I wanna ask you guys some questions and please answer it with honesty before replying to any of the other points I'll mention later.

 

Before the announcementdebut of the handheld entries in the Kingdom Hearts series(mainly the PSPDS3DS ones not Chain of Memories).Have you ever thought once(before you even see the secret ending of KH2 or the announcement of the other handheld games) That there were more keyblade wielders than the ones you already know?That the series would involve time travel?Or a hidden 14th member in the organization?Or the Tome of Prophecy?Or the Foretellers?Or the fact Xehanort was actually an old man?Or the fact that the main goal of the organization is to have 13 Xehanort clones to make the 13 darknesses?

 

I want an honest answer without trying to find your way around it.Don't mention the secret endings I mean before you even see them.

 

 

Personally....I didn't.Even in the wildest speculations I made when I was first introduced to the series in 20052006 and even after I finished KH2,KH1 and Chain of Memories

 

 

Don't get me wrong I love complex stories when they're well written like in the Metal Gear franchise.But damn I really miss the old simple times when the KH series was more about Sora's adventures and the simple Sora Vs the darkness plot that was going on before all the additions we saw later.Sure certain things like Master Xehanort being old and Xion are things that were bound to happen but they could've kept it a bit more simple and confined without cramming too much stuff and  too much convolution into the story.

 

There can be a charm in simplicity(after all there is a song called simple and clean) too y'know.Heck games like Final Fantasy 6 has pretty simple straight forward plots but they were effective,epic and emotional.

 

And no I'm not stupid.I do understand everything I've played so far in the series up until the confusing elements were introduced through the hidden cutscenes in the HD collections and KH x(chi) where it was too much

 

You can only add so much complexity into a plot before it bites the plot back in the worst time possible.some additions felt like they were added just to make the story look more deeper than it actually is when really it didn't need to be any deeper than it already is.I doubt we needed time travel,I doubt we needed the mark of mastery test,I doubt we needed this amount of extra keyblade wielders and extra entries in the series just to move a plot that was already moving.

 

MGS 4 was released and concluded the Solid Snake saga without needing to wait for MGS Peace Walker,Ground Zeroes or Phantom Pain to happen.Those extra entries could've been saved for later explanations after KH3.We could've gotten KH3 a long time ago even if the main team was busy with FF15.We could've walked the MGS4 route,conclude the Xehanort saga and then have a breather to explain all the things that happened in between instead of cramming stuff as soon as you think of them Nomura.

 

The reason games like Final Fantasy XIII failed on the plot department was because they crammed in so much stuff into the plot without any logical explanations or threads pieces that connects them together to form a cohesive well-thought story.They crammed details inside the details of the details to the point you can barely make of any of the...well...details.

 

I know that the actual big reason for this many entries is money I know....but still.The series could've avoided so much of the flack that it gets from either critics or non-fans and fans of the series if Nomura just took a breath and continued with the simpler yet charming old method of story telling that the first three entries had.

 

Sure KH2 did have some complicated moments,but they were understandable and weren't that much of a mess unlike Birth by Sleep and the Time travel in DDD

 

 

Hopefully after the HD collections.Nomura will finally learn to count to number 3 without calculating every possible number around it before getting to the obvious equation.

 

 

I dunno why I keep writing those aside from my love for the series and wanting it to grow,since I know just like the previous ones I made I'm sure flame wars will ensue,I will be called an idiot and angry fans will tell me I'm a whiner that can't be satisfied.But whatever I need to share my thoughts with someone on the internet so.....there ya go

 

 

I don't think you'll get flack, that's a pretty common sentiment especially among older KH fans

 

There's elegance in simplicity, and KH has definitely lost it

The only thing I miss from back then is how it wasn't all about xehanort.

 

KH1 has my favourite plot.

Disney villains gathering together in hollow bastion discussing how  to carry their plans. And Ansem acting in the shadows, doing things his way are things I loved.

 

Aside from that, I think it just got better.

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by Sakuraba Neku

The only thing I miss from back then is how it wasn't all about xehanort.

 

KH1 has my favourite plot.

