinct. MX specifically said in reference to the darkness, "channel" and Terra was too naive and weak to do this.

Members of ISIS are severely misguided, would you consider them to be evil? I would. Matter of fact Xehanort is merely a scientist, experimenting with light and darkness, just like scientists now experiment with animals for gain. If Xehanort is successful, then he will have created true harmony between light and darkness. Killing is not Xehanort's primary intention, just as killing isn't a soldier's primary intention. Eraqus is severely-narrow minded, which has arguably allowed his mind to become more corrupted than Xehanort's. Eraqus goes out of his way to kill Ventus for something as little as a possibility, which Flaming Lea has already pointed out to be fatally flawed. Xehanort harms Aqua and Terra in self defence, as you can clearly see in the Keyblade Graveyard it is Terra who attacks first. 

Edited by DemyxIsBest

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Did I say it never happened? No. I said DDD cheapened and retconned it. That's my whole point i'm getting at.

you can say that about almost everything in DDD though, why draw attention specifically to this?

I think everyone knows DDD made all the previous games practically meaningless

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you can say that about almost everything in DDD though, why draw attention specifically to this?

I think everyone knows DDD made all the previous games practically meaningless

That's my whole point. He needs to work on his continuity. It's very weak and cheapens the story. 

 

 

 

But, he heard that Xehanort found a way to create the X-Blade a different way. Maybe Eraqus was not sure if this way was the correct way. Maybe he believed that Xehanort just found another method of doing so and he decided to kill Ventus to prevent it. What if he thought that Ventus was one of seven that Xehanort had already prepared in BBS and also prepared 13 darknesses? It was in the moment and decided to do what he thought was right at that moment when Ventus returned.

In BBS it was stated in the reports that was the one true way ( I pure light vs 1 pure darkness).It NEVER said he was attempting a different way.There was never any 'prepared 7 lights and 13 darknesses either in BBS.You are grasping for straws.

.

Like I said ....my point being these retcons in DDD create plotholes and poor continuity.

Edited by Flaming Lea

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In BBS it was stated in the reports that was the one true way ( I pure light vs 1 pure darkness).It NEVER said he was attempting a different way.There was never any 'prepared 7 lights and 13 darknesses either in BBS.You are grasping for straws.

 

I never said he did prepare seven and thirteen. What I'm saying is what if Master Eraqus thought that Xehanort was planning that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.

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I never said he did prepare seven and thirteen. What I'm saying is what if Master Eraqus thought that Xehanort was planning that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.

 

I never said he did prepare seven and thirteen. What I'm saying is what if Master Eraqus thought that Xehanort was planning that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.

Nowhere is that even implied or said that was a worry.. He thought killing Ventus was the only answer.If he thought he was only one of 7 lights that would make no sense anyways. To him killing Ven was the only way to prevent this.

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No excuse for such blatant stupidity. He knew the one and only correct way. It was just Nomura's way of explaining his huge retcon. Poorly done at that.

While you think it's poorly done, I personally think it's ok. But that's just my opinion.

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It's merely a means of survival, he's hasn't killed Terra, Terra is still alive and submitted to him by allowing himself to be overcome with evil himself. Just like a parasite. Are parasites evil? No, not really. They just do whatever means necessary to survive, it's an instinct. MX specifically said in reference to the darkness, "channel" and Terra was too naive and weak to do this.

Members of ISIS are severely misguided, would you consider them to be evil? I would. Matter of fact Xehanort is merely a scientist, experimenting with light and darkness, just like scientists now experiment with animals for gain. If Xehanort is successful, then he will have created true harmony between light and darkness. Killing is not Xehanort's primary intention, just as killing isn't a soldier's primary intention. Eraqus is severely-narrow minded, which has arguably allowed his mind to become more corrupted than Xehanort's. Eraqus goes out of his way to kill Ventus for something as little as a possibility, which Flaming Lea has already pointed out to be fatally flawed. Xehanort harms Aqua and Terra in self defence, as you can clearly see in the Keyblade Graveyard it is Terra who attacks first.

 

A parasite (ie. bugs or bacteria) isn't sapient, therefore cannot make judgments regarding morality, therefore cannot be evil.

 

Xehanort (who is a sapient being) displays a combination of malicious intent and complete lack of regret and empathy, and - despite knowing his actions would bring catastrophic ruin to existence - actively chooses to do so anyway, personally and deliberately ruining the lives of many people in the process. That combination is what makes him evil. (I'm not going to get into the ethics of animal experimentation, since it's a sticky issue and not the point of discussion here).

 

You cannot seriously look at his actions throughout BBS (and the actions of his proxies throughout the series) and tell me "oh he just did that out of self-defense". That's not how it works.

Edited by Ultima Spark

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A parasite (ie. bugs or bacteria) isn't sapient, therefore cannot make judgments regarding morality, therefore cannot be evil.

 

Xehanort (who is a sapient being) displays a combination of malicious intent and complete lack of regret and empathy, and - despite knowing his actions would bring catastrophic ruin to existence - actively chooses to do so anyway, personally and deliberately ruining the lives of many people in the process. That combination is what makes him evil. (I'm not going to get into the ethics of animal experimentation, since it's a sticky issue and not the point of discussion here).

 

You cannot seriously look at his actions throughout BBS (and the actions of his proxies throughout the series) and tell me "oh he just did that out of self-defense". That's not how it works.

I'm not saying he isn't bad, but there's a difference between being bad and being wholly evil. I do not believe MX to be wholly evil.

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Maybe Xehanort knew that Aqua was going to defeat Vanitas/Ventus, thus destroying the x-blade and making Ven's heart go back to Sora again.  Maybe that's what he was after, (plus Terra as a vessel) since if Master Xehanort's plan didn't fail, then a lot would had been changed in the rest of the games.

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No excuse for such blatant stupidity. He knew the one and only correct way. It was just Nomura's way of explaining his huge retcon. Poorly done at that.

I don't think so. Even BBS's part about the X-Blade was convoluted. The whole thing started with MX wanting another vessel, which was Ventus.

 

He wanted Ventus as his vessel which is why he wanted him to release his darkness by piting him against Heartless. That apparently couldn't happen. So instead MX made Vanitas from Ventus's Darkness.

 

Fastforward to the MoM exam. Why hasn't MX used Vanitas as his vessel? I mean, did he change his mind or something? Where did the sudden fascination about the X-Blade come from? Why did he need Vanitas to do it? Even if he wanted to prepare Roxas for that, why use him? He was already filled with Darkness himself, why not just go attack Eraqus who seems be filled with Light?

 

Thing is, the whole X-Blade was just a side thing. His first and most important objective was finding a vessel. He was just curious about the process of the X-Blade. After all, Eraqus did say that MX wanted to risk an apocalypse out of sheer curiosity.

 

Furthermore, no where in this thread does anyone provide a source about Xehanort and Eraqus knowing about the 7 vs. 13. Their master just told them about the story, we don't know how much he told them either. We only know that Xehanort was fascinated by it. 

"Maybe because it happened before that" isn't proof. This is all speculation.

Edited by Sorarocks93

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I'm not saying he isn't bad, but there's a difference between being bad and being wholly evil. I do not believe MX to be wholly evil.

 

Dude, seriously, what point are you trying to make? I'm completely failing to see how Xehanort, as presented throughout the series, is intended to be anything other than completely evil by this point.

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