Disney villains gathering together in hollow bastion discussing how  to carry their plans. And Ansem acting in the shadows, doing things his way are things I loved.

 

I really missed that.I loved how the Disney villains in KH1 were actually relevant to the plot instead of being just a boss battle in their worlds like what they devolved into later

 

Sure there is only so much you can do with the plot of their movies but some things can be worked around with

Edited December 2, 201410 yr by Smash Mega Koopa

I really missed that.I loved how the Disney villains in KH1 were actually relevant to the plot instead of being just a boss battle in their worlds like what they devolved into later

 

Sure there is only so much you can do with the plot of their movies but some things can be worked around with

I think everyone can agree that we need a League of Disney Villains 2.0 for KH3

KH has lost a lot of its Disney charm. 

I felt that BBS had a lot of potential to incorporate that Disney Villain like KHI, but it dropped the ball 

I see where you're coming from. I personally feel the "Xehanort Saga" should have ended with KHII. Well, the story progression anyway. KHII's ending felt like a conclusion and a great one at that. It felt complete. But then the secret ending and questions and blah blah blah. Personally I take no issue with BBS, I love that game but I sometimes ponder if it would've been better off as a spinoff instead of cannon. Don't get me wrong, love BBS's story entirely, just a thought. 358/2 was absolutely unnecessary but it was good for what it was. The series, for me, took a major hit with Re:Coded and especially DDD. Re:Coded was even more unnecessary and had no business existing and DDD just lost the true spirit of what I grew to love about KH: simplicity and diversity. Again all my opinions, none of these games are unplayable, they just felt disconnected from what the original three games had embodied. And the irony is that they're all supposed to connect KH.

 

P.S. I wouldn't call FFXIII a failure, it was pretty damn successful and personally remains a favorite. It's story was gripping, linear yes, but that was the idea: targets on the loose, neither side wants anything to do with them, they only have each other, their dreams and a mission. The game wasn't perfect but a failure is kinda harsh.

I wanna ask you guys some questions and please answer it with honesty before replying to any of the other points I'll mention later.

 

Before the announcementdebut of the handheld entries in the Kingdom Hearts series(mainly the PSPDS3DS ones not Chain of Memories).Have you ever thought once(before you even see the secret ending of KH2 or the announcement of the other handheld games) That there were more keyblade wielders than the ones you already know?That the series would involve time travel?Or a hidden 14th member in the organization?Or the Tome of Prophecy?Or the Foretellers?Or the fact Xehanort was actually an old man?Or the fact that the main goal of the organization is to have 13 Xehanort clones to make the 13 darknesses?

 

I want an honest answer without trying to find your way around it.Don't mention the secret endings I mean before you even see them.

 

 

Personally....I didn't.Even in the wildest speculations I made when I was first introduced to the series in 20052006 and even after I finished KH2,KH1 and Chain of Memories

 

 

Don't get me wrong I love complex stories when they're well written like in the Metal Gear franchise.But damn I really miss the old simple times when the KH series was more about Sora's adventures and the simple Sora Vs the darkness plot that was going on before all the additions we saw later.Sure certain things like Master Xehanort being old and Xion are things that were bound to happen but they could've kept it a bit more simple and confined without cramming too much stuff and  too much convolution into the story.

 

There can be a charm in simplicity(after all there is a song called simple and clean) too y'know.Heck games like Final Fantasy 6 has pretty simple straight forward plots but they were effective,epic and emotional.

 

And no I'm not stupid.I do understand everything I've played so far in the series up until the confusing elements were introduced through the hidden cutscenes in the HD collections and KH x(chi) where it was too much

 

You can only add so much complexity into a plot before it bites the plot back in the worst time possible.some additions felt like they were added just to make the story look more deeper than it actually is when really it didn't need to be any deeper than it already is.I doubt we needed time travel,I doubt we needed the mark of mastery test,I doubt we needed this amount of extra keyblade wielders and extra entries in the series just to move a plot that was already moving.

 

MGS 4 was released and concluded the Solid Snake saga without needing to wait for MGS Peace Walker,Ground Zeroes or Phantom Pain to happen.Those extra entries could've been saved for later explanations after KH3.We could've gotten KH3 a long time ago even if the main team was busy with FF15.We could've walked the MGS4 route,conclude the Xehanort saga and then have a breather to explain all the things that happened in between instead of cramming stuff as soon as you think of them Nomura.

 

The reason games like Final Fantasy XIII failed on the plot department was because they crammed in so much stuff into the plot without any logical explanations or threads pieces that connects them together to form a cohesive well-thought story.They crammed details inside the details of the details to the point you can barely make of any of the...well...details.

 

I know that the actual big reason for this many entries is money I know....but still.The series could've avoided so much of the flack that it gets from either critics or non-fans and fans of the series if Nomura just took a breath and continued with the simpler yet charming old method of story telling that the first three entries had.

 

Sure KH2 did have some complicated moments,but they were understandable and weren't that much of a mess unlike Birth by Sleep and the Time travel in DDD

 

 

Hopefully after the HD collections.Nomura will finally learn to count to number 3 without calculating every possible number around it before getting to the obvious equation.

 

 

I dunno why I keep writing those aside from my love for the series and wanting it to grow,since I know just like the previous ones I made I'm sure flame wars will ensue,I will be called an idiot and angry fans will tell me I'm a whiner that can't be satisfied.But whatever I need to share my thoughts with someone on the internet so.....there ya go

I knew about other key blade wielders when xigbar talks about them in kh2 he says "you don't look like half the hero the others were"

I knew about other key blade wielders when xigbar talks about them in kh2 he says "you don't look like half the hero the others were"

I mean before you even saw the secret ending of the announcement of BBS or anything about the KH handheld games outside of CoM

 

Cuz what Xigbar said before that can mean anything really

Edited December 3, 201410 yr by Smash Mega Koopa

Yeah it was cool simple but for people like me who came from Final Fantasy to KH, I love it but I do agree it's lost some Disney pazazzz but let's hope and pray KH3 brings it back because now "Nothing Is Off-Limits"

I see where you're coming from. I personally feel the "Xehanort Saga" should have ended with KHII. Well, the story progression anyway. KHII's ending felt like a conclusion and a great one at that. It felt complete. But then the secret ending and questions and blah blah blah. Personally I take no issue with BBS, I love that game but I sometimes ponder if it would've been better off as a spinoff instead of cannon. Don't get me wrong, love BBS's story entirely, just a thought. 358/2 was absolutely unnecessary but it was good for what it was. The series, for me, took a major hit with Re:Coded and especially DDD. Re:Coded was even more unnecessary and had no business existing and DDD just lost the true spirit of what I grew to love about KH: simplicity and diversity. Again all my opinions, none of these games are unplayable, they just felt disconnected from what the original three games had embodied. And the irony is that they're all supposed to connect KH.

 

P.S. I wouldn't call FFXIII a failure, it was pretty damn successful and personally remains a favorite. It's story was gripping, linear yes, but that was the idea: targets on the loose, neither side wants anything to do with them, they only have each other, their dreams and a mission. The game wasn't perfect but a failure is kinda harsh.

The only reason Final Fantasy XIII was so "successful" was due to all the hype it had around it. A lot of people wanted a true Final Fantasy game at that time since X-2 and FF XII failed to deliver what made FF a good series. That was the only reason it sold so many copies. Because of hype and nothing else.

 

As for this thread. I agree with you on some parts. I really wish that the mmore Disney characters were involved with the plot of the series. Because after KH1, the Disney villians only served to be bosses and be part of their side story of the worlds they live in. But I really hate how minor the Final Fantasy characters are starting to become in each entry of the KH games. After KH1 and KH2 it just feels like SE completely forgot about them. I mean heck the only FF character we got to see in BBS was Zack Fair from FF VII: Crises Core. It really makes em wish that SE went with their original concept of having Leon and the gang appear in Radient Garden as young children before it was scraped. ANd than it got even worse in DDD when there was no FF characters at all.

Oddly enough, my true interest in the games coincided around the time the games starting getting needlessly complicated. That might be because I'm a newer fan who got into the series around the time Days and BBS came out and I'd spoiled myself silly about all of it. Of course, I started with KH1 since it's the first, and it was the only KH game I had at the time. I played it in the past and I was sort of meh about it, but I only got the urge to try it again later because I knew there was a lot more to it than that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the charm in simplicity. It's something I abide by myself, and KH1 has a self-contained charm that even I appreciate. Had the series stopped there I probably would've just been, "Well that was a fun game" and then totally forgot about it -- I'm not a huge Disney fan and the Final Fantasy side (which admittedly was initially my only draw to it) is limited to cameos and the whole saving-the-world thing.

 

However, the games did not stop there. I didn't really need more of the same. KH isn't the same as, say, Pokemon, where each installment is identical at its core, but it's totally cool because that core is awesome and actually improves with each game. KH has a storyline to follow, and it initially wasn't one I was... terribly interested in. It was enough to keep my attention, but for me it wasn't anything I'd put on a pedestal. But since I spoiled myself, I kept going since I know things ran deeper than what was in KH1.

 

Do I think needless complication is the only way to keep me interested? Absolutely not. It's also obvious Nomura is writing most everything by the seat of his pants. He knows how to keep us guessing, but that's only because not even he knows where things will go next. Since things aren't always planned out, of course things will be suddenly revealed as, oh this is how it actually is, not what you thought. That's a pretty unfair way to keep players guessing, but that's just how things are going and I've learned to just accept it. It's better than getting worked up over something I have no control over.

 

Though, there are some things he's planned and many more that wound up working out. The "Nobodies actually have hearts" thing wasn't pulled out of the ass, considering how much attention went into the Organization questioning if they have hearts after all -- if it was a definitive No, they wouldn't have given it so much focus. Same with the keyblade wielders being a knighthood, and that Sora (and Mickey and Riku) aren't the only ones. That's always been a Your Mileage May Vary sort of thing since it supposedly lessens the importance of having a Keyblade (I don't agree, but that's for another time). Was introducing this element necessary? I dunno. Did it make things more complicated? Probably. Am I cool with it? Totally.

 

Screw the time travel, though, but that's only because I don't like the trope in general. It's something I deliberately need to not think deeply about, lest I find holes, but that's a complaint for another time.

I mean before you even saw the secret ending of the announcement of BBS or anything about the KH handheld games outside of CoM

 

Cuz what Xigbar said before that can mean anything really

this was before the secret ending its like one of the only xigbar lines before they made the handhelds

I didn't mind the direction KH was taking until KH3D and time travel and all the weird stuff that was introduced in that game.Nobodies with hearts might make sense I guess,but to me it ruined the nobodies a bit and it was unnecessary.I just hope that Nomura or whoever is writing the script of KH3 knows what he's doing. 

 

I agree that 358/2 Days didn't need Xion,I'm sure the story could have been much better without her,but I still like it the way it is. I like all the stuff that was introduced in BBS,it made things more interesting and I actually didn't like the simple story of Kingdom Hearts 1,I didn't care about the Disney Villains or Sora unlocking the Keyholes to save the worlds,its because of all the other games that I can enjoy KH1 now. We now know a bit more about Ansem and Maleficent motivations in that game a lot of stuff that happened in KH1 connects with the other games like Roxas and Namine being born because of Sora becoming a Heartless and its all interesting,but as its stand-alone game KH1 is not that great to me.

I agree with you whole-heartidly, but I think it's because the 1st games were on console. They were allowed to stretch the plot, and have more actual revelent plot. The newer games are on handheld, and the plot gets condensed, and therefore harder to elaborate. I think KH3 will be simpler, and the best game of the series. Especially considering, if you followed up on the series, you pretty much know what is going to happen.

Firetruck MX.

 

Ever since he showed up, everything's become a convoluted, depressing, retcon-riddled Aizen-fest.

 

He's also contributed the least out of all the 'Norts; Ansem SOD = original bad@$$ery, Xemnas & AX/Terranort = tragedy, and even YMX = moral grayness, but MX himself = Bigger Bad just for the sake of having one.

Edited December 4, 201410 yr by Alan Smithee

Sometimes I like to pretend KH1, CoM, and KH2 are the only KH games because for me they make a pretty enjoyable trilogy. I feel like the plot's scale grows naturally and accordingly throughout those three games to where the large scale story of KH2 feels like a logical place for the series to end on.

From KH1's humble beginnings to KH2's grand finale. Then SE kept building off that grand finale with Days, BBS, Coded, etc etc.

I started my life as a Kingdom Hearts fan in 2006 when I got my hands on Kingdom Hearts II, and since naturally I was curious about the games that preceded that one, I got the first game and Chain Of Memories afterwards, and I felt amazed by the plot and really enjoyed the way the story was told.  But never in my wildest dreams would I have thought that the series would evolve into what is has become today.

 

So okay, sure, Nomura could have just made Kingdom Hearts III a long time ago, but my personal standing is that if he hadn't done what he has done so far in the series, I think it wouldn't be as beloved as it is today.  I mean, think about it.  When you talk about Kingdom Hearts with someone about the story, there's endless hours of discussion to pull out of because of all the story material we have so far.  Having all these story threads leaves questions in our minds about how it all connects together and such.

 

I personally never expected anything about the Keyblade War, and I never expected for Xehanort to be the one who made the events of all the other games ensue. There's so much depth in the Kingdom Hearts series that it is really something to behold.  It's just as intriguing as a novel book series or a great anime show you love to watch.  It has drama, it has suspense, it has humor, and at its core, it has heart.  And well, I'm personally happy that the Kingdom Hearts series has grown so much into what it is today, because just look at how we're all increasingly hyped for Kingdom Hearts III!  Old and new fans are flocking in by the second!  Don't get me wrong though, I don't mind simplicity, but God, I love a complex and intriguing plot, and the Kingdom Hearts series has strongly delivered!

 

But yeah, once again, to answer your question, I never expected for the series to unravel the way it has. I think none of us expected any of this.

I think the idea of hero vs darkness is getting old and that's why I am really happy about what happened on KH until Re:Coded, time traveling? Are you kidding me? This idea was used in many stories and it made the story less interesting right now.

But I agree on the part where the Disney villains became useless and ineffective to the main story unlike KHI. The villains from KHII and beyond started being villains only for their own worlds and it never relates to the actual story which is really sad.

Edited December 13, 201410 yr by Master Keeper

I think the idea of hero vs darkness is getting old

 

And it only reinforces Eraqus's "absolutes" (you know, the same stuff the series has been preaching against since COM).

 

time traveling? Are you kidding me? This idea was used in many stories and it made the story less interesting right now.

 

And on top of that, MX stole it from David Xanatos (Remember his "self-made man" plan?).

Yeah, I feel you. But, I'm much more happy with how the series is now, even with the time traveling (ESPECIALLY with the time traveling!). It just goes to show how a series can grow up and evolve along side you. It feels really natural and I can't wait to see how it will keep developing!

 

But yeah, I do remember when the series had a different...I guess "vibe" to it. I don't know, almost as if there was a little more of a almost "haunting" yet mystical and wondrous feeling that came with the titles of KH1, CoM/Re:CoM, and II. It was a little more black and white back then, but there was a bit more of the black part too. The good kind that felt akin to...I guess traveling DisneyLand at night...as a hologram...where all the characters came to life...and Maleficent was trying to take over the world-Yeah, I definitely need the next Kingdom Keeper book in the series. It's confusing my nostalgia.

 

Point is, it had that kind of feeling to it, like you were going to a Disney based theme park in some far off land, but it was dark out, you were mostly alone, and you didn't know who you would come across on your journey. Sort of fit the tagline of "You never know who you'll run into next."

Oddly enough, my true interest in the games coincided around the time the games starting getting needlessly complicated. That might be because I'm a newer fan who got into the series around the time Days and BBS came out and I'd spoiled myself silly about all of it. Of course, I started with KH1 since it's the first, and it was the only KH game I had at the time. I played it in the past and I was sort of meh about it, but I only got the urge to try it again later because I knew there was a lot more to it than that.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the charm in simplicity. It's something I abide by myself, and KH1 has a self-contained charm that even I appreciate. Had the series stopped there I probably would've just been, "Well that was a fun game" and then totally forgot about it -- I'm not a huge Disney fan and the Final Fantasy side (which admittedly was initially my only draw to it) is limited to cameos and the whole saving-the-world thing.

 

However, the games did not stop there. I didn't really need more of the same. KH isn't the same as, say, Pokemon, where each installment is identical at its core, but it's totally cool because that core is awesome and actually improves with each game. KH has a storyline to follow, and it initially wasn't one I was... terribly interested in. It was enough to keep my attention, but for me it wasn't anything I'd put on a pedestal. But since I spoiled myself, I kept going since I know things ran deeper than what was in KH1.

 

Do I think needless complication is the only way to keep me interested? Absolutely not. It's also obvious Nomura is writing most everything by the seat of his pants. He knows how to keep us guessing, but that's only because not even he knows where things will go next. Since things aren't always planned out, of course things will be suddenly revealed as, oh this is how it actually is, not what you thought. That's a pretty unfair way to keep players guessing, but that's just how things are going and I've learned to just accept it. It's better than getting worked up over something I have no control over.

 

Though, there are some things he's planned and many more that wound up working out. The "Nobodies actually have hearts" thing wasn't pulled out of the ass, considering how much attention went into the Organization questioning if they have hearts after all -- if it was a definitive No, they wouldn't have given it so much focus. Same with the keyblade wielders being a knighthood, and that Sora (and Mickey and Riku) aren't the only ones. That's always been a Your Mileage May Vary sort of thing since it supposedly lessens the importance of having a Keyblade (I don't agree, but that's for another time). Was introducing this element necessary? I dunno. Did it make things more complicated? Probably. Am I cool with it? Totally.

 

Screw the time travel, though, but that's only because I don't like the trope in general. It's something I deliberately need to not think deeply about, lest I find holes, but that's a complaint for another time.

About the time travel- 

For the most part, I'm in the same boat as you where I feel like time travel is overused and everything. But I actually didn't mind the use of it in DDD, because they set up specific rules for it so that it couldn't be abused and stuff. Sure it was a bit of a mess (still better than FF8's time travel though) but the way they left it, I almost feel like they can get away with giving it a backseat in KH3, and making the main story about other stuff. 

I stopped caring.

 

KH1 is a lot more mysterious and magical-ish, I guess you can call it, by itself compared to other titles, but then I realize that a) this series would be boring if it kept being like that for as long as it has gotten and b) as far the Disney villains go, the original ones are ten times more interesting, so I'm glad they're the main focus.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the magic may not necessary be all there anymore and everything has gotten a lot more complex, but as long as I'm still enthralled the same way I have been since I got into the series, I don't mind.

Why is everyone getting upset about Time Travel in DDD? It was already a concept in KH2 with Timeless River. Same with the datascape in Space Paranoids. I personally saw the series heading in this direction when I played KH2 for the first time. All they did with Re:Coded and DDD was give those plot points more depth. Do I enjoy KH1 more? Sure it's simple and clean (; but with the secret endings and Chain of Memories it was clear this series was just getting started. 

I definitely see your point......KH is still a cool series, but you can't deny that it's become a insatiable magnet of plot twists, plot holes, theories, recycled models, and a bazzilion Xehanorts.

 

Yet, I'm still all over this franchise......must be crazy.

Why is everyone getting upset about Time Travel in DDD? It was already a concept in KH2 with Timeless River. Same with the datascape in Space Paranoids. I personally saw the series heading in this direction when I played KH2 for the first time. All they did with Re:Coded and DDD was give those plot points more depth. Do I enjoy KH1 more? Sure it's simple and clean (; but with the secret endings and Chain of Memories it was clear this series was just getting started. 

 

KH2's time travel = within reason and limited to 1 world.

 

DDD's time travel = out-of-nowhere series-retcon only beneficial to MX while making everyone else look weak.

Edited January 7, 201510 yr by Alan Smithee